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Old March 7, 2018, 09:20 PM   #26
mehavey
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Quote:
"It can be screwed on, sweated on, or installed with an
optional dovetail lock that fits into standard 3/8” dovetails."
Given no existing sight/dovetail... I'd think that's a bit more gunsmithing work than the OP's in game for.

But getting a front sight put on is always an option.
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Old March 8, 2018, 03:28 PM   #27
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Exactly! ^^^ As tobnpr explained, that's why you'd install an appropriate Williams front sight. Duh...
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Old March 8, 2018, 05:58 PM   #28
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We're going through an awful lotta hoops here to "fix" a gun
to function against what it was expressly designed for.
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Old March 8, 2018, 07:24 PM   #29
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Found a pic rail mount rear peep for ya:

http://www.talleymanufacturing.com/P...eep-Sight.aspx
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Old March 9, 2018, 12:15 AM   #30
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Yeah, I kind of screwed the pooch to get everything started....I've also considered just selling the gun, hopefully learning my lesson, and then looking around for something else. I got the gun for under $300, so it's not like I've broken the bank or anything, and if I can't get exactly what I paid for it, I can't imagine I'll lose that much.

Hmmm...I always thought "plinking" described what someone was doing when shooting tin cans and soda bottles, whether or not that was with a .22 or a 50 BMG !!
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Old March 9, 2018, 04:45 AM   #31
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Just a little bit of trivia,
Around 40 years old a man's eye will flatten out, and you WILL loose the ability to focus in three planes.
I didn't believe this for a second, until it happened to me...

I hated aperture (peep) sights when I was younger. I've always worn glasses, and glasses with aperture sights never worked for me...
I was shooting shortly before 40th birthday no issues at all.
Winter came with the 40th, didn't shoot seriously for about 3 months, couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle.

A trip to the eye doctor told the tale, my eyes had flattened and I'd lost the ability to focus in three planes, couldn't see the rear sight, front sight & Target at the same time.
My prescription changed 4 times in one year.
Crap on a cracker!

Interestingly enough, without my glasses, and with a small aperture I could shoot without glasses.
For some reason, looking through that little hole clears the sight picture up.
I can't see crap without my glasses unless it's through a aperture sight, which makes no sense at all to me, but it does work.

Almost everything I shoot now has either magnified optics or aperture sights as I approach 60...
I've had to order ocular lenses for a couple of the optics to compensate for my vision, which keeps people from wanting to shoot my favorites!
That's another argument for high quality American made optics, after explaining the issue, the customer service guy said 'No Problem! We see it all the time.'
Leupold installed my new lenses, returned the optic to me at no charge!
Cleaned, calibrated, tightened up and gas charged again for ZERO dollars, they have a customer in me for life!

As for installing a front sight BLOCK, a fine file and file guide will make that flat spot, it doesn't have to be a milling machine job.
I'd mount the barreled action between centers on a milling machine table, the cut the flat for the front sight block, but also crank the table and mark the receiver or barrel for the rear sight.
Centers means you are precisely lined up with the bore instead of outside profile of barrel and/or receiver.

This is one of those old gunsmith tricks, centers are super fast way to jig up and 100% guarantee you are dead center of the bore.
Sights/optic mounts are a gunsmiths bread & butter, and there is nothing like centers on a long mill bed for 100% accuracy in about 5 minutes set up time.

You simply would not believe how many receivers are NOT drilled concentric with the bore.
I often think the reason so many rear sights are mounted on the barrel is because they KNOW they are going to get the receiver screwed up.

I perfer the extra sight radius of a receiver mounted rear sight, but it MUST be in line with the bore, and a milling machine table makes that possible almost instantly.
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Old March 9, 2018, 04:58 AM   #32
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As for selling a rifle that is in a caliber you want...
I'm not from the 'Disposable' generation.

If I need a particular height mount to clear an optic, I cut the stock and build a comb insert that supports my cheek weld at the correct height. I don't trade the rifle because the cheek weld is wrong and I'm not shooting it well...

When it doesn't come with iron sights, I get them installed.
If it's got a barrel mounted rear sight, I remove it and install an aperture rear sight.

If I like the rifle, is make the rifle fit me regardless of the cost simply because it's MY rifle.
When I swing that sucker up and it instantly seats, cheek weld is perfect, sights line up like they are an extension of my body, I could give a crap less what it cost for that feeling!
It's as comfortable as old boots, as easy to get on target as pointing my finger, and as easy to shoot as drinking a cool glass of water on a hot day, that feeling is worth everything you go through!

Just make sure the rifle you start with is a quality piece so it stays with you for a lifetime.
It's going to be a life long friend when you get done...
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Old March 9, 2018, 05:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
my eyes had flattened and I'd lost the ability to focus in three planes, couldn't see the rear sight, front sight & Target.
Even the best eyes can't focus on "three planes" with acuity at the same time. The front sight on any iron sight has to be concentrated on foremost.

The advantage an aperture sight has over conventional irons is that it's unnecessary and counter-productive to attempt to contend with three planes. With a receiver (peep) sight mounted on a deer rifle, you look through the aperture and focus solely on the front sight as it relates to the target. You should never try to "center" the front sight with the aperture.

On a rifle used for hunting big game, some shooters remove any attendant disc and just use the "housing" (aka "ghost ring") to shoot through. Your eye will automatically center the front bead. This is why the peep sight is faster than regular open sights in acquiring a proper sight picture-no need to "square" the front sight with the notch in the rear before focusing on the bead relative to the target.

I'm almost 75 years old, am very near-sighted and always wore glasses but I can still use a peep sight effectively. Two years ago, I had cataracts removed from both eyes which, of course, helped make my vision much better.
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Old March 9, 2018, 06:17 PM   #34
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Quote:
On a rifle used for hunting big game, some shooters remove any
attendant disc and just use the "housing" to shoot through.
I used to pooh-pooh the "ghost ring" theory until I got an estate-sale 24" barrelled `94 Marlin in 357 that already had a Marbles' tang sight installed (but apparently none of the aperture disks).

What the heck, I've got my other`94 38Special heavy (200gr) loads. Try`em anyway w/ just the ghost ring.


(The one on the right)

At 100 yards: 2" (Hmmm......)

I then rummaged around in my "stuff" box and came up with a Marbles' 0.050" disk, screwed it on, and fired another five rounds.

At 100 yards: 2"

Even at this late date an old dog can be surprised.
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Old March 10, 2018, 02:50 AM   #35
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You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I many not have explained it correctly...

My eye doctor is a national match shooter, and he has 'MD' and a bunch of other letters behind his name, so I'm more inclined to take his version of things.

He was dead right about loosing the abilities at 40, he was dead right on how to remedy the issues, and he keeps me shooting pretty good...
And there is that whole medical school issue, so between him and some random internet poster, I'll stick with him.
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Old March 10, 2018, 09:21 AM   #36
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Jeephammer: In fact, we can't focus on three planes at the same time. The optical physics make that impossible. Just doesn't work.

-- BUT --

While you're still only truly focused at a single point, the small aperture reduces the divergent angle of the incoming light rays from near-to-far (which is what your eyeball's trying desperately to change shape to accommodate) to where the depth of field is dramatically extended before thing go blurry.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/79/32/ae/7...h-of-field.jpg
(Sorry about the long sentence. My 5th grade teacher would not approve)

It's the same thing/effect with camera f-stops when tightening down the lens aperture.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...iagram.svg.png
https://i.imgur.com/IFRun0e.gif


.

Last edited by mehavey; March 10, 2018 at 11:08 AM.
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Old March 10, 2018, 10:52 AM   #37
Don Fischer
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If you get the open sight with a receiver peep sight, do yourself a favor and take out the insert the pep is drilled in. Makes things about 300% better! You can see through it better and the light will concentrate in the center of the hole. much much faster to shoot and just as accurate!
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Old March 10, 2018, 11:24 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepHammer View Post
Just a little bit of trivia,
A trip to the eye doctor told the tale, my eyes had flattened and I'd lost the ability to focus in three planes, couldn't see the rear sight, front sight & Target at the same time. My prescription changed 4 times in one year. Crap on a cracker!

Interestingly enough, without my glasses, and with a small aperture I could shoot without glasses. For some reason, looking through that little hole clears the sight picture up. I can't see crap without my glasses unless it's through a aperture sight, which makes no sense at all to me, but it does work.
I suspect that you're far sighted as that condition generally makes itself apparent in one's early 40s. I am far sighted as well and at 70, I'm also 'blessed' with astigmatism in both eyes. I, however, still do most of my shooting with iron sights by using some optical principles I learned over the years and I'm still able to clearly see both my front sight and the target.

How? By understanding and using basic Optical principles to my benefit. Let's look at your 'interesting discovery' for a minute and you'll understand what I mean. It turns out that your small aperture is expanding your Depth of Field (DoF). Google 'Depth of Field' as you'll find it's a term most used in photography but the optical principle is of great benefit to us shooters as well.

In short, optically, the area in focus at a given setting is perceived as a zone rather than a plane. For example, when focusing on an object at 20ft, you might find that objects from 18-24ft are also in focus. It turns out that you can adjust the zone that is in focus by selecting the aperture size. This aperture must be close to the sensor / film / or your eye to affect the Depth of Field.

At a given lighting, the larger the aperture, the shorter the zone that is in focus and conversely, the smaller the aperture, the longer the zone. So, if one were to put, say a .042" diameter target aperture on a tang sight of one's rifle, snug up to the sight and sight through it, one would find that the Depth of Field was enormous. Like from nearer than your front sight to well past your target (even if it's 200yds away) so that everything within that field is clearly in focus.

Amazing!! Astounding!! Magic!! No, Optics.

That's why if you have a small aperture peep sight mounted on the rear of your receiver so you can get your eye close, ≈1" away, you can see your front sight and the target much better than just looking at both directly, DoF. However, if you're sighting through a larger aperture, like a normal size one on an AR, or the aperture is a few inches from your eye, the DoF is unchanged. Understanding optics, I use the principle of DoF to make a simple, free aid that allows me to keep using my semi-buckhorn sights and see the front sight and target clearly.

I simply take a piece of black electrical tape, a paper hole punch, and a small finishing nail and make a stick-on aperture for my shooting glasses. Punch out some 1/4" 'holes' from the electrical tape, take the finishing nail and put a small hole in the center of the tape circle, and stick them on the front of your shooting glasses where you sight through to shoot. The black tape circle seems to disappear as it's too close to your eye to focus on leaving a ghost like haze but the area in the center will magically appear to be sharp and clear. Sight through it and you'll magically see your sights and the target sharp and clear.

Here's an example of where to place the 'aperture' for a right handed shooter. You'll be amazed at the difference and it will cost you nothing to try it. Even though these are progress lens glasses and I'm looking through the 'distance' part, the small 'aperture' I've created near to my eye allows me to see the sights and my target clearly while not even noticing the black of the tape. Magic!!

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Old March 10, 2018, 05:55 PM   #39
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Quote:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I many not have explained it correctly...
Quote:
He (JeepHammer's eye doctor) was dead right about loosing the abilities at 40, he was dead right on how to remedy the issues, and he keeps me shooting pretty good...
And there is that whole medical school issue, so between him and some random internet poster, I'll stick with him.
I'm not some "random internet poster" (I was actually trying to be of some help to you) and I'm not the only one who shares my opinion (or me their's). The following are some quotations from a few accomplished shooters and hunters regarding the proper use of a receiver (peep) sight:

From author Jim Carmichel's book, The Modern Rifle: "...Hunting peeps can be amazingly fast. The trick of using them efficiently is learning to look through the rear aperture and not at it. This, of course, requires a considerably larger aperture than is normally used for target shooting. Also the closer the eye is to the peep the easier it is to see through it. The speed of a peep arrangement comes from the fact that the shooter doesn't have to consciously align the front and rear sights with the target. Just putting the front sight on target brings the rifle to bear because simply looking through the rear aperture automatically takes care of this part of the sight alignment picture."

From author Jack O'Connor's book, The Hunting Rifle: "...Today, most factory open sights have more seemly provisions for adjustment, but these still do not overcome the inherent optical deficiencies of the open sight. It requires the eye to focus on the rear sight, the front sight, and the target-all at different distances to the eye. This, of course, is an optical impossibility. Young eyes can make a stab at it; middle-age eyes cannot...The aperture sight makes more sense optically than the open sight since the eye looks through the rear sight, pays attention only to the front sight and the target. This is possible because the eye instinctively places objects at the point of strongest light-in this case the front sight in the center of the peep."

From author Craig Boddington's book, American Hunting Rifles: "...The problem with open sights is that the eye must attempt to focus on three objects in three different planes: the rear sight, the front sight, and the target. No human eye can do this all that well, but younger eyes do it a great deal better than, say, my eyes can! With open sights, it's absolutely essential that the front sight be horizontally centered in the rear sight, and that the front sight be nestled in the notch the same way every time.
"Aperture, or peep, sights operate on a totally different principle. As I said, these are optical sights. The sights consist of a blade or bead front and an open circle varying in diameter as a rear sight. The eye naturally centers the bead or tip of the blade in the middle of the open circle, so you never need to focus on, or even see, the rear sight. One plane is eliminated; all you have is the front sight and the target to worry about. This makes the aperture sight a great deal faster than an open sight. It's also much more suitable for older eyes, and significantly better in bad light."

And from author John Barsness's book, Obsessions of a Rifle Loony: "...Actually nobody can see both front and rear sights clearly, but the rear sight does 'grow hair' as we age. This is irrelevant, because only the front sight needs to be sharp, and on a bolt-action rifle the front sight is about three feet from our aiming eye. Even older hunters can normally focus on something a yard away, even if they can't read a newspaper without glasses. The rear sight can be as fuzzy as a musk ox, but as long as equal amount of fuzzy light show on either side of the front sight the bullet will go where aimed.
"An aperture (peep) sight makes focusing on the front sight even easier. The main thing is to use a big aperture. Most aperture sights come with at least one screw-in aperture with a small hole. These are OK for sighting-in but should be removed afterward, using only the threaded hole for aiming. With any aperture up to 2/10ths of an inch in diameter big-game accuracy is possible out to 200 yards or even more."
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Old March 10, 2018, 06:15 PM   #40
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Troops, the Greatest Generation used a peep/aperture for their main
battle rifle... and every battle rifle for the next 3/4 of a century.

ipso facto quad erat demonstrandum
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Old March 11, 2018, 12:14 AM   #41
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Man, this got real interesting in a thread about how an idiot (me) bought the wrong (very low-end) gun and was curious about how to remedy his foolishness.
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Old March 11, 2018, 05:02 AM   #42
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You didn't notice that it wasn't the gun you wanted?? And, you can't, for some reason send it back and get the model you wanted???

OK, if you're stuck, you're stuck...me, I would have not picked up the gun, and had the dealer send it back for the model I wanted, but that's just me...

Any competent gunsmith can install iron sights. Do be aware that your stock may not be the right comb height for best use of iron sights. This is the exact opposite of the problem with stocks made for use with iron sights.

As for one's eyes changing at 40? I'd read that, read articles about "old eyes and iron sights" etc. Never noticed it at all, at 40.

In my case, it wasn't till just before 60 that my eyes finally went bad....so I don't hold 40 as a hard and fast rule...but it will happen, sooner or later.
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Old March 11, 2018, 06:01 AM   #43
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I see pretty well close up, I guess you call that near sighted.
I used to be able to read the micro printing on $100 bills, but not past 40, I can see it, I can't read it.
I have astigmatism also, always suffered with it. I was one of those goofy looking guys with the headband & monocular on the firing line...

Don't know what you call it, not an eye doctor. No MD or DO behind my name.

I did notice the glacier glasses we wore to stop snow blindness had a bunch of pinholes in sheet metal for lenses and I often didn't need my rather strong glasses when I was in my 20s.
Couldn't see long distance, but it cleared up 50-75 yards in front of me pretty well.
It might be the same effect, don't know, didn't connect the dots back then.

I've spent a lot of time on Field Of View, but never considered Depth Of View past focus.
Might be why I'm better with a spotting scope than a camera.
(Never taken pictures of my fingers, my feet, etc with a spotting scope... )

You guys mull it over, the only way I can explain it is I used to have a particularly clear sight picture with open sights, I don't anymore, and as the eye doctor predicted, it happened right at my 40th birthday.
That's when I went on a tear buying high powered optics, which screwed with my field of view and I was often looking for a corrective rear ocular lense.

Lower powered optics, which I use the most of now, give my Field Of View back, and don't require corrective ocular lenses most times, and I switched to aperture rear sights.

I can't stress enough making the rifle FIT YOU!
The fad right now is for the flat back 'Black' rifles, but you will hit a lot more shots when your fundamentals are correct, and that means getting that comfortable, natural cheek weld with a correctly adjusted stock, getting that eye on level with your chosen sights.

As for iron sights, I vote Yes on anything but a bench queen.
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Old March 11, 2018, 08:35 AM   #44
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Have you considered a red dot as an alternative to a scope? Inexpensive, easy to install on your gun, lets you keep both eyes open for an extended sight picture, great for walk about style hunting, quick on target and very accurate.
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Old March 12, 2018, 12:23 AM   #45
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44AMP,

As I said in my original post, I bought the gun via private sale. The guy sent me many photos, represented everything clearly in all correspondence, and then drove a few hours to drop the gun off. I gave him my word I'd purchase it, so when I saw it, I felt it only fair that I hold up my end of the bargain.

I have no idea how I missed it -- multiple times. But I did. My bad, as the kids say. Or used to.
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