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Old November 12, 2019, 12:10 PM   #76
rep1954
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This thread gives me the urge for a 28ga.
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Old November 12, 2019, 04:22 PM   #77
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I always have the urge for a 28ga. Still don't own one.
The .410:
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That thinner pattern will be so full of holes at any distance that it's quite possible for a bird to fly away from a shot that would be a hit with the more than twice as much shot thrown by a 12 ga.(
Very true. I have seen this at the Trap range. Some shots that I know were good ones ...dead on the clay...and the clay flew on.
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Old November 12, 2019, 08:41 PM   #78
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Part of the problem is that the Mod/ Full chokes used on the 410 go back to the card wad days. I had my FAIR opened up to Skeet 1 & Skeet 2 (Fixed) and it does what I expect out to 25 -30 yards. The 410 was NEVER a 40 yard gun but too many people (makers included) tried to make them one.
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Old November 12, 2019, 09:58 PM   #79
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Some shots that I know were good ones ...dead on the clay...and the clay flew on.
If they clay flew on untouched, then clearly they weren't good shots.

I shot more than a bit of backyard trap in my school days (avg 100rnds a week)
which might not seem like a lot, but to a cash starved teen in the late 60s it was a lot.

Had a foot trap (Trius trap if I remember right), so it wasn't as random as a hand thrower. had a bolt action .410 and a Winchester Model 12 12ga. If you were 'on target" the .410 always broke the clay birds. Usually 2-3 large pieces. Full choke, no doubt.

Same degree of on target with the 12 (also full choke) turned the birds into powder. Very cool to see. The .410 broke them, the 12ga smoked 'em!

I did see my brother shoot the center out of a clay pigeon with the .410, without breaking the outer ring. Blind luck, and we both knew it.

The only real "problem" with the .410 is that it is a shotgun, and people think that because of that it should do everything other shotguns do, and do it as well, and that is simply not the case.

Want to wingshoot birds out to 40yds? The .410 is a poor choice. A really good shooter can do it, but that same shooter will have better results with a bigger bore shotgun.

Want to eradicate pests at shorter ranges, where the 12ga is simply just TOO much gun? .410 is your ticket there.
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Old November 13, 2019, 08:40 AM   #80
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Some shots that I know were good ones ...dead on the clay...and the clay flew on.
If they clay flew on untouched, then clearly they weren't good shots.
Maybe so. I am not a great shot but I am not referring to backyard trap or hand thrown clays. Those clays I hit regularly. Using a foot operated Trius, the clays are 15-20 yards away when i shoot and pretty much always in the same spot. I don’t miss many.
I bring the gun to the trap range occasionally- just to try my hand there with the smaller gun. Shooting from the 16 yard line, by the time i get to the bird it is over 30 yards away. I know where the gun shoots and how it patterns. Lots of big holes past 30 yards.
Maybe if I were faster on the bird....?
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Last edited by darkgael; November 13, 2019 at 08:48 AM.
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Old December 11, 2019, 04:45 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
I need to point out that there are no .45LC/.410 Bores, they are all .45 caliber barrels. They are .45 Colt guns that allow the firing of .410 shotshells.

They don't have a great reputation for accuracy with .45 Colt ammo, generally, because of the extra long jump the .45 bullet has to make to reach the rifling, which is further away from the bullet in guns made to take .410 shells as well. Some guns apparently do well enough, some don't. At pistol ranges its not usually a huge factor, but it could be, every gun is different.
I wasn't referring to the Bore diameter of the barrel, but rather to the .410 Bore shell. (Keep in mind that .410 is not a Gauge, but the diameter of the bore, ergo the cartridge's name is .410 Bore.)

So I've heard, but from what I've seen, reports of .45LCs inaccuracy out of .410 Bore cylinders is little more than assumption based on theory-craft. My Judge Magnum has been perfectly accurate shooting everything from 200gr JHPs to 255gr SWCs, despite the fact that its cylinder is chambered for 3" .410 shotshells. Furthermore, every .45LC accuracy test I've seen on YouTube has showcased good accuracy, including videos from folks who are critical of the Judge such as Paul Harrell. So in practice it would appear than any adverse effects the 2.5"-3" chambered cylinders of the Judge has on .45LC is too marginal to make a meaningful difference at average handgun distances. (Heck, Hickok45 had no problem hitting the gong at 80 yards with both the Taurus Judge and S&W Governor.)

So yeah, much like how shooting .38 Special out of a .357 Magnum, .44 Special out of a .44 Magnum, or for a much closer comparison, shooting .45LC out of a .460 S&W Magnum begets no practical loss of accuracy, it appears that even when it comes to more extreme differences between the OAL of cartridges and the subsequent distance the bullet must travel before it is engaged by the rifling, no appreciable loss of accuracy occurs when shooting .45LC out of the elongated cylinders of .410 Bore chambered revolvers.

Now, I'm sure that somewhere on the web their exists some botched or otherwise deliberately sabotaged test in which someone shoots .45LC squib loads out of the Judge/Governor which obviously keyhole out of the barrel or otherwise someone with a defective Judge/Governor with a canted barrel or fouled up rifling showcases their Judge/Governor's lack of accuracy shooting .45s which someone will inevitably call up as proof, but in my own personal shooting as well as a number of tests I've seen on YouTube, the Judge nor the Governor shows no appreciable loss of accuracy when shooting .45s.
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Old December 12, 2019, 04:41 PM   #82
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What does .410 do well?

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Teach kids to use a shotgun.
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But it doesn't teach that at all; it is the smallest payload which makes success even harder, and thus more discouraging.
OK .... I'll modify that: It teaches kids to persevere in getting better with the shotgun that they have .... to point that when they are big enough to handle a bigger gun, they will be REALLY good if they managed to be any good at all with the tiny .410..... that's how it worked for me and my brothers..... when I moved up to a 16 gauge after learning to hit doves and pheasants with the little .410, it seemed that I could not miss ..... I am pretty sure all 3 of us boys killed our first birds on the wing with that crappy little Japanese single shot .410 .... and all 3 of us became good with it. .... and everybody wonders why the most recent generations are such ...... nincompoops.

Quote:
The 28 would be a good one or - even better - loading 28 gauge level 3/4oz loads in a 20 or 12 the kid can handle.
The 28 would not have worked for me at all ..... I never heard of one growing up, and never saw any shells for one, either ..... It wasn't a thing in SW Nebraska in the 70's and 80's ...... The gas stations and hardware stores where we bought ammo never carried any such thing..... but they always had .410 shells, and I could ride my bike to Mercer's Husky station or the hardware store in town and buy a box of shells, and for less than a box of 12 guage ..... as for reloading, I only knew one person that reloaded shotgun shells back then- my Uncle on the other side of the state shot trap and skeet ..... I never asked and he never offered.
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Old December 12, 2019, 05:15 PM   #83
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That thinner pattern will be so full of holes at any distance that it's quite possible for a bird to fly away from a shot that would be a hit with the more than twice as much shot thrown by a 12 ga. In order to get enough pattern density for a sure hit, 410s tend to use tighter chokes for a given distance than a 12 ga. Which makes the pattern smaller and harder to hit with.

It's possible to get clean kills with a 410, if the distances are short and/or you're a really good shot.
Agreed. You want to get good? Practice with a full choked .410.
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Old December 13, 2019, 05:50 PM   #84
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but in my own personal shooting as well as a number of tests I've seen on YouTube, the Judge nor the Governor shows no appreciable loss of accuracy when shooting .45s.
That's wonderful. I don't have personal experience with the Judge/Governor or .45Colt/.410 cylinders.

I do have personal experience shooting the .45Colt/.410 out of a T/C Contender. Might have just been MY barrel, but my experience was that from that barrel my .45 Colt loads did not match the accuracy of that same ammo fired from my Ruger Blackhawk.

I got a .45 Colt (only) barrel and the same ammo shoots as well or slightly better than it does in the Blackhawk.

Every gun is a bit different. And just because you or I haven't seen a thing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just means we haven't seen it...
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Old December 13, 2019, 08:31 PM   #85
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Oh, don't get me wrong, a firearm chambered exclusively for .45 Long Colt will almost assuredly get better accuracy than a Judge because the Judge has shallow rifling, I'm just saying that reports of it having extremely poor accuracy are greatly exaggerated.

So yeah, if you were to pit the Judge against your Blackhawk, you'd most likely get better accuracy from the Blackhawk, even against a 6.5" Barreled Judge. But you'd still be able to hit your target with the Judge as well.

Generally speaking, accuracy from the Judge is best described as adequate. At reasonable self-defense distances, it will hit to point of aim.
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Old December 13, 2019, 09:37 PM   #86
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Generally speaking, accuracy from the Judge is best described as adequate. At reasonable self-defense distances, it will hit to point of aim.
Good to know. Though often a gun writer will use "adequate at reasonable self defense distances" to mean "I could hit the target, somewhere..."

Not meaning to bash the Judge/Governor in concept, while they are revolvers, they aren't revolvers like other revolvers.

I had an opportunity where a nest of rats (real rats, you know the ones almost big enough to put a saddle on...) under a barn needed eradication. a few of them managed to get out and the .410 Contender did yeoman service that day. I can see where a Judge would have done well, even better as a repeater.

But they aren't quite the same as something like a Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt in several ways. My years with 12ga gives me faith in buckshot (under suitable conditions) but its because of the mass. The .410 buckshot just doesn't seem that good, to me. However, the .410 slug is another matter.

The .410 is an excellent choice for a number of chores, but for wingshooting bigger bores are much, much better.
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Old December 14, 2019, 01:10 AM   #87
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What does .410 do well?
Start arguments with self proclaimed gun experts about it being useful in a revolver format.

But seriously, kicks less, easier to carry, can be challenging because of it's reduced performance.
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Old December 14, 2019, 09:19 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Good to know. Though often a gun writer will use "adequate at reasonable self defense distances" to mean "I could hit the target, somewhere..."

Not meaning to bash the Judge/Governor in concept, while they are revolvers, they aren't revolvers like other revolvers.

I had an opportunity where a nest of rats (real rats, you know the ones almost big enough to put a saddle on...) under a barn needed eradication. a few of them managed to get out and the .410 Contender did yeoman service that day. I can see where a Judge would have done well, even better as a repeater.

But they aren't quite the same as something like a Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt in several ways. My years with 12ga gives me faith in buckshot (under suitable conditions) but its because of the mass. The .410 buckshot just doesn't seem that good, to me. However, the .410 slug is another matter.

The .410 is an excellent choice for a number of chores, but for wingshooting bigger bores are much, much better.
Modern writers in general typically use words to mislead others, and unfortunately most writers of articles in gun magazines are strongly encouraged to write favorable articles regarding firearms which are manufactured by companies who sponser such publications in the form of paid advertisements.
However, I am employed by no such publication and have nothing to gain nor lose by speaking honestly , ergo my statements aren't euphemisms.

When I say that it has adequate accuracy at reasonable self-defense distances I mean that .45LC will hit to point of aim, provided of course that the firearm is in proper working condition. (i.e. If your Judge isn't an example of Taurus' infamous quality control.)
Heck, it will generally hit to point of aim well in excess of any typical self-defense distances, well out to any distance that one could expect to maintain accuracy with the .45LC cartridge out of a handgun, but seeing as the Judge is primarily a nightstand gun for me, in-home distances are what I'm most concerned with, I've never personally attempted a true long-range shot with it, so I cannot attest to anything more.

I will say this much though, Jerry Miculek once did a video on the Judge, and he seemed satisfied by its accuracy.
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Old December 15, 2019, 05:57 PM   #89
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.......it puts smiles on young kids faces.

and my old mug too.
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Old December 15, 2019, 07:30 PM   #90
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I don't know about the rest of you but I bagged plenty of rabbit and squirrel with a .410.

It puts down small game rather well. What it is that you want it to do?
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