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Old January 9, 2020, 04:55 PM   #1
reynolds357
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Which cartridge to build???

I have a long action with 06 bolt face and magazine laying around that I need to build something on. It will do a little paper punching but mainly whitetail hunting at 450 yards or less. 24 to 26" heavy sporter barrel.
Due to many factors, I have narrowed it down to either:
280 Remington
280 AI
284 Winchester
284 Winchester GAP

The only reason I even entertain a 280 Remington is the fact I have never had one. I don't want another 284 AI because my last one saw not enough velocity difference to even remotely justify the hassle, but the 280 AI is a legitimate 125fps velocity increase. The rifle does not have to do multiple duty. Its not going to have to shoot varmints or bear.

Any thoughts?
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Old January 9, 2020, 05:38 PM   #2
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My opinion:
Taking a long action and making a short action shell fit it is working exactly backwards, so I would reject the 284 and all wildcats based on it. Same with all shells based on the 308. The 264 was made by Winchester to get close to the 270 but fit in a lever action or auto. It did that by using a fatter shell with a rebated rim to get very close to the 30-06 size shell. You have a 30-06 size action...........so what is wrong with a 30-06 base shell?


The 280 is very good as is the 270, and the 25-06 for that matter. If wildcatting is your cup of tea look hard at a 6.5-06.

I have several friends that own the 280 AIs and none of their rifles have actually impressed me enough to make me consider owning one. Seeing kills on Antelope, Deer and elk, none of them are any better then the kills I have made with my old 270 and in a few cases, not as good (probably because they drank the cool-aid and just had to use a target style bullet instead of a better made hunting bullet for their hunting)
Sure they work, but the pain in the neck needed to make brass and fire-form it is more then what ballistic advantage it gives is worth ---- to me anyway. You can buy Nosler 280 AI pre-formed, but not as inexpensively as you can get standard 270s and as I said, I can't see ANY advantage of how the 280 AI works in the field over the standard 270. (or a standard 30-06 either) And yes, I have seen them side by side on several occasions.

If I wanted to work on feed lips a bit and take 30 minutes to open a bolt face and extractor I would make a 7MM Rem Mag Mag long before I would make a 280 AI. The AI will hold one more round and in some actions 2 more, but I see no true advantage in that for a hunting rifle. That's just me however.

Anyone that thinks "AI" is thinking about extra speed, and the belted mag gives you that (and a bit more) with no pain in the neck hoop-jumping.

I have owned a lot of different belted magnum rifle in my life and I still own a 300 H&H and a 375H&H, both of which hold 3 in the mag, and both of which have never been shot empty in the game fields. Thinking back, I have never shot a belted mag rifle empty in over 50 years of hunting.

I do make as large a mag capacity as possible if I can, (example: most of the 9.3X62s I make) but that is just if I can for the reason "why not"....but I hunt with flintlocks and many times a Ruger #1, I don't actually have a need to lots of rounds in a hunting rifle. Again.........that's just me.

Lots of folks like to be the "real expert" by having something that is "unique", but in the real world, for deer, you probably could not make a better deer rifle then a standard 25-06. the 270 and the 280 hit harder and toss more bullet, but they don't kill a deer any better then a 25-06. Elk and bear.............those may be a reason I can see opting for a heavier bullet, but not on deer to be honest. Unique doesn't mean better. Not at all really.

I have killed more deer than I can count with 270s in the last 1/2 century and I also own a 25-06 with which I have killed about 25 deer and antelope combined in the last 15 years. Hit for hit, comparing bullets of good construction, on deer size game ....I can't actually see any difference at all.

The 25-06 kicks a bit less too.

Last edited by Wyosmith; January 9, 2020 at 05:44 PM.
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Old January 9, 2020, 05:41 PM   #3
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I've always thought that if the .280 had been produced before Jack O'Connor had gotten his .270, the .270 would have been DOA. The AI version is even better. That one gets my vote.
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Old January 9, 2020, 06:11 PM   #4
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8x57mm


As per the suggestions...
I recently assembled a 6.5-284 Norma on a long action. So, I am obviously biased. That would be my choice - especially with a long action on the table, since that's what the Norma version was intended for.

The .284 Win GAP caught my eye, though. I had seen that mentioned before, but never looked it up until now. It doesn't seem like a good idea, to me. It's designed to run one bullet, at one COAL. If your barrel doesn't like the 175 SMKs, you may be screwed.
It could be another Valkyrie-like chamber debacle.
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Old January 9, 2020, 06:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith View Post
My opinion:
Taking a long action and making a short action shell fit it is working exactly backwards, so I would reject the 284 and all wildcats based on it. Same with all shells based on the 308. The 264 was made by Winchester to get close to the 270 but fit in a lever action or auto. It did that by using a fatter shell with a rebated rim to get very close to the 30-06 size shell. You have a 30-06 size action...........so what is wrong with a 30-06 base shell?


The 280 is very good as is the 270, and the 25-06 for that matter. If wildcatting is your cup of tea look hard at a 6.5-06.

I have several friends that own the 280 AIs and none of their rifles have actually impressed me enough to make me consider owning one. Seeing kills on Antelope, Deer and elk, none of them are any better then the kills I have made with my old 270 and in a few cases, not as good (probably because they drank the cool-aid and just had to use a target style bullet instead of a better made hunting bullet for their hunting)
Sure they work, but the pain in the neck needed to make brass and fire-form it is more then what ballistic advantage it gives is worth ---- to me anyway. You can buy Nosler 280 AI pre-formed, but not as inexpensively as you can get standard 270s and as I said, I can't see ANY advantage of how the 280 AI works in the field over the standard 270. (or a standard 30-06 either) And yes, I have seen them side by side on several occasions.

If I wanted to work on feed lips a bit and take 30 minutes to open a bolt face and extractor I would make a 7MM Rem Mag Mag long before I would make a 280 AI. The AI will hold one more round and in some actions 2 more, but I see no true advantage in that for a hunting rifle. That's just me however.

Anyone that thinks "AI" is thinking about extra speed, and the belted mag gives you that (and a bit more) with no pain in the neck hoop-jumping.

I have owned a lot of different belted magnum rifle in my life and I still own a 300 H&H and a 375H&H, both of which hold 3 in the mag, and both of which have never been shot empty in the game fields. Thinking back, I have never shot a belted mag rifle empty in over 50 years of hunting.

I do make as large a mag capacity as possible if I can, (example: most of the 9.3X62s I make) but that is just if I can for the reason "why not"....but I hunt with flintlocks and many times a Ruger #1, I don't actually have a need to lots of rounds in a hunting rifle. Again.........that's just me.

Lots of folks like to be the "real expert" by having something that is "unique", but in the real world, for deer, you probably could not make a better deer rifle then a standard 25-06. the 270 and the 280 hit harder and toss more bullet, but they don't kill a deer any better then a 25-06. Elk and bear.............those may be a reason I can see opting for a heavier bullet, but not on deer to be honest. Unique doesn't mean better. Not at all really.

I have killed more deer than I can count with 270s in the last 1/2 century and I also own a 25-06 with which I have killed about 25 deer and antelope combined in the last 15 years. Hit for hit, comparing bullets of good construction, on deer size game ....I can't actually see any difference at all.

The 25-06 kicks a bit less too.
I normally hunt with a 7 Rum or 7 WSM. I am kind of wanting to move down a bit, but not huge bit, in velocity from the WSM. I agree the 284 would best be built on short action, but the GAP usually has to be long action if mag fed.

Last edited by reynolds357; January 9, 2020 at 06:40 PM.
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Old January 9, 2020, 06:38 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankenMauser View Post
8x57mm


As per the suggestions...
I recently assembled a 6.5-284 Norma on a long action. So, I am obviously biased. That would be my choice - especially with a long action on the table, since that's what the Norma version was intended for.

The .284 Win GAP caught my eye, though. I had seen that mentioned before, but never looked it up until now. It doesn't seem like a good idea, to me. It's designed to run one bullet, at one COAL. If your barrel doesn't like the 175 SMKs, you may be screwed.
It could be another Valkyrie-like chamber debacle.
I love the 6 5x284 Norma, just dont need a third one at the moment. My understanding is the Gap will shoot any of the heavy long boattails. My 1k bench rifle is a 284 Gap, but I have never shot anything other than a 180 Berger in it.
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Old January 9, 2020, 10:30 PM   #7
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Sounds like you need a .280, then.
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Old January 10, 2020, 03:37 AM   #8
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Having a custom Mauser in 284 Win, a Ruger 77 MKII in 280 Rem, and a Forbes 24B in 280 Rem, my next 7mm will depend upon the action that i get.

If long action with standard bolt face, it would definitely the 280AI.
Long action magnum bolt will probably be the 7mm LRM.

I've done the 7mm-08AI, cool conversation starter, but not really worth the effort.
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Old January 10, 2020, 03:51 AM   #9
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Reading between the lines, I get the hint that you already have most of the bases covered, maybe all of them. So it maybe doesn't matter which caliber you choose since you could throw it all in the recycle bin without changing your world.... Out of the ones you mentioned, I would go with the regular 280; but not if I could have a 270 Winchester or 30-'06. But you probably already have those..... I think Wyosmith gave excellent advice. Still, the 6.5's are kinda interesting.
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Old January 10, 2020, 07:37 AM   #10
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I have my vote cast for the once mentioned 6.5-06. The .264 based cartridges have impressed me from top to bottom and unless someone can show me otherwise I cannot see based on my readings and light conversations why the 06 version of it would not be amazing
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Old January 10, 2020, 09:30 AM   #11
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I have 284 build long action so I can seat out to 3.250" max and mostly use 160gr/168gr. I also shoot 280AI using Nosler brass.

I think 280AI is pretty nice case to use for hunting and been SAAMI spec since 2008.
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Old January 10, 2020, 10:30 AM   #12
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I also vote for the .280 Rem. Wyosmith soundly made his point about the AI not justifying itself between the .280 Rem and the Rem Mag. And if the goal is to step back from magnums, the .280 is plenty out to 450 yards.

To my way of thinking, for a rifle that is suitable for almost anything within reasonable ranges (distances < 500 yards), the .280 Rem is about as comfortable to shoot as anything out there. YMMV. I happen to prefer the 7mm/.284 bullets over all else for anything other than varmints.
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Old January 10, 2020, 10:48 AM   #13
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Of the choices you listed, I would probably choose the .280 AI.

But I think I would also consider the "plain vanilla" .280.
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Old January 10, 2020, 12:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old roper View Post
I have 284 build long action so I can seat out to 3.250" max and mostly use 160gr/168gr. I also shoot 280AI using Nosler brass.

I think 280AI is pretty nice case to use for hunting and been SAAMI spec since 2008.
Is the 284 the regular or the Gap chamber?
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Old January 10, 2020, 12:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Pathfinder45 View Post
Reading between the lines, I get the hint that you already have most of the bases covered, maybe all of them. So it maybe doesn't matter which caliber you choose since you could throw it all in the recycle bin without changing your world.... Out of the ones you mentioned, I would go with the regular 280; but not if I could have a 270 Winchester or 30-'06. But you probably already have those..... I think Wyosmith gave excellent advice. Still, the 6.5's are kinda interesting.
I have a few rifles, but I never want to waste money. I enjoy the machine work of building rifles, but have never done it for profit. I just build stuff for myself and my boys.
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Old January 10, 2020, 01:44 PM   #16
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reynolds357, I use 284 for hunting so didn't use gap reamer.
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Old January 10, 2020, 01:58 PM   #17
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I agree with Wyosmith regarding using the 284 case for a 30-06 length action.

It begs the uestion "Why?" IMO.

My trusty Nosler loading manual says a standard 280 will get 3152 fps with a 140 gr bullet using RE-19, 91% load density ,or 3070 fps with IMR 4831.
No listing for H-4831sc. BC .485
160 gr paritions go 2875 to 2950 with roughly the same BC.

The 280 AI goes about 3150 with 140 gr bullets,and 2960 with 160 gr bullets.

So the AI gains 100 fps. I agree again with Wyosmith .I don't know that 100 fps is worth going AI. .I recognize fireforming AI brass is fun shooting,but fireforming 200 rds of brass s 200 rds of barrel life..

Where I slightly differ fom Wyosmith is the 7mm Rem suggestion.

The 7mm Rem will deliver (per the load manual) 3340 fps wit the 140 gr bullet and 3050 with the 160 gr bullets. (I tend to disregard H-870)

Applying similar logic,the 7mmRem Mag delivers a 190 fps gain with 140 gr bullets,and 100 fps with the 160 gr bullets.

In other words,the step up to a Rem Mage does not deliver much more than the step up to AI....and in tha grand scheme of things,our deer at 450 yds won't know the difference.

FWIW,IMO part of what erodes throats is the volume of powder burned.

At roughly the same velocities,you gain some barrel life burning less powder.

Certainly,the 270 and 6.5 -06 deliver similar range and performance.

This gets down to preference and confidence in the cartridge. None of them are "wrong"

The 270 goes 3125 fps with a 130 gr bullet using H4831 sc

And the 6.5-06 goes 3144 fps with 120 gr bullets...both nearly exactly the same as a standard 280 with 140 gr bullets. No clear advantage/disadvantage to any of them.

I realize the argument can be made "Well,I load my favorite to higher velocities/pressures than the load book"

OK,and its true SAAMI spec pressure for the 7mm Rem Mag is a little less than for a 243,for example. Maybe because back in the day the local smith would run a chamber reamer into a milsurp 7x57 barrel.

But I don't want to go into that argument. Folks will hot rod the AI's trying to meet expectations, too.

Last edited by HiBC; January 10, 2020 at 02:16 PM.
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Old January 10, 2020, 02:19 PM   #18
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"...125 fps velocity increase..." Doesn't make enough difference to matter.
You best be making the brass too if you opt for a .284 Win. Graf's shows exactly 2 ammo brands, of the same bullet weight, that are not mainstream manufacturers. Not much brass available either. No AI. So you're making that period.
Lots of .280 Rem ammo and brass. And there's some AI ammo and brass.
The .284 Win is a 'short action' cartridge. It'll work in a long, but you'll have to fiddle with it to do so. Lotta that is more trouble than it's worth.
"...No listing for H-4831sc..." Same powder anyway. Difference is the length of the granules and nothing else. http://ns.hodgdon.com/extreme.html
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Old January 10, 2020, 03:06 PM   #19
reynolds357
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Originally Posted by T. O'Heir View Post
"...125 fps velocity increase..." Doesn't make enough difference to matter.
You best be making the brass too if you opt for a .284 Win. Graf's shows exactly 2 ammo brands, of the same bullet weight, that are not mainstream manufacturers. Not much brass available either. No AI. So you're making that period.
Lots of .280 Rem ammo and brass. And there's some AI ammo and brass.
The .284 Win is a 'short action' cartridge. It'll work in a long, but you'll have to fiddle with it to do so. Lotta that is more trouble than it's worth.
"...No listing for H-4831sc..." Same powder anyway. Difference is the length of the granules and nothing else. http://ns.hodgdon.com/extreme.html
284 brass will be around because its still in demand for 1k shooting. Norma always has it and Win. runs it once a year. Hornaday has it available more often than not.
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Old January 10, 2020, 04:08 PM   #20
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OHeir : If you ar going to wait in the wings drooling,waiting for some small nit pick thing to jump on and correct,AT LEAST GET IT RIGHT !

You are WRONG AGAIN!! Read my post you quoted again. I listed a load for IMR 4831. I said there was no listing for H-4831 sc.

There IS a difference between IMR 4831 and H-4831sc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T. O'Heir
"...125 fps velocity increase..." Doesn't make enough difference to matter.
You best be making the brass too if you opt for a .284 Win. Graf's shows exactly 2 ammo brands, of the same bullet weight, that are not mainstream manufacturers. Not much brass available either. No AI. So you're making that period.
Lots of .280 Rem ammo and brass. And there's some AI ammo and brass.
The .284 Win is a 'short action' cartridge. It'll work in a long, but you'll have to fiddle with it to do so. Lotta that is more trouble than it's worth.
"...No listing for H-4831sc..." Same powder anyway. Difference is the length of the granules and nothing else. http://ns.hodgdon.com/extreme.html
Reynolds 357: I agree 284 brass will probably be around...still 280 can be bought or made from 30-06 . Its a no sweat on availability.

I advocate for folks doing things for the sole reason of "my preference" No need to justify it.

But I don't understand why anyone would choose the 284 brass for a hnting rifle in a 30-06 length action.

But then,I never understood why someone would buy a Yugo. Its OK. I'll let it go.

Last edited by HiBC; January 10, 2020 at 04:20 PM.
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Old January 10, 2020, 04:09 PM   #21
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Every modern bottle neck cartridge from 26 caliber on up will take every game animal in the lower 48 with ease. With the right bullet precisely placed will take every game animal in North America and all but about 4 on the planet. The 24's and 25's are more than adequate for most game, but don't shoot bullets heavy enough for me to consider more than borderline for game bigger than deer. I know some do it. But I wouldn't be comfortable.

It should come as no surprise that you'll not see any real difference between 270, 280, 30-06, or any of at least a dozen others. It comes down to personal preference, how much recoil you can tolerate, ammo availability, cost, and what ranges you have the skills to shoot.

A long time ago I sorta became attached to the 30 caliber offerings, but fully understand today that a 27 or 28 caliber rifle will do the same thing. And on paper at least should be a little better. But I've never felt the difference was enough to change.

The 280 might just be the perfect all around cartridge, by the slimmest margins. And it is just unique enough to separate you from the masses, without a lot of negatives. I'm neutral on going AI. I'm not sure I'd need the extra speed, but at the same time there appear to be few downsides.
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Old January 10, 2020, 04:31 PM   #22
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Go with the 280AI if you want something a bit different and don't mind the additional brass work. Otherwise the standard 280 is a great choice.
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Old January 10, 2020, 04:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC View Post
OHeir : If you ar going to wait in the wings drooling,waiting for some small nit pick thing to jump on and correct,AT LEAST GET IT RIGHT !

You are WRONG AGAIN!! Read my post you quoted again. I listed a load for IMR 4831. I said there was no listing for H-4831 sc.

There IS a difference between IMR 4831 and H-4831sc.



Reynolds 357: I agree 284 brass will probably be around...still 280 can be bought or made from 30-06 . Its a no sweat on availability.

I advocate for folks doing things for the sole reason of "my preference" No need to justify it.

But I don't understand why anyone would choose the 284 brass for a hnting rifle in a 30-06 length action.

But then,I never understood why someone would buy a Yugo. Its OK. I'll let it go.
Why the 284 is in the running.
1. It is slightly more accurate than 280.
2. It is not a short action cartridge. It is a short action with some bullets cartridge. The long skinny bullets require a long action.
3. In a long action, it has a working case capacity higher than the 280.
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Old January 10, 2020, 04:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
reynolds357 asked: Which cartridge to build???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a long action with 06 bolt face and magazine laying around that I need to build something on. It will do a little paper punching but mainly whitetail hunting at 450 yards or less. 24 to 26" heavy sporter barrel.
Wow !!!
What a great description of a 6.5-06

...
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Old January 10, 2020, 05:07 PM   #25
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I just hate making brass. If I could get 6.5-06 AI brass, it would be a no brainer. I have to make brass for my .30/416 Rigby AI, but other than that, I dont want to make brass.
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