Right situation for use of Pistol? - Page 2

ursavus.elemensis · May 13, 2010, 08:10 PM

In your scenario, I am not sure how you and the four youths got to the edge of the woods to meet up with the cop. Sounds like you marched the four stooges at gunpoint out of the woods. THAT, my dear self-defending citizen, is called kidnapping, and that's a felony. In PA, the Uniform Firearms Act has very specific wording about holding another person at gunpoint, and I would suspect that the wording has been little tested, if at all, in court. You'd totally be at the mercy of the jury. Once the threat was neutralized, you were no longer justified in using the threat of deadly force on them. And, by marching them out at gunpoint, you were placing them in mortal danger.

I was actually once in a similar situation, many years ago. It was our routine practice, and that of hundreds of other folks, to routinely become uninvited guests onto the private property of the family of a certain former Governor of Pennsylvania to hike along the stream on the property and to swim in the waterfalls. Well, one day we were back in there, about 5 of us, and a "caretaker" comes out of the woods with pistol drawn and demands that we get out. OK, no problem, we were not going to mess with the guy, and we'd have been very happy to walk back down the stream to our cars (about 30 minutes walk, maybe 45), and get out. Nope, he wanted us to go his way, along the ridge line and he made us walk in front of him with him walking behind us with the gun drawn the whole time. This was like about 1982, somewhere around there. I was thinking the whole time that I hope this guy doesn't trip on a rock or something and pull that trigger by accident. None of us was armed. We walked out and there was no incident with the guy, and no, we did not report him, but we could have.

Lokpyrite · May 14, 2010, 12:11 PM

Sounds like a bunch of suicidal punks, help them commit suicide

kdog70 · May 14, 2010, 03:58 PM

Wow a lot of responses. I have had time to cool down. They have been charged but basically going to plea out I didn't get charged and they just told me you were lucky you didn't get hurt or hurt someone. Then the officer today told me that I would probably seen in civil court. He didn't elaborate and I don't care because there is a 4 year wait to get into court (so I've heard) and my lawyer said they didn't have a strong enough case to even make it worth it their time. So I got lucky, got a good, tearful, apology from everyone. I apologized, I don't know why but I did, and went on my way.

biohazurd · May 14, 2010, 08:10 PM

Id have my hand on my 1911 as they started to threaten me, and the very second i see a blade or any other deadly weapon, they would have a .45 pointed right at them.

wayneinFL · May 15, 2010, 02:39 AM

Well, you are lucky you didn't get stabbed and lucky you didn't have to shoot anybody. I don't think that makes you a bad guy.

Murdock · May 15, 2010, 08:30 AM

You did good. Nobody hurt, especially you. Dropping the hammer would have been a life changing event, no matter how it came out, and you avoided both that and personal injury.

Following a daylight burglary of my home by an underage felon, I asked the responding cop (this was in Virginia) under what circumstances I would have been justified in using deadly force. One thing he told me has always stuck with me: half of all violent crimes are committed by people under 18.

Do these clowns know your name? Watch your back.

FM12 · May 16, 2010, 12:05 AM

These thugswont be around very long, some other intended victim will not be as patient with them.

You did good as far as I'm concerned.

Sometimes the first to caLL 911 is the good guy, regardless.

Head-Space · May 17, 2010, 09:53 PM

If someone commits a violent crime against you -- armed robbery or attempted -- holding them at gunpoint, taking them into custody is NOT "kidnapping."

Besides criminal charges against them, you should bring a civil complaint. Sue their parents. I can't believe for an instant that any Grand Jury in the land would indict anyone for use of a firearm in defense against an armed robbery.

They're lucky no one got shot. You were certainly justified in shooting them in defense. Bring a civil suit to bear against them. You'll win, and they need the grief.

one2gofst · May 17, 2010, 10:12 PM

I don't have a problem with the way you handled it. In fact, I'd say you showed serious restraint. Probably best for everyone, except the person they'll try this to later

That said, I have to disagree with the above poster. I'd say no one has much legal ground for a civil suit. What exact damages could any party claim in this case?

BlackFeather · May 18, 2010, 12:47 AM

This reminds me why I carry a weapon when I go fishing... I don't carry a gun but at least a large knife, sometimes a machete depending on where I go...

I think it was handled well. Still curious on the part on how you marched them to the officer..

Indy_Guy_77 · May 19, 2010, 09:31 AM

Kdog,

IF you are sued in civil court, then you and your lawyer just go right ahead and sue each of the yutes, and all of their parents and grand parents in return.

And make the amount for each of those lawsuits double what you're being sued civilly for.

Agree to drop yours if they drop theirs.

-J-

wayneinFL · May 24, 2010, 09:32 PM

+1 on the damages. No one got hurt. Emotional distress would be pretty thin. Who knows? They may sue, but I can't see them getting anything, and I'd be surprised to see a lawyer take the case without a retainer.

booker_t · May 25, 2010, 08:24 AM

Chucklehead pulls a knife, I hope you got one in the pipe. Give him a good look to be sure.

Sounds like you did a fine job, although I agree that marching them out might be an issue. Then again you have to be wary of them damaging your vehicle as they leave the area.

Don P · May 25, 2010, 08:40 AM

I suggest you read In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob then repost your question if it does not satisfy your thoughts.

Glenn Dee · May 25, 2010, 06:44 PM

I wouldnt worry too much about the civil suit. The entire incident was initiated by them. Most of the libility will be assigned to them. The were arrested by the police, and are pleading guilty to reduced charges to clear the case. In essence they are taking legal/criminal responsibility for their actions.

IMO you handled the situation perfectly. Also IMO holding the perpetrators fr the police isnt kidnapping, but a citizens arrest.

Again... good job...

TXGunNut · May 25, 2010, 09:42 PM

Wet or dry flies? Match the hatch? Which taper? Ever heard of situational awareness? You were lucky, they weren't committed enough to take advantage of their superior situation. Enjoy your drink.
Anybody who doesn't think this case won't see the light of day in civil court hasn't spent any time there.

one2gofst · May 25, 2010, 09:51 PM

LMAO, yeah no one else here has spent as much time as the guy who joined in January.

stephen426 · May 25, 2010, 10:06 PM

Sounds like you did fine to me too kdog70. I'm glad things turned out about as good as they could have. You didn't have to shoot anyone and they probably reconsidered their future as criminals.

While some people talk about tactical advantage and all that, I think your restraint was the right move. Four on one is bad odds, but you are a big guy and you were dealing with young punks. I'm sure you read them correctly and decided they would back down. I'm sure some others might have actually shot one or more of them.

If I was in that situation, I would probably draw and have the gun at low ready while issuing some aggressive threats. It would probably go something like "back the bleep off or else" or "Take another step towards me and I WILL SHOOT YOU".

TXGunNut · May 25, 2010, 10:12 PM

You're right, one2gofst, kinda new at this forum thing. Kinda like it tho. Nobody pointing guns or knives at me.
My real-world experience somewhat pre-dates my joining here, may even predate all but the earliest semiconductors. Thought I had something to share. My mistake. Feel free to ingore my newbie posts.

booker_t · May 26, 2010, 09:38 AM

kdog, in hindsight, now that you've had some time to reflect, what would you have done differently, if anything? Was there a more favorable outcome than the one that happened, and if so, how do you think you could have reached it?

How did they know you were there? Did they spot your vehicle near the road and follow you down? Any idea if this was a first time thing for them or did they seem like they were more organized? Did you ever suspect they were going to attempt robbery prior to them requesting your wallet?

I know this isn't a legal sub-forum, but..

For them to bring a suit for any kind of emotional distress would require an expert witness, such as a psychologist or other doctor, to provide that diagnosis. Which means time and money from the kids and their parents to see the specialist, plus a lawyer to take the case after they plead guilty to attempted robbery (or a reduced misdemeanor depending on the bargain). I'm no lawyer, but that seems like a long shot. I can't see many doctors putting themselves out on a limb in that situation.

kdog doesn't have much to sue for either, perhaps something stemming from denial of access to public fishing areas, nightmares, I don't know. More hassle than it's worth, and filing any kind of suit exposes him to coutersuit, and compromises his personal security as his full information would be entered into the public record.

Likely the judge will make it tough on the kids and the parents, especially if it's their first time. Make it something they don't easily forget, and that's the end of it.

May 13, 2010, 08:10 PM	#26
ursavus.elemensis Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Location: southcentral/southeastern PA Posts: 375	In your scenario, I am not sure how you and the four youths got to the edge of the woods to meet up with the cop. Sounds like you marched the four stooges at gunpoint out of the woods. THAT, my dear self-defending citizen, is called kidnapping, and that's a felony. In PA, the Uniform Firearms Act has very specific wording about holding another person at gunpoint, and I would suspect that the wording has been little tested, if at all, in court. You'd totally be at the mercy of the jury. Once the threat was neutralized, you were no longer justified in using the threat of deadly force on them. And, by marching them out at gunpoint, you were placing them in mortal danger. I was actually once in a similar situation, many years ago. It was our routine practice, and that of hundreds of other folks, to routinely become uninvited guests onto the private property of the family of a certain former Governor of Pennsylvania to hike along the stream on the property and to swim in the waterfalls. Well, one day we were back in there, about 5 of us, and a "caretaker" comes out of the woods with pistol drawn and demands that we get out. OK, no problem, we were not going to mess with the guy, and we'd have been very happy to walk back down the stream to our cars (about 30 minutes walk, maybe 45), and get out. Nope, he wanted us to go his way, along the ridge line and he made us walk in front of him with him walking behind us with the gun drawn the whole time. This was like about 1982, somewhere around there. I was thinking the whole time that I hope this guy doesn't trip on a rock or something and pull that trigger by accident. None of us was armed. We walked out and there was no incident with the guy, and no, we did not report him, but we could have. __________________ "A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people." -The Declaration of Independence

May 14, 2010, 12:11 PM	#27
Lokpyrite Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2009 Posts: 367	Sounds like a bunch of suicidal punks, help them commit suicide __________________ The more people I meet the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.

May 14, 2010, 03:58 PM	#28
kdog70 Member Join Date: September 18, 2008 Location: Marquette,Mi Posts: 89	Update Wow a lot of responses. I have had time to cool down. They have been charged but basically going to plea out I didn't get charged and they just told me you were lucky you didn't get hurt or hurt someone. Then the officer today told me that I would probably seen in civil court. He didn't elaborate and I don't care because there is a 4 year wait to get into court (so I've heard) and my lawyer said they didn't have a strong enough case to even make it worth it their time. So I got lucky, got a good, tearful, apology from everyone. I apologized, I don't know why but I did, and went on my way.

May 15, 2010, 08:30 AM	#31
Murdock Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2008 Location: Down East Maine Posts: 431	Thumbs up! You did good. Nobody hurt, especially you. Dropping the hammer would have been a life changing event, no matter how it came out, and you avoided both that and personal injury. Following a daylight burglary of my home by an underage felon, I asked the responding cop (this was in Virginia) under what circumstances I would have been justified in using deadly force. One thing he told me has always stuck with me: half of all violent crimes are committed by people under 18. Do these clowns know your name? Watch your back. __________________ The United States Marine Corps: Providing the enemies of America the opportunity to die for their countries since 1775. Semper fi.

May 18, 2010, 12:47 AM	#35
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	This reminds me why I carry a weapon when I go fishing... I don't carry a gun but at least a large knife, sometimes a machete depending on where I go... I think it was handled well. Still curious on the part on how you marched them to the officer.. __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

May 14, 2010, 08:10 PM	#29
biohazurd Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Posts: 340	Id have my hand on my 1911 as they started to threaten me, and the very second i see a blade or any other deadly weapon, they would have a .45 pointed right at them.

May 15, 2010, 02:39 AM	#30
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	Well, you are lucky you didn't get stabbed and lucky you didn't have to shoot anybody. I don't think that makes you a bad guy.

May 16, 2010, 12:05 AM	#32
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	These thugswont be around very long, some other intended victim will not be as patient with them. You did good as far as I'm concerned. Sometimes the first to caLL 911 is the good guy, regardless.

May 17, 2010, 09:53 PM	#33
Head-Space Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Posts: 187	If someone commits a violent crime against you -- armed robbery or attempted -- holding them at gunpoint, taking them into custody is NOT "kidnapping." Besides criminal charges against them, you should bring a civil complaint. Sue their parents. I can't believe for an instant that any Grand Jury in the land would indict anyone for use of a firearm in defense against an armed robbery. They're lucky no one got shot. You were certainly justified in shooting them in defense. Bring a civil suit to bear against them. You'll win, and they need the grief.

May 17, 2010, 10:12 PM	#34
one2gofst Member Join Date: November 10, 2002 Posts: 35	I don't have a problem with the way you handled it. In fact, I'd say you showed serious restraint. Probably best for everyone, except the person they'll try this to later That said, I have to disagree with the above poster. I'd say no one has much legal ground for a civil suit. What exact damages could any party claim in this case?

May 19, 2010, 09:31 AM	#36
Indy_Guy_77 Member Join Date: April 24, 2007 Location: Indy Posts: 70	Kdog, IF you are sued in civil court, then you and your lawyer just go right ahead and sue each of the yutes, and all of their parents and grand parents in return. And make the amount for each of those lawsuits double what you're being sued civilly for. Agree to drop yours if they drop theirs. -J-

May 24, 2010, 09:32 PM	#37
wayneinFL Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2004 Posts: 1,944	+1 on the damages. No one got hurt. Emotional distress would be pretty thin. Who knows? They may sue, but I can't see them getting anything, and I'd be surprised to see a lawyer take the case without a retainer.

May 25, 2010, 08:24 AM	#38
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	Chucklehead pulls a knife, I hope you got one in the pipe. Give him a good look to be sure. Sounds like you did a fine job, although I agree that marching them out might be an issue. Then again you have to be wary of them damaging your vehicle as they leave the area. Last edited by booker_t; May 25, 2010 at 08:30 AM.

May 25, 2010, 08:40 AM	#39
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	I suggest you read In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob then repost your question if it does not satisfy your thoughts. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

May 25, 2010, 06:44 PM	#40
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	I wouldnt worry too much about the civil suit. The entire incident was initiated by them. Most of the libility will be assigned to them. The were arrested by the police, and are pleading guilty to reduced charges to clear the case. In essence they are taking legal/criminal responsibility for their actions. IMO you handled the situation perfectly. Also IMO holding the perpetrators fr the police isnt kidnapping, but a citizens arrest. Again... good job...

May 25, 2010, 09:42 PM	#41
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Wet or dry flies? Match the hatch? Which taper? Ever heard of situational awareness? You were lucky, they weren't committed enough to take advantage of their superior situation. Enjoy your drink. Anybody who doesn't think this case won't see the light of day in civil court hasn't spent any time there. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights. Last edited by TXGunNut; May 25, 2010 at 09:48 PM. Reason: because I always do it

May 25, 2010, 09:51 PM	#42
one2gofst Member Join Date: November 10, 2002 Posts: 35	LMAO, yeah no one else here has spent as much time as the guy who joined in January.

May 25, 2010, 10:06 PM	#43
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	Sounds like you did fine to me too kdog70. I'm glad things turned out about as good as they could have. You didn't have to shoot anyone and they probably reconsidered their future as criminals. While some people talk about tactical advantage and all that, I think your restraint was the right move. Four on one is bad odds, but you are a big guy and you were dealing with young punks. I'm sure you read them correctly and decided they would back down. I'm sure some others might have actually shot one or more of them. If I was in that situation, I would probably draw and have the gun at low ready while issuing some aggressive threats. It would probably go something like "back the bleep off or else" or "Take another step towards me and I WILL SHOOT YOU". __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!

May 25, 2010, 10:12 PM	#44
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	You're right, one2gofst, kinda new at this forum thing. Kinda like it tho. Nobody pointing guns or knives at me. My real-world experience somewhat pre-dates my joining here, may even predate all but the earliest semiconductors. Thought I had something to share. My mistake. Feel free to ingore my newbie posts. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

May 26, 2010, 09:38 AM	#45
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	kdog, in hindsight, now that you've had some time to reflect, what would you have done differently, if anything? Was there a more favorable outcome than the one that happened, and if so, how do you think you could have reached it? How did they know you were there? Did they spot your vehicle near the road and follow you down? Any idea if this was a first time thing for them or did they seem like they were more organized? Did you ever suspect they were going to attempt robbery prior to them requesting your wallet? I know this isn't a legal sub-forum, but.. For them to bring a suit for any kind of emotional distress would require an expert witness, such as a psychologist or other doctor, to provide that diagnosis. Which means time and money from the kids and their parents to see the specialist, plus a lawyer to take the case after they plead guilty to attempted robbery (or a reduced misdemeanor depending on the bargain). I'm no lawyer, but that seems like a long shot. I can't see many doctors putting themselves out on a limb in that situation. kdog doesn't have much to sue for either, perhaps something stemming from denial of access to public fishing areas, nightmares, I don't know. More hassle than it's worth, and filing any kind of suit exposes him to coutersuit, and compromises his personal security as his full information would be entered into the public record. Likely the judge will make it tough on the kids and the parents, especially if it's their first time. Make it something they don't easily forget, and that's the end of it.