The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old December 13, 2019, 04:33 AM   #1
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 1,094
In the trenches

The Va 2A sanctuary movement is one of the most interesting and successful to pop up in a while. For the most part it has been a totally grassroots movement,and the turnout at meetings has overflowed the buildings in which they were held. In about 5 weeks the number of localities includes 75 counties, 10 cities, and9 towns. More will be coming on board next week. Va only has 95 counties total.
ronl is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 08:09 AM   #2
USNRet93
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl View Post
The Va 2A sanctuary movement is one of the most interesting and successful to pop up in a while. For the most part it has been a totally grassroots movement,and the turnout at meetings has overflowed the buildings in which they were held. In about 5 weeks the number of localities includes 75 counties, 10 cities, and9 towns. More will be coming on board next week. Va only has 95 counties total.
Not doubting what you said by google-foo says 33 counties as of Tuesday.
Quote:
As of Tuesday, 33 of Virginia’s counties and 2 towns have voted to declare themselves Second Amendment sanctuaries after a series of gun control bills were proposed in the Virginia General Assembly.
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer

"Tools not Trophies”
USNRet93 is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 08:23 AM   #3
MC 1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 202
You should doubt Google. Right now there are 76 counties,9 cities and 10 towns that have declared as 2a sanctuarys. VCDL is a good reference.
MC 1911 is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 10:29 AM   #4
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 1,094
Thanks for the update. Info from the media is spotty, at best, and is often rather inaccurate. In Louisa one tv report said 500 people. There were 647 people inside that had signed up in addition to a large crowd outside who were unable to get inside, certainly more than 700. This movement should be front page news as the time frame in which this has happened is only a little over a month now, and over 75% of the counties are represented, with more certainly to come. This situation represents clearly the divide between the rural areas and those of the Richmond/ nova who are in control. My concern is the mood of the people, as it is rather surly. One delegate from the Richmond area has already broached the subject of calling out the NG to enforce the new laws. If such a thing happens, people will die. How far the government will ultimately take this remains to be seen, but things around here could get dicey very quickly.
ronl is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 10:47 AM   #5
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 1,094
I also should add that Northam has said he will modify the bill to grandfather existing firearms, providing they be registered. He is trying to appear as though he is compromising, when that was the intention all along, something I said would happen from the start. The people are having none of that. In addition, in my county the militia is being called out, and I have heard of several counties locally doing this. The people are tired of the junk. 244 years since the shot heard round the world, and here we are again.'
ronl is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 11:42 AM   #6
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 13,442
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronl
In addition, in my county the militia is being called out, and I have heard of several counties locally doing this.
Does Virginia have a militia or militias, officially? What is their legal status, and who is calling them out?

In my state, there is (technically) a militia, but it functions under the umbrella of the National Guard. It's like the junior varsity NG -- if the NG is federalized and deployed to far away locations, the militia will be here to step up and perform [some of] the essential NG functions in case of emergency or natural disaster. The militia in my state cannot be called out (up?) by anyone other than the governor, or the President if they are federalized..
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; December 13, 2019 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Corrected call-up authority
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 06:17 PM   #7
lokidansk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 9, 2013
Location: Chesterfield VA, USA
Posts: 102
I went to Chesterfields, I heard 3000 there. There were many people there.
__________________
'Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body......... but rather to skid in sideways with a cigar in one hand & a Scotch in the other......... body thoroughly used up & totally worn out.........screaming 'woo hoo -- what a ride !!'
lokidansk is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 07:14 PM   #8
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 1,094
Here in va the militia is defined as the body of the people. There are three types of militia enumerated in va, the NG, the state militia, and the disorganized militia. It is mandated by law that the militia is to be well trained. Guess the disorganized militia is going to be getting a little more organized, that is if I am reading my fellow Virginians correctly. Any call for bringing in the NG to enforce such laws is absurd and irresponsible. It will only make a touchy situation even worse. Our constitution grants all power to the people and defines those in state government as servants of the people. Guess Northam is choosing to represent only he northern, Richmond and Charlottesville people. He is simply ignoring the other 90% of the state. The petition to recall Northam is gathering steam.
ronl is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 07:23 PM   #9
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 1,094
It is interesting that those proposing the new laws will admit the new laws would have had zero effect on the two mass shootings that occurred within the Commonwealth. I am working with delegates I know to propose something that may well help. My proposal is to place more mental health professionals within schools, teach the teachers what to look for, and get these troubled children the help they need. This gets to the heart of the problem, and it doesn't take away the rights of law abiding citizens.
ronl is offline  
Old December 13, 2019, 11:36 PM   #10
osbornk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 11, 2012
Location: Mountains of Appalachia
Posts: 1,543
It is mostly a grassroots thing and here are a couple that are working to protect us:

https://keepva2a.com/

https://vcdl.org/
osbornk is offline  
Old December 14, 2019, 12:05 AM   #11
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,179
Quote:
My concern is the mood of the people, as it is rather surly. One delegate from the Richmond area has already broached the subject of calling out the NG to enforce the new laws. If such a thing happens, people will die. How far the government will ultimately take this remains to be seen, but things around here could get dicey very quickly.
So VA officials may be disappointed to realize that the overwhelming vast majority of National Guard soldiers who are combat arms would not be very sympathetic to a gun confiscation cause. Yes I get following orders, but it would be quite easy to argue that unconstitutionally confiscating firearms is not a lawful order. Invoking the NG is not the threat that it’s being made out to be. I could see some units forming a defensive line protecting private citizens. No that is the last thing they want to do and they know it.

What VA is really doing now is ensuring that the state turns from blueish purple back to a bright red. Don’t ever forget that the political pendulum swings rather reliably and quickly when one side tries to push too hard/far.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946
5whiskey is offline  
Old December 14, 2019, 07:23 AM   #12
std7mag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2013
Location: Central Taxylvania..
Posts: 2,871
Like every other time, and issue, this will have been forgotten by next election time.

I've been working hard at changing our county commissioners and school administration, to no avail.
__________________
This country was founded on two beliefs.
And I'm pretty sure pork rinds was one of them!
std7mag is offline  
Old December 14, 2019, 08:18 AM   #13
USNRet93
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,467
Quote:
Our constitution grants all power to the people and defines those in state government as servants of the people. Guess Northam is choosing to represent only he northern, Richmond and Charlottesville people. He is simply ignoring the other 90% of the state.
Sorry, the only true 'poll' is the one at the ballot box. 'Majority rules' and altho I appreciate what you are saying, once again, too little, too late n Virginia, IMHO.
Quote:
Yes I get following orders, but it would be quite easy to argue that unconstitutionally confiscating firearms is not a lawful order. Invoking the NG is not the threat that it’s being made out to be. I could see some units forming a defensive line protecting private citizens. No that is the last thing they want to do and they know it.
Really doubt any governor is going to call out the NG just to 'enforce a law', particularly when nobody has been charged.

Units becoming mutineers? Really doubt that..IMHO, of course. Calls for civil war really does nothing more than rile up the other side's base.
Quote:
Like every other time, and issue, this will have been forgotten by next election time.
Agree..BUT the 'outrage' must be present in 2020, and actual GOP candidates need to run competitively.
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer

"Tools not Trophies”
USNRet93 is offline  
Old December 14, 2019, 08:42 AM   #14
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,179
Quote:
Really doubt any governor is going to call out the NG just to 'enforce a law', particularly when nobody has been charged.
I do as well, but the idea has already been floated by Democratic Lawmaker Donald Mceachin. And it is not in response to citizens not being charged, it would be in response to the 75 out of 95 counties in VA that have pledged to be 2nd Amendment Sanctuaries. Good representative said, and I quote....

Quote:
And ultimately, I'm not the governor, but the governor may have to nationalize the National Guard to enforce the law
So no one here is speculating the calls for involving the organized militia. Democratic lawmakers in Virginia have, in fact, made such calls. Now, conversely, I do not for a second believe that would actually happen.

Quote:
Units becoming mutineers? Really doubt that..IMHO, of course. Calls for civil war really does nothing more than rile up the other side's base.
No one is calling for civil war. As to an Infantry Battalion, composed of citizens of Virginia, being called upon to enforce an Assault Weapons Ban (one of the very laws on the table) upon other citizens of Virginia; I don't see that going over well. Especially when over 50% of those infantrymen, tankers, artillerymen, and MPs all privately own the weapons at question themselves. And that's also why this should never happen. The state Commander of the National Guard, appointed by the Governor, would probably be duty bound to notify the governor that calling up the National Guard for that would be a horrible idea. The governor, in turn, would agree if he had half a brain.

Story from a long-standing media outlet to support 75 counties and a lawmaker has indicated calling up the VANG is on the table:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...ce-gun-control


LASTLY, and most importantly

Quote:
'Majority rules'
Not absolutely, not in a Republic my friend.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946

Last edited by 5whiskey; December 14, 2019 at 08:51 AM.
5whiskey is offline  
Old December 14, 2019, 11:53 AM   #15
TomNJVA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2014
Location: Floyd, VA
Posts: 194
I think the National Guard threat was just a red herring intended to scare and slow the movement. It seems to be having an opposite effect, creating more anger and strengthening the resolve of the resisters. Some exciting months to come!
__________________
In NJ, the bad guys are armed and the households are alarmed. In VA, the households are armed and the bad guys are alarmed.
TomNJVA is offline  
Old December 14, 2019, 02:45 PM   #16
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 1,094
I too think the NG mention was to deter participation in the 2A movement, and really holds no water. The mention of it has made people even more determined to resist. There is even some talk of Northam working out the details needed to cut power, phone service, etc., if the NG is called out. I think that one is complete bunk, but the truth will come out. I cannot credit Northam with being overly intelligent, but I do not think he is that ignorant of the resolve of the people.

Last edited by ronl; December 14, 2019 at 10:16 PM.
ronl is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 07:54 AM   #17
USNRet93
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,467
Quote:
Not absolutely, not in a Republic my friend
Majority elects the law makers, the law makers make the laws. It becomes a law if the majority of the law makers vote for it and is signed into law by the governor, who was ejected by a majority. Or vetoed, then back to the legislature where it would either pass with a ‘super majority’ or fail....
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer

"Tools not Trophies”
USNRet93 is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 10:29 AM   #18
davidsog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2018
Posts: 1,123
Quote:
VA officials may be disappointed to realize that the overwhelming vast majority of National Guard soldiers who are combat arms would not be very sympathetic to a gun confiscation cause.
Soldiers, including National Guardsmen take an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.

Soldiers tend to read the Constitution our Founding Fathers wrote and understand the plain language unencumbered by the 3000 plus page document the modern constitution has bloated too in its legal interpretation.

They tend to view that legal interpretation document with a suspicious eye. In the 1990’s the Clinton Administration surveyed SOCOM as to the likelihood an order to confiscate firearms would be followed. At that time the overwhelming response was it would not be and such an order would be viewed as attempting to alter our Constitution unlawfully.

Soldiers have a duty not to obey unlawful orders.
davidsog is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 11:32 AM   #19
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,223
It seems the VA general assembly is applying a bit of pressure on their State Police as well.

They are introducing a bill that terminates the employment of any State Officers that might refuse to participate in firearms confiscation.

A link to the bill :https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/leg...RR2YTUrlUpngBU

Somehow I don't think this is going to have the net result they intend.

ETA: Either way, it seems they realize there is going to be dissension within the LE community and, I'm sure, the NG as well. At least the LE officers can now see where the line in the sand is.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -

Last edited by OuTcAsT; December 15, 2019 at 11:40 AM.
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 03:40 PM   #20
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,179
Quote:
Majority elects the law makers, the law makers make the laws. It becomes a law if the majority of the law makers vote for it and is signed into law by the governor, who was ejected by a majority. Or vetoed, then back to the legislature where it would either pass with a ‘super majority’ or fail....
I know how it works

And the simple majority of sheer number of people, typically represented by the House of Representatives whose members are based on state population, is counterbalanced by majority of states in the senate... absent any calculus based on population. It was designed this way by the US constitution for a reason.

But we’re talking about the state of VA. That they obtained a Democratic majority in a mid term election where the Democratic base is exceptionally worked up because a republican president they don’t like much is in office is not grounds for the far left to leap for joy. It is common knowledge that midterm elections quite often do not go well for the party currently in power. As I recall republicans won far more victories in the mid term of 2010, but it wasn’t as reported upon then because the media had a crush on President Obama.

VA hasn’t suddenly turned far left as evidenced by 75 out 95 counties now declaring themselves 2A sanctuaries. Maybe not as conservative as it once was, but certainly not far left enough to tolerate draconian gun laws. Let’s hope those counties remember this lesson and never stay at home on a midterm election again...

Lol like that would ever happen. But it may happen next time.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946

Last edited by 5whiskey; December 15, 2019 at 03:53 PM.
5whiskey is offline  
Old December 15, 2019, 11:45 PM   #21
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 20,867
Call out the National Guard to enforce gun control laws???

Not only does that fellow not understand the law, but he's also apparently missed attending "Tyranny 101".

Experience tyrants know that one does NOT attempt to suppress local disobedience with local troops!

What do you think will happen if you tell the Guardsmen that now they have to arrest Uncle Joe and Aunt Sarah and maybe Granny and even themselves??

Despite what some people think, our troops are not all unthinking uncaring robots who will blindly carry out any and all orders. And particularly against people they know and are related to, when the legality of those orders is suspect to begin with??

Sure, a few will do what ever they are told. And, a few will flatly refuse. And, beyond that, the administration giving those orders is going to see as much "malicious compliance" as humanly possible.

I'd bet you'd see a lot of "yessir, yessir, three bags full, sir" in response to the order, but "well, sir, seems like when we got there, there was no one there, sir..."
when it comes to carrying them out...

And that's only the tip of the possible iceberg.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old December 16, 2019, 03:10 AM   #22
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 13,442
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Despite what some people think, our troops are not all unthinking uncaring robots who will blindly carry out any and all orders. And particularly against people they know and are related to, when the legality of those orders is suspect to begin with??

Sure, a few will do what ever they are told. And, a few will flatly refuse. And, beyond that, the administration giving those orders is going to see as much "malicious compliance" as humanly possible.
All we need do is look at recent history -- hurricane Katrina (I think that was the one) in New Orleans. They didn't bring in the Louisiana National Guard. The people taking away people's guns were California Highway Patrol (Yes, CHiPs), NG from several states, and U.S. marshals.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old December 16, 2019, 08:02 AM   #23
USNRet93
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2018
Location: Republic of Boulder, USA
Posts: 1,467
Quote:
That they obtained a Democratic majority in a mid term election where the Democratic base is exceptionally worked up because a republican president they don’t like much is in office is not grounds for the far left to leap for joy.
NOT the point..30 DEM candidates ran un opposed in VA. I'll say again, the only 'poll' that means anything is the one from the ballot box. We'll see in 2020 if 75 out of 95 counties can come together to actually have candidates run..calling out the guy in the big chair is not important, as seen in the 'potential' laws coming down the pike in VA. BUT, again, that guy isn't necessarily a 'friend' to those who advocate gun rights. (RFL, UBC, 21 YO buy, bump stock ban, AR ban)...

BUT, yes, people are unhappy.....

It's not like this is any surprise to anybody or it shouldn't be..
__________________
PhormerPhantomPhlyer

"Tools not Trophies”
USNRet93 is offline  
Old December 17, 2019, 01:42 AM   #24
ronl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Posts: 1,094
Here are some interesting numbers to consider. Va has a population of about 8.2 million. The population of the counties defying those in Richmond is about 5 million. Considering that most of the counties are rural, and that the rural population is very well armed,say conservatively, 70%, that puts the number at around around 3.5 million. Of those in the mostly urban areas not aligning themselves with the sanctuary movement there are still a substantial number who still support it. Let us say around 30%, which I think would be close. That would be another 900,000. The threat of calling out the NG has been broached. The Va NG numbers around 7500 people, over half of which are support troops. Let's put the effective number at 3800. State Police has just a little under 2200 officers statewide. Here in the state emotions are, to put it mildly, elevated. The people are in a very foul mood. There is absolutely no appetite whatsoever to accept the registration proposed by the Northam/Bloomberg crowd. Things could go south very quickly. I spoke to a republican delegate this morning for quite some time and I asked him how determined the democrats were about pushing the proposed new laws through. He replied "very". If things were to go south in a very bad way, I do no think the state will have any true power to resist the citizenry. Let us say that 80% of the guard and police attempt to enforce the law. That would be around 4800 give or take. Let us say that 10% of the citizenry resisted. That number would be around 420,000. Those are not very good odds. One thing the delegate and I agreed upon was the inability of those in Richmond to comprehend the resolution of the people. I think they believe we will simply cave in as all good servants should do. Some counties are calling out the militia, one going so far as to appropriate money for it. Talking to the delegates on the other side is like talking to a brick wall. I surely hope cooler heads will come to the forefront in Richmond this Jan., but, I have my doubts.
ronl is offline  
Old December 17, 2019, 04:51 AM   #25
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 3,179
ronl I don’t for a second doubt your numbers... other than I don’t believe for a second that 80% of the NG would participate in enforcing the law. I digress, for your scenario let us assume it so. What I do believe, however, is that some of the stomach to enforce this weakens.

As it stands, they don’t have to go door to door. All they have to do is charge folks accordingly when they are caught violating the law by LEOs who are willing to enforce the law. I say that will be a relatively slim percentage of law enforcement in much of the state.

Conversely where I do see this potentially getting ugly is if some proactive law enforcement decide to go to the local range and enforce the law there as folks come to shoot their now prohibited firearms.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946
5whiskey is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09673 seconds with 8 queries