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Old January 7, 2020, 03:51 PM   #51
JJ45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forte S+W View Post
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I've experienced bullet setback in my Walther PPK/S, which is a fixed barrel, straight blowback operated pistol. What is causing the bullet to setback? Presumably the steep incline of the feed ramp. It isn't a straight shot from the magazine to the chamber in all fixed barrel firearms.
Here we go I am quite sure that the pistol(s) that I have chambered and re-chambered the most are my PM Makarovs! A fixed barrel, straight blow back pistol...and this always with East Bloc, steel cased ammo. Almost all FMJ but JHP on occasion.

Never a problem. But I really don't know if there was bullet set back in a cartridge that I fired and didn't notice any effect.

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Old January 8, 2020, 01:09 AM   #52
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Quote:
Check out the video on JohnKSa's previous post. The gun used to illustrate set back is a Glock.
The slow motion video I've been talking about that I posted a link to in post #26 of this thread is of a 1911.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp-HFVG_c4Q
Quote:
What is the gun that leaves brass stripes up the fed ramp?
Most of the semi-auto pistols I own leave copper marks (jacketing material) on the feedramp during the feeding process.

I'm not going to do pictures of all of them, but here's a picture of the first one I pulled out of the box to check. This is a picture of a clean Glock 19 feedramp after having a commercial JHP round chambered 5x from the magazine. For whatever it's worth, that round now measures 1.09" COAL compared to 1.10" to the other round I pulled out of the box next to it that hadn't ever been chambered.

Not the greatest picture ever, but the jacket marks left by the impact of the bullet on the feedramp are clearly visible.
Quote:
Is there any way you can post a side view picture of your Walther with slide removed and magazine in the gun?
The top rounds sits low enough in the gun it's not easy to make anything out. However, while I was checking on it, I did note a bullet material streak on the feedramp of the PPK that more or less matches the mark on the Glock feedramp pictured above.

Sorry for the image quality, but here's the PPK feedramp showing jacket material marks.


Here's a picture that shows a couple of barrels with jacketing material marks on the feedramps. Note that this is not my image, it's from the article in the link below.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/ge...-glock-barrel/

Quote:
Here we go I am quite sure that the pistol(s) that I have chambered and re-chambered the most are my PM Makarovs! A fixed barrel, straight blow back pistol...and this always with East Bloc, steel cased ammo. Almost all FMJ but JHP on occasion.
Interestingly enough, the worst case of setback I've seen was with a Makarov shooting aluminum cased ammo. I think that the biggest part of the problem was the aluminum cases not holding the bullet as firmly as brass would, but clearly some aspect of the pistol played a part in creating the issue.
Quote:
...my original question that ended the post was "should I be worried" is somewhat in limbo.
Now that you understand the topic and the potential issues, I don't think there's any need to worry. That's the best part of this topic. Once you understand the situation, it's really very simple to make absolutely sure that it can't become a problem.

If you're repeatedly chambering the same round, I would definitely check it once in awhile to see if it's setting back. Also, at some point, maybe it's time to shoot that round rather than chambering it repeatedly. Never hurts to get some practice once in awhile and to get some new ammo in your carry gun at the same time.
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File Type: jpg PPKFeedramp_small.jpg (44.8 KB, 112 views)
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Old January 8, 2020, 01:53 AM   #53
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Here is a picture of a factory Silvertip .45 ACP that was chambered in a Star PD 3 times.
The round on the left is new. The shortened round will feed just fine from a magazine into the gun. I would expect significantly higher pressure, and I would not fire this round.
Bullet setback is very real.
This round sits in my desk drawer as a reminder of it.
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Old January 8, 2020, 06:13 AM   #54
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Still don't see it

My Glock's show no indication of anything that would cause set back. I stand by what I say. This set back is a creature of the Net. I do not see anything, to cause set back. I did measure my Hornady rounds. The COL of these often rechambered rounds were consistent showing no indications of set back.

Added: I am not cooking data to make a point

LW barrels. Years ago a LW barrel would jam the slide back on my G29. In the end LW blamed the slide as being out of specs. Money was refunded. The gun was returned to Glock. There was nothing wrong with the slide. Therefore, I'd look to the Glock barrels as examples. I don't trust LW any longer.
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Old January 8, 2020, 09:16 AM   #55
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Another angle-bunch added

When we look at the pictures head or angled shots of the feed ramp are shown. Pictures from this angle are distorted enough to made a head on collision of bullet on ramp. Actually looking at the ramp for other angles show how round is elevated in the magazine to avoid this head on crash. The ramp is not as steep as appears in the photos. Check it out in you own gun.

Added: Any indication in my guns of any contact with the bullet it is the very top of the ramp. I wonder if this is the tail of the case going through rather than the bullet jamming into the ramp.

Added: Do check out post #26

Added: How come this set back is only on the first round. Looks like all the rounds should be shortened. What's special about that first round? The clanking noise in one video in post #26 is the action going into battery. It makes this noise with or without round.
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Old January 8, 2020, 01:39 PM   #56
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I'm glad someone asked this question because I always wondered about it. I always thought in terms of the case rim and never considered setback.

As matter of habit, if I drop a mag and unload a chambered round after 2 or 3 times, I usually try to remember to put it back in the mag towards the bottom (and reload the whole mag).

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Old January 8, 2020, 02:09 PM   #57
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Quote:
This set back is a creature of the Net.
No...its not. I have seen it repeatedly with duty guns that were loaded and unloaded often.

Heck, there is plenty of photos in this thread to show its real. I keep an eye on my chambered round. When it starts to show setback. I swap it for a fresh round and throw the old one in my range ammo stash.
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Old January 8, 2020, 02:24 PM   #58
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Everyone see post 53. Setback can and does happen.
Visually check your ammunition against rounds that have not been chambered. If one is noticeably shorter than the others, dispose of that round. Do not shoot it.

For those who just can't seem to grasp this concept, because they can't visualize it on THEIR gun- It only happens with the top round because that is the one that is usually chambered/unchambered multiple times.
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Old January 8, 2020, 03:54 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Thank you Forte S+W, that is the kind of personal experience I was looking for. Is your PPK/S a .32 or .380?
It's a Smith & Wesson PPK/S-1 chambered in .380 ACP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.G. Terry
44 AMP: Is there any way you can post a side view picture of your Walther with slide removed and magazine in the gun?
I presume it is me you meant to ask? I can't do that right now, and it wouldn't really help anyway from that angle since the feed ramp would be obscured by the internal slide stop, but here are some pictures I found via a Google Image Search that may satisfy you.



By the way, it's important to note that my PPK/S is a Smith & Wesson manufactured model with a modified feedramp. Older models by other manufacturers have a two-piece feed ramp which is a bit less steep, but doesn't always feed JHPs well.

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Old January 8, 2020, 05:34 PM   #60
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Nobody has explained about the other rounds. Do they set back or is it limited only to the first round chambered? Should not this set back be happening to all the rounds cycled through the gun?

Where is there genuine examples of set back rounds making a KB? This would come from some source other than the net. "Everybody knows" does not count. I am not talking about a rehash of increasing pressure as bullets being seated deeper in the case. Most of this KB stuff is to cover up a double charge anyway.

Some of the photos here are dubious. Not all but some look cooked. Information cited from the net is the same old stuff repeated over yet again. The danger is closer and more serious each time story is passed along the net.

There is still the issue of there being no firearm or cartridge manufacturer with a warning about set back. No warning other than those on the net have been cited. How about showing the non-believers some of these real warnings. I can't remember a recall of cartridges due to set back. This would be some solid information not from the net about set back. This would exclude the National Inquirer.
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Old January 8, 2020, 05:46 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.G. Terry View Post
Nobody has explained about the other rounds. Do they set back or is it limited only to the first round chambered? Should not this set back be happening to all the rounds cycled through the gun?

Where is there genuine examples of set back rounds making a KB? This would come from some source other than the net. "Everybody knows" does not count. I am not talking about a rehash of increasing pressure as bullets being seated deeper in the case. Most of this KB stuff is to cover up a double charge anyway.

Some of the photos here are dubious. Not all but some look cooked. Information cited from the net is the same old stuff repeated over yet again. The danger is closer and more serious each time story is passed along the net.

There is still the issue of there being no firearm or cartridge manufacturer with a warning about set back. No warning other than those on the net have been cited. How about showing the non-believers some of these real warnings. I can't remember a recall of cartridges due to set back. This would be some solid information not from the net about set back. This would exclude the National Inquirer.
I tend to agree. Though a recall would be because of a manufacturing defect.

I don't reload 45 ACP any more but I still have the dies including a Lee Factory Crimp die. I might just run the cartridge in question through the die to tighten it up
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Old January 8, 2020, 11:22 PM   #62
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Quote:
Do they set back or is it limited only to the first round chambered? Should not this set back be happening to all the rounds cycled through the gun?
No, it isn’t limited to the first round chambered; it happens to any round that is chambered enough times for the bullet to be set back. It’s important to understand that it’s rare for a bullet to setback from only one chambering/loading unless there’s a problem with the gun or the round. However, it’s not that uncommon for a round to setback if it is chambered repeatedly.

The reason it most often happens to the first round (or first two rounds) in the mag is that if a person is constantly unloading and reloading, it’s only the top round (or top two rounds) that get chambered repeatedly.

The chambered round is ejected during unloading. If the person doesn’t top off the mag when loading then the ejected round is put back into the magazine for the next time the gun is loaded and it gets chambered repeatedly until it is shot or replaced. In that case, only the first round is getting chambered frequently and therefore it’s the only one that is likely to show setback.

If the person tops off the mag (full mag and one in the chamber), then the easiest reloading method is to chamber the next round in the mag, remove the mag, put the ejected round back in the mag and the put the mag back in the gun. So the top two rounds will get “rotated” each unload/reload cycle until shot or replaced. Each of the top two rounds would be chambered once for every two unload/reload cycles.
Quote:
Some of the photos here are dubious. Not all but some look cooked.
Sadly, given the way this discussion has progressed, I anticipated such accusations would be made. That’s why in addition to taking and posting two pictures of my own, I also went to the additional trouble of finding a third party article on the web that had a picture showing the same thing as my photos did. There are other similar photos available on the web if one does an image search.
Quote:
There is still the issue of there being no firearm or cartridge manufacturer with a warning about set back.
Glock mentions the issue in their armorer’s manuals and includes the following warning—reproduced below from a 2015 edition with the emphasis present in the manual:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2015 Glock Armorer's Manual
“Set Back”

Cartridges sometimes may be damaged or altered in some way and this can cause an unsafe condition. An example is a cartridge that has had the projectile (bullet) pushed back deeper than normal into the casing. This can change the combustion space characteristics and powder burn rate boosting pressures to unacceptable levels. Repeated loading and unloading of the same cartridge can cause a condition known as “set back.” The projectile has been pushed deeper into the case and the overall length of the round is noticeably shorter than others of the same bullet weight, make or style.

DO NOT CHAMBER AND EJECT THE SAME ROUND REPEATEDLY!
For what it’s worth, the topic is also commonly addressed in reloading manuals.
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Old January 9, 2020, 07:23 AM   #63
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Warnings and Feed Ramps

Common Sense: First up, if you do think repeated chambering is unsafe do not do it! :

Cooked: This is easy. Explain how a bullet contacts the very base of the feed ramp on a Glock. Starts at the bottom of the ramp and zigzags up That's simply not the way that works. That is, unless the somebody, Bubba, has altered the gun. Unless my three guns are unique. I don't think so. The Guilty Fleeth...."

So far I have not been able to find anything about set back in the owner's manual in the "5/04 form." If this is the case, shame face on Glock for keeping it a secret. That is, unless it has been discovered between 2004 and 2015.

The full manual is for Glock armorers: The armorer that did the Glock workshop I attended did not share this set back information with us. He is a retired LEO. If set back is such a big deal how come it's not in the literature in the box? Was the Armorers manual for general use and in wide circulation? Nope.

Somebody help me with set back in Glock commonly circulated official owners literature. I'm not saying such is not there. If have not found in the owner manual. So far, no warning on set back has been found in the Ptooma Productions "The Complete Glock Reference Guide" If there is one in the book please point it out to me. Thanks for your help.

Added: I could not find the set back warning in the Glock Manual. A page number would help. Deformed ammo yes but no to set back.
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Old January 9, 2020, 07:49 AM   #64
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Why do some people feel the need to load/unload their gun all the time? My pistols generally stay loaded in the safe, out of the safe. I never need to check.

You can damage more than causing setback. You can actually destroy the primer from repeated chamberings. There was an article in Police One several years ago discussing this as it had happened with some 45 ACP ammo.
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Old January 9, 2020, 09:02 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.G. Terry
Added: How come this set back is only on the first round. Looks like all the rounds should be shortened. What's special about that first round? The clanking noise in one video in post #26 is the action going into battery. It makes this noise with or without round.
It's not only the first round. I'm currently working on a 9mm 1911 that has feed issues. It usually feeds the first and second round pretty consistently. It usually sees the third, fourth, and fifth rounds come to a hard stop with the bullet nose jammed into the barrel throat. Then the remaining rounds typically feed okay. Having the middle rounds in a magazine create the problem is unusual, but there you have it.

And the hard stop definitely does result in bullet setback. My 9mm dummies were made to a C.O.L. of 1.160". I measured some of them last night and they're at 1.140".
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Old January 9, 2020, 11:46 AM   #66
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Set back in 9mm 1911's and others

I dislike voodoo reloading-keep it simple. I did not have a problem with my old RIA 1911 9mm. It ran like a top but for some poor magazines.

To most anybody I'd suggest looking at bullet changes and use of a taper crimp die. Also, look at COL. I can have one or more of these things out of line and the wheels come off. Bad magazine in that RIA would double feed. That's the mother of all malfunctions. In my experience the standard 1911 is the easiest of all handguns to live with (bad grammar).

Trash bad magazines: I cannot comment further since I have not had a round jam up in the throat. Should that have happened I would look to my handloading. The majority of my recent reloads have been with the hand cast Lyman 356402 bullets. No jacketed bullets in this 9mm save some 9mm factory. Shape of the bullets and short ramp on my 1911 45ACP makes for reliability. Again magazine and/or cartridges first. No problems here with two 9mm SIG's at different times.
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Old January 9, 2020, 12:21 PM   #67
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Wow, we've really gone all out.

It seems to me that in this discussion some have provided evidence and some have made claims. The people that made claims then claim the evidence presented is false or "cooked". It seems odd to me that of all topics to doctor evidence for this would be where people put their effort. But then again, we have been told we can't trust what we read on the internet (at least if it doesn't agree with a certain point of view). Truly dizzying.

I've seen cartridges with bullets that have setback. I'm also aware of pressure changes as they relate to volume. Just because I haven't had something happen to me personally doesn't mean it can't happen. To the concern at hand, it seems to be something that can be checked for and if observed the offending round can be discarded. Though I imagine the discussion will continue.

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Old January 9, 2020, 12:41 PM   #68
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Missed the mark?

TR: You be right it is confusing. I bet you have seen some stuff on the net that's just downright wrong or made up. We know of examples on the net where some pretty wild stuff has taken on a life of it's own and repeated as gospel. I have cited some specific information and requested that errors be pointed out. If I challenge it's up to me to prove it's wrong.

My favorite from the net involved a Kel Tec 380. This guy was giving information and how to shoot and all that stuff. He continued that the gun was easy to handle. He reached over and pulled back the slide with two fingers. You try it with a Kel Tec 380.

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Old January 9, 2020, 01:04 PM   #69
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"...the bullet may "set back"..." That means it wasn't loaded correctly in the first place. If it's a pistol round, it'd be the crimp not being correct.
"...assume the factories use a taper crimp..." It's a taper crimp only for a case that headspaces on the case mouth.
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Old January 9, 2020, 01:32 PM   #70
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My example pictured above is factory loaded Winchester ammunition.
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Old January 9, 2020, 03:52 PM   #71
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The fact that setback hasn't generated a gazillion kabooms does not in any way prove ... or even suggest ... that setback does not happen or is not a real phenomenon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.G. Terry
I dislike voodoo reloading-keep it simple. I did not have a problem with my old RIA 1911 9mm. It ran like a top but for some poor magazines.

To most anybody I'd suggest looking at bullet changes and use of a taper crimp die. Also, look at COL. I can have one or more of these things out of line and the wheels come off. Bad magazine in that RIA would double feed. That's the mother of all malfunctions. In my experience the standard 1911 is the easiest of all handguns to live with (bad grammar).

Trash bad magazines: I cannot comment further since I have not had a round jam up in the throat. Should that have happened I would look to my handloading. The majority of my recent reloads have been with the hand cast Lyman 356402 bullets. No jacketed bullets in this 9mm save some 9mm factory. Shape of the bullets and short ramp on my 1911 45ACP makes for reliability. Again magazine and/or cartridges first. No problems here with two 9mm SIG's at different times.
What does any of the above have to do with bullet setback?
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Old January 9, 2020, 04:03 PM   #72
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Relevance: It has all to do with handgun malfunctions and bad handloaded and/or factory cartridges. If you do not understand or feel the post is irrelevant please delete it without delay. Thanks for your comment.
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Old January 9, 2020, 05:03 PM   #73
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We are not discussing handgun malfunctions, and we are not discussing bad handloaded and/or factory cartridges. This thread is about bullet setback. None of what you wrote in post #66 has anything to do with the topic.
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Old January 9, 2020, 05:54 PM   #74
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#65

The malfunctions in #65 sure looked it had to do with cartridge problems and handgun problems. My mistake. Hope I did not offend.
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Old January 9, 2020, 10:48 PM   #75
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The malfunctions in #65 sure looked it had to do with cartridge problems and handgun problems. My mistake. Hope I did not offend.
The cause of the malfunctions mentioned in my post #65 have not been determined. That's not the point. The point was -- and is -- that rounds fed through that pistol have the bullets set back.

My carry pistols are all 1911s chambered in .45 ACP. Rounds that have been chambered in any of those guns more than two or three times also demonstrate measurable bullet setback. It does not require a direct, head-on collision between the bullet and some part of the gun for setback to occur.

And, for the record, in my carry pistols I only carry premium, factory hollow-point ammunition, so there's no need to accuse me again of "voodoo" reloads (whatever that was about).
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