The rule says stay on scene,but.... - Page 2

Deaf Smith · January 2, 2017, 05:40 PM

Good job Frank Ettin. That's a good legal precedence to show up to people so they understand running away has it's own set of risk.

Deaf

HiBC · January 3, 2017, 05:43 AM

Thanks for the answers! The post generated enough discussion to indicate it was a good question.
"Stay alive" is pretty much always the best choice.
We can try to exercise the option to not be in the wrong place at the wrong time.That gives a percentage,but its not absolute.
IMO,giving up tracts of our country to "Don't go there zones" is contributing to the problem.
To those with the glib advice about not going to impoverished minority neighborhoods(yes,it was written carefully) Your comment re-enforces the point."Don't go where THOSE PEOPLE are.".The flip side is "Why is one of THOSE PEOPLE in my neighborhood."
Tribal mobbing ,it seems,is a dark side of human nature.
My question ,and this situation,can equally apply if an impoverished minority individual is alone and vulnerable in an affluent majority neighborhood..
Any of us can be driving through a place where we are unfamiliar,detoured,or a service person on a call,or just deciding to try a recommended restaurant.
Lightning can strike just about anywhere.

For many years I figured I did not need a concealed permit,based on simple logic."If I need a gun to go there,I should not go there"

"There" can be anywhere.

Its good to have some ideas ahead of time.

"Self defense in a potentially hostile environment"

Even cops have a hard time with that one these days.

FTG-05 · January 3, 2017, 10:05 PM

"Not always possible and just a thought to ponder, bad things happen to good people in good places (what we assume are good places) "

Except that isn't what the OP posited is it?

What the OP posited was "bad things happening to good people" and then "more bad things coming out of the wood work".

FFS it's not rocket science. Don't want to have bad things coming out of the wood work: Stay out of the rich and vibrant areas.

TXAZ · January 3, 2017, 10:29 PM

If the situation gets 'to there', you have to decide if you want to be judged by 12 or stick around and possibly be carried by 6.

Life's choices aren't always so simple and clear.

**OldMarksman** · January 4, 2017, 10:39 AM

Quote:

If the situation gets 'to there', you have to decide if you want to be judged by 12 or stick around and possibly be carried by 6.

If you are to be judged by twelve, a number of people will have decided that the evidence against you indicates a reasonably high likelihood that you will be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It will then be up to you to present evidence in your defense. If you appear to have fled the scene, you will have damaged your case significantly.

FireForged · January 4, 2017, 11:09 AM

Quote:

And maybe your explanation will be convincing, or maybe it will not

and that is a possibility no matter if I stay or not.

In my mind, my immediate safety trumps the efforts toward securing the best position in a court battle that may never happen. I would feel differently about leaving the immediate area if I were at home or in some space that I control. In public, its very different... at least to me in my own specific circumstances. Others may feel different and I don't argue against how they feel. I simply speak for myself in an effort foster fruitful debate.

let me highlight the fact that I did not say leave and disappear without further word. I said leave the danger zone to avoid the potential of continued hostilities, contact police/ems within moments and return to a location that they choose.

Ton · January 4, 2017, 11:18 AM

Stay out of bad areas of town. And by bad areas, I mean areas where it is likely that that residents will assume that any dispute between two people is due to a prejudice based on physical differences.

That said, we all know this is not possible 100% of the time.

From an LEO perspective, this is a fairly realistic scenario, and one many police officers have actually faced.

I believe that as long as you call 911 IMMEDIATELY, and stop as near as possible, any reasonable person will be able to understand why you took the action you did.

Expect to be confronted at gunpoint by police and handcuffed when they arrive. That's the way it should happen. Remember you will probably be 1 of 12 911 callers, and 11 of them are just going to say Person A shot Person B and ran, drove off etc. It will take time for all of the facts to get sorted out, ESPECIALLY if it is a chaotic crime scene.

FireForged · January 4, 2017, 11:29 AM

Quote:

I believe that as long as you call 911 IMMEDIATELY, and stop as near as possible, any reasonable person will be able to understand why you took the action you did.

a very reasoned statement.

IrishGuy824 · January 4, 2017, 12:57 PM

Here's the thing - I live in a nice area. The houses sell for between $90k and $140k. The people in my neighborhood seem to be generally good people, I haven't had any real issues with anyone that I've come across. However you never know how people (even people you know) will react when tragedy strikes.

You could defend yourself against a violent attacker in a good neighborhood and still end up in an "angry mob mentality" situation. People that knew the guy you shot are likely going to think he was a great guy and didn't deserve what happened to him. Doesn't matter the neighborhood.

**OldMarksman** · January 4, 2017, 02:06 PM

Quote:

And maybe your explanation will be convincing, or maybe it will not

and that is a possibility no matter if I stay or not.

Possibility yes, but your credibility in presenting that explanation will likely be higher if you have not introduced evidence of flight as an indication of guilt.

FireForged · January 4, 2017, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Possibility yes, but your credibility in presenting that explanation will likely be higher if you have not introduced evidence of flight as an indication of guilt

that can be seen as trying to manage a potential courtroom situation that has not yet occurred. If I have just been involved in a self defense action, my personal safety is a clear a present imperative. Everything else is a very distant 2nd or 3rd.

I disagree if the suggestion is that the narrowly defined ( almost literal) interpretation that all manner of "fleeing" or putting feet to pavement coupled with locomotion is an absolute indication of guilt that cannot be reasonably overcome via plausible and intellectually honest explanation.

Skans · January 4, 2017, 06:24 PM

Look, under your scenario presumably, you already shot and possibly killed a guy in the name of keeping yourself safe. Do you really have to ask this question? Are you (or anyone) really going to stick around for some more confrontation? How, exactly, is this going to play out?

First priority is to keep yourself safe - GET THE HECK OUT! Call 911, if you can. Go to a police station, if necessary. If it were me, I would not be hanging around waiting for the police while an angry crowd gathers and is getting agitated by my presence.

As someone who has been trapped in the middle of a full-blown race riot - you get the heck out as fast as you can! The cops aren't coming to anyone's rescue. Things flare up faster than you can snap your fingers for seemingly no reason at all. You can't control an angry mob.

Don P · January 5, 2017, 07:22 AM

Quote:

If you are to be judged by twelve, a number of people will have decided that the evidence against you indicates a reasonably high likelihood that you will be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It will then be up to you to present evidence in your defense

I, leaving out the flight part of your statement and in my opinion is you have a 50/50 shot no pun intended of things going either way.

Glenn Dee · January 5, 2017, 09:39 AM

Just another opinion....
While leaving the scene is not an indicator of guilt, it will be examined by the same standards as the shooting. Was it reasonable. A self defense shooting requires an affirmative defense. In sum and substance the burden of proof switch from the state to the person who did the shooting. Leaving the scene would require the shooter to explain the reason.

My fear is that a person is involved in a justified shooting and reasonably flee the scene for their or another's safety. Then when trying to explain the reason for fleeing get caught up by their own conscious and attempt to be politically correct. As well as being led toward politically correct responses by an interrogator.

It has been said that the truth will set you free,and for the most part this is true. Having been involved in more than a few shooting investigations , the forensic, proximity, and witness evidence will always point to the truth.....

Skans · January 5, 2017, 11:50 AM

Quote:

The advice to "Not go to those places" is good.

I've learned that there is often no telling in advance what many of "those places" are. You could be driving to a 4th of July fireworks celebration in an area that you never thought was a bad area and suddenly find yourself in an all out riot.

Remember Ales Lien, the SUV driver that hit a motorcycle driver in a gang/group (which included several police officers) that was messing with him and stopping abruptly in front of his vehicle - he was pulled out of his car and severely beaten. I think the video shows why he chose not to stick around; unfortunately they caught up with him. Too bad he wasn't armed.

TJB101 · January 5, 2017, 12:10 PM

A most excellent thread ... thanks for all the thoughts and legal info. A lot to think about should something occur.

FireForged · January 5, 2017, 12:57 PM

Quote:

I've learned that there is often no telling in advance what many of "those places" are. You could be driving to a 4th of July fireworks celebration in an area that you never thought was a bad area and suddenly find yourself in an all out riot.

exactly..

its pretty easy to avoid a den of vipers when you know where the den is. The problem is that the snakes are not always there.

ClaymoreAKM · January 5, 2017, 04:20 PM

Stay as long as you can, photograph what you can. Be sure any hostile people from the crowd knows you are armed and are not afraid to defend yourself.

The only scenario I can think of is if you are caught in something like a riot or something along those lines. When there are crowds of thousands that don't look like you, and hate people that do happen to look like you. You will most certainly have to flee in that case.

FireForged · January 5, 2017, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Stay as long as you can, photograph what you can. Be sure any hostile people from the crowd knows you are armed and are not afraid to defend yourself.

oh lawd!

Quote:

The only scenario I can think of is if you are caught in something like a riot or something along those lines. When there are crowds of thousands that don't look like you, and hate people that do happen to look like you. You will most certainly have to flee in that case

you live in a very unique bubble.

seeker_two · January 7, 2017, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireForged

oh lawd!

you live in a very unique bubble.

Just ask the people living near Ferguson, Missouri how quickly that bubble can expand.....

FireForged · January 7, 2017, 05:26 PM

I was referring to the bubble where the "only" thing you could think of was a riot.

A J · January 7, 2017, 08:44 PM

I'm not 100% sure of all the legal implications, but if I'm in that situation, I'm gonna run like hell. I'll call the police later once I'm out of danger.

January 2, 2017, 05:40 PM	#26
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Good job Frank Ettin. That's a good legal precedence to show up to people so they understand running away has it's own set of risk. Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

January 3, 2017, 05:43 AM	#27
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Thanks for the answers! The post generated enough discussion to indicate it was a good question. "Stay alive" is pretty much always the best choice. We can try to exercise the option to not be in the wrong place at the wrong time.That gives a percentage,but its not absolute. IMO,giving up tracts of our country to "Don't go there zones" is contributing to the problem. To those with the glib advice about not going to impoverished minority neighborhoods(yes,it was written carefully) Your comment re-enforces the point."Don't go where THOSE PEOPLE are.".The flip side is "Why is one of THOSE PEOPLE in my neighborhood." Tribal mobbing ,it seems,is a dark side of human nature. My question ,and this situation,can equally apply if an impoverished minority individual is alone and vulnerable in an affluent majority neighborhood.. Any of us can be driving through a place where we are unfamiliar,detoured,or a service person on a call,or just deciding to try a recommended restaurant. Lightning can strike just about anywhere. For many years I figured I did not need a concealed permit,based on simple logic."If I need a gun to go there,I should not go there" "There" can be anywhere. Its good to have some ideas ahead of time. "Self defense in a potentially hostile environment" Even cops have a hard time with that one these days. Last edited by HiBC; January 3, 2017 at 05:50 AM.

January 3, 2017, 10:29 PM	#29
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	If the situation gets 'to there', you have to decide if you want to be judged by 12 or stick around and possibly be carried by 6. Life's choices aren't always so simple and clear. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

January 4, 2017, 12:57 PM	#34
IrishGuy824 Member Join Date: December 18, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio, USA Posts: 19	Here's the thing - I live in a nice area. The houses sell for between $90k and $140k. The people in my neighborhood seem to be generally good people, I haven't had any real issues with anyone that I've come across. However you never know how people (even people you know) will react when tragedy strikes. You could defend yourself against a violent attacker in a good neighborhood and still end up in an "angry mob mentality" situation. People that knew the guy you shot are likely going to think he was a great guy and didn't deserve what happened to him. Doesn't matter the neighborhood. __________________ God gave his Arch Angels weapons because even the Almighty knows you don't fight evil with tolerance and understanding. Si vic pacem, para bellum. If you want peace, prepare for war. These are words to live by.

January 4, 2017, 06:24 PM	#37
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Look, under your scenario presumably, you already shot and possibly killed a guy in the name of keeping yourself safe. Do you really have to ask this question? Are you (or anyone) really going to stick around for some more confrontation? How, exactly, is this going to play out? First priority is to keep yourself safe - GET THE HECK OUT! Call 911, if you can. Go to a police station, if necessary. If it were me, I would not be hanging around waiting for the police while an angry crowd gathers and is getting agitated by my presence. As someone who has been trapped in the middle of a full-blown race riot - you get the heck out as fast as you can! The cops aren't coming to anyone's rescue. Things flare up faster than you can snap your fingers for seemingly no reason at all. You can't control an angry mob. Last edited by Skans; January 4, 2017 at 06:42 PM.

January 3, 2017, 10:05 PM	#28
FTG-05 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 1999 Location: TN Posts: 301	"Not always possible and just a thought to ponder, bad things happen to good people in good places (what we assume are good places) " Except that isn't what the OP posited is it? What the OP posited was "bad things happening to good people" and then "more bad things coming out of the wood work". FFS it's not rocket science. Don't want to have bad things coming out of the wood work: Stay out of the rich and vibrant areas.

January 4, 2017, 11:18 AM	#32
Ton Member Join Date: January 7, 2014 Posts: 85	Stay out of bad areas of town. And by bad areas, I mean areas where it is likely that that residents will assume that any dispute between two people is due to a prejudice based on physical differences. That said, we all know this is not possible 100% of the time. From an LEO perspective, this is a fairly realistic scenario, and one many police officers have actually faced. I believe that as long as you call 911 IMMEDIATELY, and stop as near as possible, any reasonable person will be able to understand why you took the action you did. Expect to be confronted at gunpoint by police and handcuffed when they arrive. That's the way it should happen. Remember you will probably be 1 of 12 911 callers, and 11 of them are just going to say Person A shot Person B and ran, drove off etc. It will take time for all of the facts to get sorted out, ESPECIALLY if it is a chaotic crime scene.

January 5, 2017, 09:39 AM	#39
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Just another opinion.... While leaving the scene is not an indicator of guilt, it will be examined by the same standards as the shooting. Was it reasonable. A self defense shooting requires an affirmative defense. In sum and substance the burden of proof switch from the state to the person who did the shooting. Leaving the scene would require the shooter to explain the reason. My fear is that a person is involved in a justified shooting and reasonably flee the scene for their or another's safety. Then when trying to explain the reason for fleeing get caught up by their own conscious and attempt to be politically correct. As well as being led toward politically correct responses by an interrogator. It has been said that the truth will set you free,and for the most part this is true. Having been involved in more than a few shooting investigations , the forensic, proximity, and witness evidence will always point to the truth.....

January 5, 2017, 12:10 PM	#41
TJB101 Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2017 Posts: 498	A most excellent thread ... thanks for all the thoughts and legal info. A lot to think about should something occur.

January 5, 2017, 04:20 PM	#43
ClaymoreAKM Member Join Date: January 2, 2017 Location: South of the Mason-Dixon NC Posts: 32	Stay as long as you can, photograph what you can. Be sure any hostile people from the crowd knows you are armed and are not afraid to defend yourself. The only scenario I can think of is if you are caught in something like a riot or something along those lines. When there are crowds of thousands that don't look like you, and hate people that do happen to look like you. You will most certainly have to flee in that case. __________________ Love Your Gun? Hate Your Gun? REVIEW YOUR GUN!

January 7, 2017, 05:26 PM	#46
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I was referring to the bubble where the "only" thing you could think of was a riot. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

January 7, 2017, 08:44 PM	#47
A J Member Join Date: September 20, 2016 Posts: 28	I'm not 100% sure of all the legal implications, but if I'm in that situation, I'm gonna run like hell. I'll call the police later once I'm out of danger.