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November 16, 2013, 09:54 AM | #1 |
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Airgun suppressors, firearms, and constructive posession
Well what are the rules here? I assume at a bare minimum threads would have to be different, but would that make it ok? Maybe the pressure difference is enough that they would be useless anyways so no problem. Thinking about suppressing a 45 air rifle, but don't want any problems.
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November 16, 2013, 10:59 AM | #2 |
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I'm pretty sure an air gun suppressor has to be permanently attached to the barrel to keep it from being used on a firearm. The basic principles of the design are the same, so any air gun suppressor put on a firearm would be considered a silencer by the BATFE, even if it didn't work that well.
But that's pretty much all I know about the legalities of them compared to firearm suppressors. Because they work on the same principle, it seems like you might be in a grey area regarding constructive possession when you were making the thing.
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November 16, 2013, 02:50 PM | #3 |
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Airgun suppressors are worthless. The two noises Airguns make are: 1) crack from pellet traveling faster than speed of sound; and 2) sound of the heavy bolt on a springer slamming into the chamber. A suppressor does noting to quiet either of these sounds, nor does it need to. suppressors simply quiet the report of the explosion in gun-powder based firearms.
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November 16, 2013, 05:46 PM | #4 |
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Skans, he said he wants to suppress a 45 air rifle. I'm guessing it is one of those Quackenbush air guns or something like it. They use a great deal of compressed air all at one time rather than a powerful spring. Kinda sorta like the rapidly expanding gasses that come from burning gunpowder. Except not, because it's just a lot of compressed air.
If my guess is correct, he has a gun like one of these... http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/
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November 16, 2013, 10:19 PM | #5 | ||
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Quote:
If it will suppress an airgun (and isn't integral to the airgun in a manner that prevents its removal and use on a firearm) then it will also suppress a firearm (even if only for one shot) and therefore is a silencer in the legal sense and all NFA regulations apply. If you want a detachable suppressor for an airgun, then you find one that will work for your airgun and go through the NFA process to acquire it. If you want a suppressed airgun without the NFA hassle, you will need to purchase an airgun that is integrally suppressed from the manufacturer. Quote:
1. Sonic "boom" if the pellet exceeds the speed of sound. This is rarely an issue because best accuracy is typically not achieved with supersonic pellets. 2. Mechanical noise--hammer falling, springs/pistons moving/vibrating, etc. 3. Muzzle blast. Obviously a silencer has no effect on components 1 or 2, however the last item is significant. While the muzzle blast of an airgun isn't as energetic as that of a firearm, the more powerful PCP airguns exhaust a sufficient amount of high-pressure air from the muzzle to require hearing protection. Even conventional airguns can have enough muzzle blast to be objectionable. A powerful spring-piston airgun's discharge noise is reduced by perhaps 30% by the addition of a suppressor. It provides some benefit, but it's typically not a pronounced sound reduction. A powerful PCP airgun's discharge noise is virtually eliminated with subsonic pellets when a quality suppressor is added. All you hear is the valve being actuated by the hammer.
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November 16, 2013, 11:47 PM | #6 |
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Yeah, JohnKSa said it well, moderators on air guns are definitely NOT worthless. My PCP rifle shoots pellets sub-sonic and if the moderator is off (yes, it can be removed), it is annoyingly loud. Not quite as loud as a .22LR but, qafter a few shots you really don't like the sound.
My moderator is held on to the barrel with two Allen screws. Perfectly legal to own without any special license. Lou |
November 18, 2013, 12:10 AM | #7 |
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JohnKSa pretty much hit it. For the record though, "integral to the airgun in a manner that prevents its removal and use on a firearm" probably doesn't really exist. If you can remove it in ANY way, even hack saw or cutting torch, and attach it to a real firearm in ANY way, even duct tape or super glue, you can be dinged on it. The BATF gets to decide what constitutes "removable". Been there, done that
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November 18, 2013, 08:35 AM | #8 | |
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Quote:
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November 18, 2013, 10:35 AM | #9 | |
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Skans, help with this please. Did you get your wording off?
Quote:
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November 18, 2013, 11:23 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
Last edited by Skans; November 18, 2013 at 12:02 PM. |
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November 18, 2013, 03:21 PM | #11 |
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OK, I understand what you are getting at now. I was confused for a bit
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November 18, 2013, 05:20 PM | #12 |
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You guys are lucky. The police in at least one of the states here recently ruled that the barrel shrouds on air rifles are considered suppressors and hence ordered them all to be turned in.
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November 19, 2013, 12:02 AM | #13 | |||||
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Quote:
A powerful PCP airgun's discharge noise is virtually eliminated when a quality suppressor is added, if the muzzle velocity is subsonic . All you hear is the valve being actuated by the hammer. Quote:
Quote:
PCP airguns, especially the more powerful ones, can generate a very sharp muzzle blast and can benefit tremendously from being suppressed. That's because nearly all of the discharge noise of a PCP is muzzle blast. There is very little mechanical noise in a PCP discharge as compared to a springer. Quote:
Quote:
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November 19, 2013, 01:17 PM | #14 | ||
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Quote:
Lou |
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November 19, 2013, 04:27 PM | #15 |
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Under Federal Law in general terms, an air rifle is not a firearm as it uses compressed air as a propellent and not an explosive. There are exceptions, and they leave plenty enough room for individual States to see things differently.
That being said, don't get lost, the definition of a suppressor is the only part of the issue that matters.
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November 19, 2013, 06:58 PM | #16 |
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Airgun suppressors, firearms, and constructive posession
I have a suppressed .22 cal air rifle from the factory and I can't hear much difference in one that doesn't.
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November 19, 2013, 10:13 PM | #17 | |
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100% relevant
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nati...un-suppressers
Quote:
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November 19, 2013, 10:17 PM | #18 | ||
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If the device can be attached to a firearm and would reasonably be expected to reduced the sound of the discharge of the firearm--even for only one shot--then it fits the definition of a silencer and is subject to NFA regulations. Quote:
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November 20, 2013, 12:07 AM | #19 |
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The key here, with air rifles and their factory installed "moderators" or whatever they choose to call them, is don't poke the sleeping bear. In this case the BATF. If they aren't paying any attention to air rifles, then don't give them any reason to. That's how paintball got in trouble over it.
In their case it was called a Concealer, and it was not a stand alone device. It was a tube of pvc approximately 2" in diameter, 2 delrin spacers with O-rings on the OD, and a small sheet of furnace filter type foam. It's purpose was to "conceal" the cloud of co2 vapor that was a popular power source at the time. The delrin spacers had an ID of approximately 7/8" and were press fit onto a special made barrel for the various paintball guns of the day. The barrel itself was punched full of holes in the area that would be covered by the pvc tube, which slip fit over the o-rings on the delrin spacers. If you removed all this from the barrel you had nothing by any reasonable account. A tube, some spacers, and some foam, that's it. It was of no use at all unless installed on a barrel specifically designed to accept it. The problem was some nimrod sent the entire thing, barrel and all, to the BATF and demanded a ruling. Guess how that turned out. The moral is, don't force them to make a ruling on something that's not on their radar. If you sent them an entire air rifle that had one of these moderators and asked, you'd might get a negative. Send them just the barrel with the moderator on it and demand to know if it constitutes a silencer you might get an answer you don't like. In the paintball case the agents involved flat out said they would never have gotten involved at ALL, even though they knew of it's existence, except the afore mentioned nimrod sent one in and made them take an official stance. They demanded an immediate cease and desist on the manufacturing end of things, with fines and jail time for non-compliance, and that's where it ended. No one went to jail and people that owned one were not tracked down and invaded. The funny thing is, the paintball barrel full of holes was actually quieter without the concealer attached, and those kinds of barrels are still sold today. |
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