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Old October 9, 2019, 09:50 AM   #1
Skans
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Komrad "Shotgun" - How Is This Not NFA?

I am interested in the Komrad not-a-Shotgun Pistol, but it sure looks like an SBS to me. How is this not an NFA gun.

FWIW, I posted this in General because it is supposedly not an NFA gun, not a shotgun, not a rifle - I don't know what the heck it is, so I posted it here.

https://i0.wp.com/www.gunsholstersan...rad.jpg?w=1000

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2...ov-usa-komrad/
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Old October 9, 2019, 10:23 AM   #2
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Its the same catagory as the Mossburg shockwave and the Remington Tac 14.

It is a receiver that has never had a stock on it. According to the ATF a “Shotgun” is designed to be fired from the shoulder. So it needs a stock. Manufactured without a stock and its a “firearm” not a “shotgun”
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Old October 9, 2019, 10:25 AM   #3
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It's a "firearm". Mossberg Shockwave, Remington Tac series, Fostech Origin, all
"firearms". Never had a buttstock, over 26" OAL.
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Old October 9, 2019, 12:02 PM   #4
Skans
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So, it's not a pistol and not an SBS. How easy would it be for BATFE to change the rules on this firearm to make it illegal or something that needs to be registered?
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Old October 9, 2019, 12:22 PM   #5
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How easy would it be for BATFE to change the rules on this firearm to make it illegal or something that needs to be registered?
Have you followed what was done with bump fire stocks? IT's that easy.


If you get one of these short "other weapon" shotguns, its legal, TODAY. Will probably be legal tomorrow. In two, or 4 year will it still be legal?? Roll the dice and ask you're Magic 8 Ball. They're just as likely to have the answer as anyone.

Lately, I'm thinking we should have the BATF(E) renamed to the Bureau of Adjustable Regulation of Firearms (BARF)!!

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Old October 9, 2019, 12:49 PM   #6
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How easy would it be for BATFE to change the rules on this firearm to make it illegal or something that needs to be registered?
They would need to change the definition of a “shotgun”. They did just that with “machine guns” to outlaw Bump stocks.

So the short answer is VERY EASY.
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Old October 9, 2019, 01:24 PM   #7
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"Lately, I'm thinking we should have the BATF(E) renamed to the Bureau of Adjustable Regulation of Firearms (BARF)!!"

Now, that's funny and accurate!

I was actually thinking that this could make a great, compact home defense weapon.
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Old October 9, 2019, 06:54 PM   #8
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A short barrel shotgun does make a fine defensive weapon. Unfortunately, because they also make a fine close range offensive weapon they have been heavily regulated since 1934.

We are stuck with the law, as it exists, and the BARF ..er pardon me, BATF rulings as they exist today, and whatever they turn into tomorrow.

So, get what you want, while its legal, and get a letter from the ATF stating it is legal, so that, when they change their minds, you at least have some proof you were acting in good faith, and maybe, you can seek compensation for the property they will seize, or require you to surrender, later...

Plus, if you ever do need to use it defensively, proof that it is a legal weapon (when you bought it) could be used to defuse any prosecution attempt claiming you used and (illegal) "sawed off shotgun".

Its one of those borderline guns, that will be claimed its a "loophole" and probably easily "thrown under the bus" the next time we need to "save the rest" of our right.

Good Luck, what ever you choose. Personally I would suggest if you get one, make NO changes to it what so ever. DO NOT change the pistol grip, stock, or anything else, because doing so, could move it from the legal category into the short barrel shotgun (aka "sawed off" category, which is illegal to possess without PRIOR BATF approval.
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Old October 10, 2019, 07:49 AM   #9
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"Personally I would suggest if you get one, make NO changes to it what so ever. DO NOT change the pistol grip, stock, or anything else, because doing so, could move it from the legal category into the short barrel shotgun (aka "sawed off" category, which is illegal to possess without PRIOR BATF approval."

That's good advice!
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Old October 10, 2019, 08:15 AM   #10
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It's a firearm, that by it's own admission is designed specifically to skirt present laws.

As others said, quite easy for the BATA to amend or change those laws. If and when they will, is anybody's guess. Probably will come down to the same scenario as bump stocks.
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Old October 10, 2019, 09:43 AM   #11
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With all the bullpups out there with an OAL of 26" and a full length 18" barrel I just don't see the point of this "not a shotgun". But what do I know? I thought the Shockwave and it's copies were pointless too and those sold like hot cakes... at least for a little while.

However a bullpup will likely be legal till they come for the all the rest of the guns.
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Old October 10, 2019, 12:31 PM   #12
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Lately, I'm thinking we should have the BATF(E) renamed to the Bureau of Adjustable Regulation of Firearms (BARF)!!
I really like this site.

I wish one of our legislators would bring this up to highlight the problems with this regulatory agency. (It applies to other 'regulatory' agencies too which should also be reined in.)
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Old October 10, 2019, 12:46 PM   #13
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"...for BATFE to change the rules..." The un-elected civil servants at the ATF wouldn't need to change a rule. They'd just decide they don't like it and declare it evil just like they decided a semi-auto only battle rifle that was once used as an FA, is still FA. I just wish they'd stop exporting their stupid ideas.
"...defuse any prosecution attempt..." That'd still cost thousands in lawyer's fees.
A 3" slug would really friggin' hurt to shoot out of a 7.15 pound Not-a-Shotgun.
"...don't see the point..." Big kid's toy. Just like anything similar.
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Old October 11, 2019, 04:24 AM   #14
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They're following the same route as the companies that make the mare's leg rifles. If the receiver wasn't originally manufactured for a "rifle" they can configure it as something else.

That said, I believe the mare's legs and short shotguns will suffer the same fate as bump stocks the first time one is used in a highly publicized crime.
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Old October 11, 2019, 12:25 PM   #15
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mag1911 They're following the same route as the companies that make the mare's leg rifles.
What companies make "mare's leg rifles"?
The "mare's leg" is a handgun.




Quote:
If the receiver wasn't originally manufactured for a "rifle" they can configure it as something else.
Wrong for several reasons.
1.Firearm receivers are firearm receivers, not handgun receivers, not rifle receivers not anything but "receiver".
2. A firearm receiver can be assembled into a handgun, long gun (rifle or shotgun) or other firearm not meeting the definition of handgun or long gun, including SBR, SBS & AOW.
3. Firearm frames that can only be assembled as "handguns" or only as "long guns" are still just firearm receivers, they are not handguns or long guns until assembled as such and meet the definition under federal law.
4. A firearm receiver marked "rifle" or "carbine" can be assembled as a handgun because the marking is irrelevant.
5. Firearms first assembled as a handgun, may subsequently be assembled as a rifle, then later be reconfigured as a handgun.
6. Firearms first assembled as a rifle or shotgun, remain a rifle or shotgun.
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Old October 11, 2019, 10:24 PM   #16
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It's a "firearm". Mossberg Shockwave, Remington Tac series, Fostech Origin, all
"firearms". Never had a buttstock, over 26" OAL.
Yup, and not subject to NFA . . . until a nut job uses one to do evil in a gun-free-zone . . . It will go the way of bump stocks.
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Old October 12, 2019, 05:43 AM   #17
mag1911
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I could have been a little more clear; "If the receiver wasn't originally manufactured INTO a "rifle" they can configure it as something else."

And I shouldn't have called it a "mare's leg rifle", just a mare's leg. Looks like a rifle to some but it's not since it never had a rifle length barrel or stock.
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Old October 12, 2019, 10:00 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by mag1911
And I shouldn't have called it a "mare's leg rifle", just a mare's leg. Looks like a rifle to some but it's not since it never had a rifle length barrel or stock.
Perhaps, like me, you are old enough to remember the Steve McQueen television western in which the mare's leg was a central aspect of McQueen's on-screen persona. There was a write-up on the actual gun(s) used in the series (I believe there were three of four, not just one). Aside from the obvious (to us adults) fact that the firearm was NOT chambered for those mortar rounds that McQueen carried around in the loops on his belt, IIRC the article also mentioned something about the actual television guns having been illegal. And that was because they were cut-down rifles that violated the NFA.

If you compare photos of any of the modern Mare's Leg offerings with a photo of the original(s), you'll see that the modern copies have longer barrels (and sometimes longer stocks) than the ones McQueen carried. That's so the modern reproductions can be sold as legal handguns.

But there's no way I would or could have known any of that when I was watching the television series as a kid.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare%27s_Leg

Quote:
Designed by Kenny "Von Dutch" Howard, an experienced artist and gunsmith,[5] the original Mare's Leg was made by cutting down a .44-40 caliber Winchester Model 1892 rifle to a size that could be worn in a large leg holster and used with one hand. The barrel was cut to a length of nine inches, and much of the butt-stock was removed. The original Mare's Leg did not have sights. McQueen was involved in the final design, suggesting the duck-bill hammer and enlarged lever loop, and initiating a redesign of the custom holster. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms was not consulted before the program aired and producers had to pay taxes totaling $1,100 in connection with the National Firearms Act of 1934.
Quote:
A number of companies have marketed functional reproductions of the Mare's Leg, making them the same way as the original, by cutting down Winchester rifles. These reproductions also have the same legal restrictions as the original: a rifle may not have a barrel length less than 16 inches (41 cm) without obtaining a tax stamp from the ATF, in accordance with the National Firearms Act.

Other companies have marketed reproductions originally made and sold as handguns. Because of the legal restrictions, non-functional prop-quality replicas have been produced by some of the same companies that make functional copies.
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Old October 12, 2019, 05:16 PM   #19
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Aguila Blanca

If you compare photos of any of the modern Mare's Leg offerings with a photo of the original(s), you'll see that the modern copies have longer barrels (and sometimes longer stocks) than the ones McQueen carried. That's so the modern reproductions can be sold as legal handguns.
Nope.
Barrel length has nothing to do with anything on a handgun.
The recent production "mares leg" stocks are short enough that they do not serve as a shoulder stock, but as a "short stock designed to be gripped with one hand.

What makes the "mares leg" handguns? It's because they meet the definition of handgun under federal law.

CFR 478.11
Handgun. (a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.
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Old October 13, 2019, 03:27 AM   #20
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I used to watch it when I was a kid, probably in syndication. I believe it's still on cable somewhere.

I've read the ammo belt contained 45-70 rounds for the visual effect. 45-70 out of a mare's leg would be quite an experience.
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Old October 13, 2019, 09:06 PM   #21
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I am guessing these shotguns fall in the same catagory as the Ithaca model 37 Stakeout with a 13" barrel and a pistol grip stock and were legal to buy and own for a simple $5 transfer fee. And they were legal because they were factory made this way. And I am going on my memory of a Guns & Ammo article on the guns written long ago.

If anyone remembers the 80's TV show Miami Vice the character named "Tubbs" used a model 37 Stakeout to back up whatever snubby revolver he carried. And the model 37 had the unique feature that allowed you to fire the gun by holding the trigger back and pumping the forearm. As soon as the action closed it would fire.

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smal...allarms_id=107
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Old October 13, 2019, 09:20 PM   #22
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OK you guys made me curious. I really wasn't aware of the Remington Tac 14 or the Mossberg Shockwave. So I looked them up on GB. I guess the goofy looking rear stock is there to get over the 26" length and installing a pistol grip would shorten the gun enough that it would be illegal?

Of the two which one do you all think is the best? I know the Mossberg 500 action has been around for years and used by the military and the Remingtom 870 action was used by every police force for decades so which would you buy. I am interested.
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Old October 14, 2019, 05:18 AM   #23
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All I can say is... please don’t email them and ask them as this has shown to make them question the “regulations” :|.
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Old October 14, 2019, 01:17 PM   #24
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ratshooter I am guessing these shotguns fall in the same catagory as the Ithaca model 37 Stakeout with a 13" barrel and a pistol grip stock
They do not.
The Ithaca 37 you describe is an NFA firearm "Any Other Weapon".
The Komrad, Rem870 Tac 14" and Mossberg Shockwave are not AOW's and do not require registration.



Quote:
and were legal to buy and own for a simple $5 transfer fee.
The $5 is simple, the 8-12 month wait for the tax stamp isn't.




Quote:
And they were legal because they were factory made this way.
Well no.
They "were legal" for the same reason any NFA firearm is legal....it meets the definition in federal law and the appropriate federal tax is paid. Short barreled shotguns, Short barreled rifles, silencers, AOW's......all legal if the tax is paid. Being "factory made" has nothing to do with it.





Quote:
If anyone remembers the 80's TV show Miami Vice the character named "Tubbs" used a model 37 Stakeout to back up whatever snubby revolver he carried. And the model 37 had the unique feature that allowed you to fire the gun by holding the trigger back and pumping the forearm. As soon as the action closed it would fire.
Not unique to the TV gun....it's called a "slam fire". Other shotguns (like the Win 97) can do it as well if they do not have a trigger disconnector.
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Old October 14, 2019, 03:10 PM   #25
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So, get what you want, while its legal, and get a letter from the ATF stating it is legal, so that, when they change their minds, you at least have some proof you were acting in good faith, and maybe, you can seek compensation for the property they will seize, or require you to surrender, later...
Remember if you call the IRS, ask for information, are given the wrong information and follow it you are liable for the application of the wrong information (including any fines) even if everyone agrees on the chain of events.

The very existence of those letters indicates to me everyone knew they were in enough of a grey area that they wanted a letter.

Not an area I want to play in. Do what you* want but don't kid yourself on the safety of doing it

*the rhetorical you not necessarily the quote I am replying to
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