250 AI savage 99

ocharry · October 17, 2017, 11:50 AM

ok guys i need some help here,,,never had a wildcat cartridge before

a really good friend of mine gave me a savage 99 250-3000 that was rebarreled and restocked ,,,just totally worked over by a gunsmith friend of his,,,and it has a ackley improved chamber in it,,,,so since they dont commercially load that and i didnt get any brass for it,,i did get dies with it,,,i need to fire form some 250 brass,,,i have never done this before,,,my buddy says i can just shoot regular 250 savage in it and it will form it to the new chamber dem.,,,,i dont know about that,,,he has never done it either and he dont reload much ,,im kinda thinking thats why i got it,,last thing he said to me when i left was,,,get some shells made up for that 99 and tell me how she shoots,,,,so that is the mission,,,,im not sure it has ever been shot since the remake ,,, it sure is purdy tho

so the question is,,,can i do it that way??? or do i need to do it some other way???

im not sure,, from what i have read, if the angle at the top of the case is all that is changed or not,,kinda looks like the case wall is straightened out some too,along with the 40* angle,,,i have been reading as much as i can find about this,,i kinda get the drift that it will blow it out since there isnt much difference in the two,,,just neck angle and maybe the side walls just a smigin,,,i think,,,but like i said i have never done this kinda thing before,,,,looks like it will be fun to play with when i get some brass reformed

so if any of you guys have done this kinda stuff before,,,i'm all ears,,,and listening

ocharry

ocharry

T. O'Heir · October 17, 2017, 12:36 PM

Geezuz, don't let any Savage collectors hear about messing with a 99.
The .250-3000 is also know as the .250 Savage. Brass is currently readily available from Hornady. On sale at Midway at $32.99 per 50. Be a special order in your local gun shop, but at least its available.
Both cartridge's drawings are here. http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm
You can buy .250 Savage ammo and just fire it in the AI with no fuss. Or load a mid-range .250 Savage load(I have data if you need it. Listed as .250-3000 Savage on Hodgdon's site) and fire that to form the AI cases.
Redding dies run $103.99 at Midway. RCBS are Special Order only and run $150.99. End of November delivery according to Midway.

**Mike Irwin** · October 18, 2017, 09:34 AM

"i need to fire form some 250 brass,,,i have never done this before,,,my buddy says i can just shoot regular 250 savage in it and it will form it to the new chamber dem.,,,,i dont know about that,,,he has never done it either and he dont reload much"

Yes. That's a perfectly valid way to make .250 AI brass from the standard brass.

F. Guffey · October 18, 2017, 10:09 AM

Quote:

so if any of you guys have done this kinda stuff before,,,i'm all ears,,,and listening

You have the dies; I would suggest you consider purchasing new 308 W cases or once fired cases. Do not purchase 308 W/NATO 7.62 cases that have been fifed in a machine gun, if you do you will require therapy.

Forget moving the shoulder back because it can not be done but the 308 W case is longer from the shoulder to the case head than the Improved 250 Savage by' about .060" and the case is shorter than the 308 W from the end of the neck to the case head by (about) .016".

I form first then fire, the difference? I use forming dies, once I fire a case it becomes a once fired case.

When forming there is a chance the case will get creases/folds and dents. Again, I use forming dies, my favorite forming dies are short forming dies. If I had a 250/3000 improved forming die it would be my favorite.

Advantage: They claim the barrel was replaced, that is good meaning the chamber does not have artifacts from the old chamber. Normally the Improved reamer will not clean up the old chamber, that means the case will not head space on the new shoulder. Again, if the chamber is new the case should head space on the shoulder of the chamber.

And that is the reason I prefer forming dies, I can adjust the forming die to off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. To some reloaders everything has head space and all gages are head space gages. Life is much simplier when the chamber has a length and the case has a length and both are measured from the shoulder, the case to the case head and the chamber to the bolt face. That is the reason I know the clearance before I start.

F. Guffey

**Unclenick** · October 18, 2017, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ocharry

my buddy says i can just shoot regular 250 savage in it and it will form it to the new chamber dem.,,,,i dont know about that,,,he has never done it either and he dont reload much

You may get longer life and can definitely get thicker shoulder walls by forming first (and also get thicker necks if your chamber is suited to them). However, it was always a primary feature of the Ackley Improved designs that factory loads of the parent cartridges could be fired in them directly to form brass.

One day I was at the range and a fellow sighting a borrowed hunting rifle came up to me with a .308 case that had the neck blown fully out to a sort of rounded shoulder. The rifle's owner had told him it was a .308, but it was actually a .30-06 and the chamber had been just loose enough to allow the .308 in. No harm done, it just wasn't very accurate.

In general, as the chamber gets bigger, the pressure created by a given charge will decrease, so firing an undersized case in a larger chamber, as long as the bullet is the right size and reaches into the neck portion of the chamber for alignment, and as long as the larger chambered gun is not designed for significantly lower pressures than the smaller round was intended to produce, you will not have anything more than an accuracy problem.

As an experiment, I made up a 100 grain bullet 50,000 psi load for the 250 Savage in QuickLOAD and then substituted it into AI version. The pressure drop was 25%.

F. Guffey · October 18, 2017, 12:32 PM

Quote:

The rifle's owner had told him it was a .308, but it was actually a .30-06 and the chamber had been just loose enough to allow the .308 in.

'just loose enough?'. When 308 W is fired in the 30/06 chamber the case head spaces on the case body/shoulder juncture because the diameter of the case is larger in diameter than the chamber by as much as .014". If you want to see something ugly chamber a 308 W round in a 25/06 chamber. I was being told the bullet must have been 3" long when it left the barrel.

I am not the gambling type but I bet them they had no clue as to the condition of the bullet when it left or how it left.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · October 18, 2017, 12:34 PM

and then there is the 243 W case.

F. Guffey

HiBC · October 18, 2017, 01:15 PM

Its probably significant that your rifle has a new barrel rather than a re-chambered barrel.At least,there was an opportunity to chamber the rifle as P.O.Ackley intended.
Generally,to convert a rifle to AI was more complex than just running a .250 AI reamer into a 250 Sav chamber. This is because the original chamber would probably be a bit "loose"in headspace to create a chamber ideal for fireforming.
Ackley's plan generally required setting the barrel back one thread or using a new barrel.
There will be less case stretch (thinning) if the case head is held tight against the bolt face when the case is fireformed.
The forward portion of the case that holds the brass positioned against the bolt face is the circle at the junction of the neck and the shoulder.
If that is snug when the bolt is in battery,fireforming will work beautifully with the equivalent of factory loads.If the smith did it right,fireforming is straight forward just shooting factory load equivalent ammo and getting a big grin on your face.
If its "looser",if the case has lengthwise float,you may get a "stretch ring" thinning of brass 3/8 or 1/2 in ahead of the case head.
There is a "bent paper clip"probe technique to check for stretch rings inside the case.
Hopefully,you had a smith who knew his stuff and did it right.

Once you fireform a nice shoulder,all you need do is not set it back excessively when you resize.

If I had your rifle,and if it was chambered too deep to be "easy" for fireforming,... If the smith "missed the mark"The process Mr Guffey describes might have merit...with some cautions.
I don't have time to do all this right now,but I'd compare the cartridge drawings for .250 Savage,300 Savage,and 308 Win.. The 308 and 300 savage are really quite similar. Shortening the .308 neck and running it through a 300 Savage die will get you useful .300 Savage brass.
I've not verified the geometric details,but I would assume .300 Savage would neck down to .250 Savage. You MIGHT get away with forming that step with your 250 AI sizing die,you should get ab slight,.025 wide "ring" ...a little shoulder,from the former 30 cal neck. You might get some wrinkles. That will be quite robust for fireforming.
Brass does not disappear when it is formed down,so beware your case necks may thicken.
This can be a real problem if the neck to chamber fit is tight. Neck turning or reaming may be necessary.
You might look at the dimensions of .260 Rem brass.You may not get as much of a step,but you will only size the neck down from .264 to .257. Piece of cake,providing the .260 shoulder dims are compatible.7-08 might be another possibility. IMO,less forming is better.

Hopefully,your smith paid attention to the rotary magazine and all is well.

Also,it will be fortunate if the smith installed a 10 in twist barrel. That would shoot 115 gr bullets. The original twist maxed out at about 100 gr bullets because the twist was too slow to stabilize heavier bullets.

ocharry · October 18, 2017, 01:21 PM

thanks guys,,,i think i want to fire form virgin brass in this chamber,,,just so when i load it, it fits,,lol,,just because i dont really know for sure what i have,,,i know what i was told but,,,my friend has had this rifle in his safe for at least 15 years,,he is 70 and had bladder cancer,,he had custom RCBS dies made and that was the end of it,,,and like most of us as we age the memory gets kinda foggy sometimes,,,i take notes all the time when i am doing things like this,,,and as i get older sometimes that doesnt work as good as it should,,,there is no info on the barrel,,unless it under the forearm,,i havent looked there ,,yet,,lol,,i have checked around and midway has 250 remington loaded shells,,,and hornady brass and bullets,,,,,,graffs has hornady brass and some 25 cal. bullets,,,and they are closer than midway,,,im about 45 min from midway and 30 min from graffs,,,,i kinda think i want to use 100+ grain bullets but before i decide i want to check the twist on the barrel,,, what i have read is the 14 twist was common,,,but there was also 10-12-16 twist rates available and i dont know what it is so i am going slow here to get my ducks in a row

mr. guffey,,,if i understand correctly,, the case head spaces on the neck angle like most rimless cases,,,so if i expand the neck and then neck size down to the leading edge of the shoulder,,so the action just closes,, i can get a close fit that way when i fire form and not get a false shoulder,,,the head space will stay tight when i fire the case,,ie. once fired brass,,,i think i would rather have the case say 250 on the head verses 308,,lol,,but i kinda think i have a handle on what direction i am going

also i just read the last post,,,a friend of mine once had 2, 700 rem. one was 270 ,,1 was 308,,,some how one day at the range he got a 308 into the 270,,,yep it was ugly,,,i dont think that bullet came out,,,and i dont think the gun blew up,,,vented out the ports,,,he was very lucky,,,gun was junk but he was ok,,,when he told me what happened i couldnt believe it,,,lucky man is all i can say

but this rifle is way too purdy for any of that stuff,,,slow and steady with this one,,,i want to take it back to my good friend so he can shoot it with me,,,,that will be after the shake down of course

thx again gentlemen ,,,any other tips will be greatly appreciated

ocharry

ocharry · October 18, 2017, 01:36 PM

HiBC,,,im not sure what twist just yet,,,but yeah i hope he put a 10 twist on her too,,,my ol pard did tell me that the magazine held 1 less shell than factory,,because it had to be modified to feed the new cartridge,,,if i understand it correctly the new chamber straightened the case wall a degree or so,,,so not only was it a new shoulder,,40*,, but a slightly straighter case wall also,,,thus more case capacity and more velocity

i have P O Ackley books and they do have loading data in them but i have read the P O took things to the wall,,,i dont want to go there,,,i have a new loading manual in the mail with new powders and load data for this cartridge,,,so it is coming together,,,there just dont seem to be much info out there about this cartridge

ocharry

HiBC · October 18, 2017, 02:01 PM

Quote:

i have P O Ackley books and they do have loading data in them but i have read the P O took things to the wall,,,i dont want to go there,,,i have a new loading manual in the mail with new powders and load data for this cartridge,,,so it is coming together,,,there just dont seem to be much info out there about this cartridge

I also have the Ackley books. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you DO NOT use loading datafrom those books
It goes way beyond Mr Ackley being a little frisky with his loads.
The powders of today,though they may have the same name,such as H4895,they are NOT the same powder. I have seen the results of an Old Timer faithfully replicating the loads he made for his Old Elk Hunting Buddy.That rifle and ammo was being passed down to a son.
The son came to me. Said the rifle kicked like a mule! Wanted to know why the primers were falling out and the pockets were open and black.
Per the Ackley book,it was a perfectly normal H4895 load....FOR the POWDER of THE TIME. But not modern powder.

Realize the 260 rem,the 7-08 rem,and the .308 are all the same family.

Necking the 308 down offers a more pronounced step for positive "headspacing" * for fireforming . But consider,if the smith did the job right,none of that is necessary.
A lot of this case forming up and down and workaround forming has to do with an original sin of hack,sloppy,incompetent gunsmithing. Or,old worn out rifles with excessive headspace.Some people disdain the use of headspace gauges.

If the rifle was set up properly ,as P.O. Ackley intended,your perfectly wonderful way to fireform ammo is with 250 Savage factory loads or with midrange virgin brass handloads. Have fun practicing! They shoot very well.

I suggest you study the cartridge drawings and understand the 260,7-08 ,and 308 dims vs the .250 Savage. You will see your own possibilities.

I have a Rem model 81 in .300 Savage. Instead of pursuing pricey and not-so-common 300 Savage virgin brass,I relax knowing I have a power case trimmer and 308 brass is easy.

When you form 308 brass down to .257,the necks may thicken.Your chamber neck is dimensioned to provide just the right clearance to expand and release the bullet.A thicker neck may not allow this release. Pressure goes up.

Neck turning or reaming is a workaround. For myself,I don't want to have to do all that.

If I can trim and size 260 Rem brass down only .007,I doubt there is any concern. A 7-08 sizes down .027. Virgin brass ,lubed,should probably do that in one step without losing many. Sizing 308 down to .257 in one pass? Thats .051. I'd expect brass loss to wrinkles. And I'd expect thick necks.

Best? Score Hornady 250 Savage brass,load it,and fireform it.

* I know my use of the word "headspace" when applied to a cartridge brass is technically incorrect. Ammunition does not have headspace .
We just don't have another word that conveys the concept as well.It was convenient to use the word "headspace". If you understood,it was a successful communication.
However,the use of the word draws critics like green flies on a dog dropping.

ocharry · October 18, 2017, 02:44 PM

yes i understood the head space,,,,my thought was to open the neck up,,,i dont have a 264 expander ,,but i do have a 7mm expander ball,,,,my thought was to run the 7,,,.284 ball into the neck,,,and then use my AI sizing die to neck size the brass until the bolt just closes,,should be about .0135 on a side,, ring at the neck and shoulder,,,i think if i am paying attention that should be plenty of shoulder to feel for the stop or,,,"head space",that should give me a good shoulder to form to and keep the head space as close to zero as i can,,,kinda the same thing you guys are saying,,,just using 250 brass,,,,that way it should keep the proper neck dimensions,,,lol,,,i think,,,,oh i have a list for graffs,,lol,,,,and i might buy a box of loaded stuff ,,,just to see if all the effort was worth it

am i seeing this clearly,,,i think i got a pretty good handle on this so far,,,if im wrong,,,jump in

ocharry

HiBC · October 18, 2017, 03:25 PM

From your description,you have a good understanding of what is going on.

It has been my experience that necking up using a sizing die expander ball gives mediocre results.

If you take a piece of taffy or gum and stretch it,you will not get uniform stretch and thinning. Some portions will stretch easier and thin more.
The same happens with the brass. Generally,one portion of the neck stretches more easily. Then the expander spindle deflects to the path of least resistance,and the shoulder concentricity is lost.

It gets done that way. It does not meet my standards.

If you have .250 Savage brass,I suggest you don't solve the problem till you know it exists. Just load 20 rds ,straight forward with no alteration and try them.Easy-Peezy.

Then either use a paper clip as a probe,or hacksaw a few cases lengthwise.
If you do not have a stretch ring,Why do all that unnecessary stuff?

Pathfinder45 · October 18, 2017, 03:26 PM

What about using 6.5 Creedmoor brass resized to 250 Ackley? Wouldn't that be the closest, simplest choice? I have noticed that the Creedmoor is becoming a lot more available than I would have thought.

HiBC · October 18, 2017, 03:31 PM

I don't know,have not studied the drawings. How are the lengths,head to shoulder detail and LOA?

F. Guffey · October 18, 2017, 05:36 PM

Quote:

mr. guffey,,,if i understand correctly,, the case head spaces on the neck angle like most rimless cases,,,so if i expand the neck and then neck size down to the leading edge of the shoulder,,so the action just closes,, i can get a close fit that way when i fire form and not get a false shoulder,,,the head space will stay tight when i fire the case,,ie. once fired brass,,,i think i would rather have the case say 250 on the head verses 308,,lol,,but i kinda think i have a handle on what direction i am going

In the perfect world the neck on the parent case is longer than the neck on the improved chamber. When that happens part of the shoulder is sized when chambered, the rest of the shoulder is formed when fired with the case body.

I know, reloaders can not figure out what happens to the shoulder when the trigger is pulled. Try to think of it as one shoulder diapering and a new one is formed. And that is the reason the case shortens from the end of the neck to the case head, the case shortens when the neck is pulled back when forming.

F. Guffey

ocharry · October 18, 2017, 07:38 PM

Well I checked the barrel twist....looks to be a 10 twist..so that is a good thing

So.....can I load 250 savage with these AI dies???? I dont have 250 savage dies....

Also. Where will the stretch ring be??? Down in the body or up in the shoulder...that is where I would think...that's where the case is moving the most..in the neck shoulder area

I agree that will be the simplest way to get where I want to be...just fire a standard round in the AI chamber

I talked to my buddy this evening to glean as much info as I could ...BUT...he didn't have answers for the questions I had....I did learn that it does have a premium barrel and it has more than likely only been fired less than 50 times since build...it has killed 2 prong horn
And there is a chance that Ackely put the barrel on the action...I know
Mr. Ackely died in 89...he was 86.....I was also trying to get a timeline for the build....and my buddy tossed that out...I think he said it was used for the prong horn in the late 70s early 80s...so if that is true...Mr. Ackley could have put the action together

So I'm still learning here

Ocharry

**Unclenick** · October 18, 2017, 08:22 PM

The .308 in my example, if it was average, would probably be around -0.004" in diameter relative to the cartridge drawing dimensions, which are maximums. A maximum case would be a jam fit in a minimum .30-06 chamber before the bolt closed. My expectation is the the case headspaced its rim against the extractor hook. I know Hatcher reported an experiment in which he cut a .30-06 chamber 0.050" forward of normal in order to see the effects, by which time the extractor hook would likely stop the case shoulder from meeting the chamber shoulder and become the stop that held the case for firing pin impact.

Scorch · October 18, 2017, 09:04 PM

Quote:

I would suggest you consider purchasing new 308 W cases or once fired cases

Oh, nooooo! Trim, form, neck turn, fire form, trim? No way!

Easiest case workup in the world. Buy 22-250 brass. Run the cases through the 250 AI die to expand the neck, then load. Fire form. Reload. Repeat as necessary.

HiBC · October 18, 2017, 09:30 PM

Mr Scorch.I'd almost agree if Hornady was not making 250 Savage brass with decent availability. Its about 59 cents,I think.
Current Midway:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/27...vage-box-of-50

OP,on stretch rings,the cartoon I believe in goes like this:
The shoulder/headspacing feature is the anvil for the firing pin strike.The brass will likely be postioned forward.

Pressure builds,the thinner forward brass obturates and tightly grips the chamber walls.

Back about 1/2 in ahead of the case head, the grip on the chamber walls is compromised by the chamber mouth,thicker brass,etc.

The case head gets blown back to the bolt face.The stretch will be localized in a ring around the inside of the brass not far from the mouth of the chamber...a little forward.
Most reloading manuals have pix,describe them,and detail the "paperclip trick"

If you can buy virgin Hornady brass,I would short stroke it through your 250AI sizing die.All I would be after is running the expander ball through the neck.

Chamfer,prime . Don't even need dies for that. Charge your cases with powder...a start to midrange load.Brass expansion will reduce pressure.

Don't load all your brass. Do a "pilot run" with 10 or 20.
If you are successful,write it all down..and go on.

One more thing,use a relatively long bullet,like a 115,117,or 120.
I'd stay away from a very short cylindrical diameter ,such as a 100 gr boat tail.

I have seen weird collapsed cases when gas finds a path around a short bullet,to get pressure between the chamber and the outside of the brass. I looked like massive lube dents,sort of.

F. Guffey · October 19, 2017, 08:35 AM

Quote:

The .308 in my example, if it was average, would probably be around -0.004" in diameter relative to the cartridge drawing dimensions, which are maximums. A maximum case would be a jam fit in a minimum .30-06 chamber before the bolt closed. My expectation is the the case headspaced its rim against the extractor hook. I know Hatcher reported an experiment in which he cut a .30-06 chamber 0.050" forward of normal in order to see the effects, by which time the extractor hook would likely stop the case shoulder from meeting the chamber shoulder and become the stop that held the case for firing pin impact.

Average: That gets into the part of life that is not fair, I measure. I have never found a 308 W case that was less than .012" larger than the 30/06 chamber at the same point when measured from the case head.

Ackley said: When I hear reloaders claim "Hatcher said" I think they are repeating stories they have heard from other reloaders that heard the same story. I have alienated more than a few reoladers by simply disagreeing with what they thought they heard.

Hatcher had 'SITUATION 1' SITUTION 2' and 'SITUATION 3', I suggested to 03 experts someone handed Hatcher the wrong rifle or not all 03s were made alike. I also suggested it was never necessary to check head space on the 03 with a head space gage. I check clearance on the 03 with a feeler gage, the 03 was made without Springfield having never seen the 98 Mauser. The 98 has a third safety lug, the Springfield 03 has a third lug, I am told that is a coincidence

Point? I use the third lug when measuring clearance between the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head and chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

Back to Hatcher's wildcat, he used the M1917 with the large Mauser type claw. If I did not alienate the reloaders in the beginning I managed to alienate the rest when I suggested a reloader could determine if the case could jump the extractor. The third lug on the M1917 was the root on the bolt handle, similar to the small ring Chilean Mauser; the Chilean small ring Mauser was the only small ring Mauser with the safety feature.

I have fired 8MM57 ammo in an 8MM/06 chamber

When 8MM57 ammo is fired in an 8MM/06 chamber there is .127" clearance, that is .077" more clearance that the story of Hatcher. After firing the 8MM57 ammo in the long chamber I ejected cases with just a hint of a neck, and then there was the miricle

the shoulder on the 8mm57 case did not move

it was erased and became part of the case body and the new shoulder formed when fired meaning most of the neck disappeared and became part of the shoulder. And I always ask: Is it stretch and or flow or both?

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · October 19, 2017, 08:56 AM

I am a case former, I form first and then fire, the cases I fired and then eject became once fired cases when I pulled the trigger.

I have no problem forming 30/06 cases to 308W, for me it is a convenient way to off set the length of the chamber. And then there is that thing as in what to do with thick necks. When going from 30/06 to 6MM Remington the hole in the neck (where the bullet goes) just about disappears, for case formers that is not a problem, I have reamer dies, my favorite reamer die is the 243 W reamer die. I do not believe many reloaders are going to purchased a reamer die because the die and reamer are expensive, $200.00.

Back many years ago Lee made Target Model die sets, the die set came complete with a reamer and neck sizing die without a sizing die.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · October 19, 2017, 09:06 AM

A builder of bench type rifles called about a complaint he received from one of his new owners. He said the new owner complained about loose necks on a very accurate 308 W bull barrel build.

In all of his years of building he has never had a complaint, so, I suggested he sold one of his rifles to an Internet reloader that had to have a tight neck.

I made a shop call with a box of dies, we dug through a few thousand cases and settled on 30/06 LC National Match because he had thousands of them. I formed the 30/06 cases to 308 W and did nothing to the necks, When finished the clearance between the neck and chamber was .002". I cautioned him not to change cases and or lots.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · October 19, 2017, 09:27 AM

Quote:

,if i understand correctly,, the case head spaces on the neck angle like most rimless cases,,,so if i expand the neck and then neck size down to the leading edge of the shoulder,,so the action just closes,, i can get a close fit that way when i fire form and not get a false shoulder,,,the head space will stay tight when i fire the case,,ie. once fired brass,,,i think i would rather have the case say 250 on the head verses 308,,lol,,but i kinda think i have a handle on what direction i am going

It is very unlikely I would use commercial 30/06 or 308 W cases. My military cases have an arsenal stamp and year on the case head, that works until I have a 30/06 chamber that could be considered trashy. I have one chamber that is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a minimum length/full length sized case. For the gage oriented reloader that would be .011" longer than a go-gage chamber. When forming cases fr that chamber I use 280 Remington cases, the 280 Remington case is .051" longer than the 30/06 case from the shoulder to the case head, I could ask "How can I miss?". I use a feeler gage to set up the 30/06 die.

And then there is that part where the number one answer is 'false shoulder'.
I started by using the false shoulder when forming cases for the 30 Gibbs, problem when necking up etc., and then forming and firing the case shortened .045", I understands that means nothing to a reloader but the neck on the 30 Gibbs is .127" long. Back to the part where I am the fan of bullet hold, I want all the bullet hold I can get, in my opinion .127" is short for a 308" diameter bullet so I start with longer cases and to answer the other question about the head stamp; there is no way a reloader can chamber a 30 Gibbs in a 30/06 chamber.

Head stamps; R-P made cylinder brass for wildcatters, the R-P case was a straight wall case that was 2.650" long with a 35 Whelen head stamp.

F. Guffey

ocharry · October 19, 2017, 09:58 AM

HiBC,,,so just run the expander ball into the neck?? no neck sizing?? just the ball to make sure the size is right and the neck is round,,,i think that is what you are saying,,does new brass have a tight mouth or neck?? the expander ball will move the diameter?? just like normal

i looked at graffs web sight,,they have a flat base 120gr bullet,,,that is the one i will buy,,,if i understand what we are doing here,,,,it is to keep the bullet in the case neck long enough for the shoulder to form,,,the bullet will help support the neck and keep it straight while the forming is going on,,,and this is all happening in a blink....the 120 flat base has a straight cylinder wall unlike the boat tail bullets that taper back,,,,so the straight wall acts like an arbor,,,the longer the better,,,,in the barrel and in the neck at the same time during forming??

Mr. Guffey,,,i guess what i should have said was ,,, when i neck size the expanded neck down to size and leave a ring,,,that will be a false shoulder to fire form the case to,,,the "false shoulder" is just a stop so you know there is no room left and when fired the case has no where to go but expand and fit the new chamber

sorry for all the questions,,,but for me i have to know and understand what is going on,,,i dont like running around half cocked,,,the ,,"oh i just stuck it in there and poof it happened" dont work for me,,,lol,,,to analytical i guess,,but i dont like doing things twice,,,and in this case there might not be a second chance,,,i do love a challenge,,,this is one for me,,,i will be the first in line tell you i dont know what i am doing ,,BUT with all the help you guys are offering i think i can get this done,,,i think i understand what we are "shooting" for,,,and how i am going to get there

ocharry

October 17, 2017, 11:50 AM	#1
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 686	250 AI savage 99 ok guys i need some help here,,,never had a wildcat cartridge before a really good friend of mine gave me a savage 99 250-3000 that was rebarreled and restocked ,,,just totally worked over by a gunsmith friend of his,,,and it has a ackley improved chamber in it,,,,so since they dont commercially load that and i didnt get any brass for it,,i did get dies with it,,,i need to fire form some 250 brass,,,i have never done this before,,,my buddy says i can just shoot regular 250 savage in it and it will form it to the new chamber dem.,,,,i dont know about that,,,he has never done it either and he dont reload much ,,im kinda thinking thats why i got it,,last thing he said to me when i left was,,,get some shells made up for that 99 and tell me how she shoots,,,,so that is the mission,,,,im not sure it has ever been shot since the remake ,,, it sure is purdy tho so the question is,,,can i do it that way??? or do i need to do it some other way??? im not sure,, from what i have read, if the angle at the top of the case is all that is changed or not,,kinda looks like the case wall is straightened out some too,along with the 40* angle,,,i have been reading as much as i can find about this,,i kinda get the drift that it will blow it out since there isnt much difference in the two,,,just neck angle and maybe the side walls just a smigin,,,i think,,,but like i said i have never done this kinda thing before,,,,looks like it will be fun to play with when i get some brass reformed so if any of you guys have done this kinda stuff before,,,i'm all ears,,,and listening ocharry ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

October 17, 2017, 12:36 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Geezuz, don't let any Savage collectors hear about messing with a 99. The .250-3000 is also know as the .250 Savage. Brass is currently readily available from Hornady. On sale at Midway at $32.99 per 50. Be a special order in your local gun shop, but at least its available. Both cartridge's drawings are here. http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm You can buy .250 Savage ammo and just fire it in the AI with no fuss. Or load a mid-range .250 Savage load(I have data if you need it. Listed as .250-3000 Savage on Hodgdon's site) and fire that to form the AI cases. Redding dies run $103.99 at Midway. RCBS are Special Order only and run $150.99. End of November delivery according to Midway. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 18, 2017, 09:34 AM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	"i need to fire form some 250 brass,,,i have never done this before,,,my buddy says i can just shoot regular 250 savage in it and it will form it to the new chamber dem.,,,,i dont know about that,,,he has never done it either and he dont reload much" Yes. That's a perfectly valid way to make .250 AI brass from the standard brass. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 18, 2017, 01:15 PM	#8
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Its probably significant that your rifle has a new barrel rather than a re-chambered barrel.At least,there was an opportunity to chamber the rifle as P.O.Ackley intended. Generally,to convert a rifle to AI was more complex than just running a .250 AI reamer into a 250 Sav chamber. This is because the original chamber would probably be a bit "loose"in headspace to create a chamber ideal for fireforming. Ackley's plan generally required setting the barrel back one thread or using a new barrel. There will be less case stretch (thinning) if the case head is held tight against the bolt face when the case is fireformed. The forward portion of the case that holds the brass positioned against the bolt face is the circle at the junction of the neck and the shoulder. If that is snug when the bolt is in battery,fireforming will work beautifully with the equivalent of factory loads.If the smith did it right,fireforming is straight forward just shooting factory load equivalent ammo and getting a big grin on your face. If its "looser",if the case has lengthwise float,you may get a "stretch ring" thinning of brass 3/8 or 1/2 in ahead of the case head. There is a "bent paper clip"probe technique to check for stretch rings inside the case. Hopefully,you had a smith who knew his stuff and did it right. Once you fireform a nice shoulder,all you need do is not set it back excessively when you resize. If I had your rifle,and if it was chambered too deep to be "easy" for fireforming,... If the smith "missed the mark"The process Mr Guffey describes might have merit...with some cautions. I don't have time to do all this right now,but I'd compare the cartridge drawings for .250 Savage,300 Savage,and 308 Win.. The 308 and 300 savage are really quite similar. Shortening the .308 neck and running it through a 300 Savage die will get you useful .300 Savage brass. I've not verified the geometric details,but I would assume .300 Savage would neck down to .250 Savage. You MIGHT get away with forming that step with your 250 AI sizing die,you should get ab slight,.025 wide "ring" ...a little shoulder,from the former 30 cal neck. You might get some wrinkles. That will be quite robust for fireforming. Brass does not disappear when it is formed down,so beware your case necks may thicken. This can be a real problem if the neck to chamber fit is tight. Neck turning or reaming may be necessary. You might look at the dimensions of .260 Rem brass.You may not get as much of a step,but you will only size the neck down from .264 to .257. Piece of cake,providing the .260 shoulder dims are compatible.7-08 might be another possibility. IMO,less forming is better. Hopefully,your smith paid attention to the rotary magazine and all is well. Also,it will be fortunate if the smith installed a 10 in twist barrel. That would shoot 115 gr bullets. The original twist maxed out at about 100 gr bullets because the twist was too slow to stabilize heavier bullets. Last edited by HiBC; October 18, 2017 at 02:33 PM.

October 18, 2017, 01:21 PM	#9
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 686	thanks guys,,,i think i want to fire form virgin brass in this chamber,,,just so when i load it, it fits,,lol,,just because i dont really know for sure what i have,,,i know what i was told but,,,my friend has had this rifle in his safe for at least 15 years,,he is 70 and had bladder cancer,,he had custom RCBS dies made and that was the end of it,,,and like most of us as we age the memory gets kinda foggy sometimes,,,i take notes all the time when i am doing things like this,,,and as i get older sometimes that doesnt work as good as it should,,,there is no info on the barrel,,unless it under the forearm,,i havent looked there ,,yet,,lol,,i have checked around and midway has 250 remington loaded shells,,,and hornady brass and bullets,,,,,,graffs has hornady brass and some 25 cal. bullets,,,and they are closer than midway,,,im about 45 min from midway and 30 min from graffs,,,,i kinda think i want to use 100+ grain bullets but before i decide i want to check the twist on the barrel,,, what i have read is the 14 twist was common,,,but there was also 10-12-16 twist rates available and i dont know what it is so i am going slow here to get my ducks in a row mr. guffey,,,if i understand correctly,, the case head spaces on the neck angle like most rimless cases,,,so if i expand the neck and then neck size down to the leading edge of the shoulder,,so the action just closes,, i can get a close fit that way when i fire form and not get a false shoulder,,,the head space will stay tight when i fire the case,,ie. once fired brass,,,i think i would rather have the case say 250 on the head verses 308,,lol,,but i kinda think i have a handle on what direction i am going also i just read the last post,,,a friend of mine once had 2, 700 rem. one was 270 ,,1 was 308,,,some how one day at the range he got a 308 into the 270,,,yep it was ugly,,,i dont think that bullet came out,,,and i dont think the gun blew up,,,vented out the ports,,,he was very lucky,,,gun was junk but he was ok,,,when he told me what happened i couldnt believe it,,,lucky man is all i can say but this rifle is way too purdy for any of that stuff,,,slow and steady with this one,,,i want to take it back to my good friend so he can shoot it with me,,,,that will be after the shake down of course thx again gentlemen ,,,any other tips will be greatly appreciated ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

October 18, 2017, 12:34 PM	#7
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	and then there is the 243 W case. F. Guffey

October 18, 2017, 01:36 PM	#10
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 686	HiBC,,,im not sure what twist just yet,,,but yeah i hope he put a 10 twist on her too,,,my ol pard did tell me that the magazine held 1 less shell than factory,,because it had to be modified to feed the new cartridge,,,if i understand it correctly the new chamber straightened the case wall a degree or so,,,so not only was it a new shoulder,,40,, but a slightly straighter case wall also,,,thus more case capacity and more velocity i have P O Ackley books and they do have loading data in them but i have read the P O took things to the wall,,,i dont want to go there,,,i have a new loading manual in the mail with new powders and load data for this cartridge,,,so it is coming together,,,there just dont seem to be much info out there about this cartridge ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Last edited by ocharry; October 18, 2017 at 01:57 PM.*

October 18, 2017, 02:44 PM	#12
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 686	yes i understood the head space,,,,my thought was to open the neck up,,,i dont have a 264 expander ,,but i do have a 7mm expander ball,,,,my thought was to run the 7,,,.284 ball into the neck,,,and then use my AI sizing die to neck size the brass until the bolt just closes,,should be about .0135 on a side,, ring at the neck and shoulder,,,i think if i am paying attention that should be plenty of shoulder to feel for the stop or,,,"head space",that should give me a good shoulder to form to and keep the head space as close to zero as i can,,,kinda the same thing you guys are saying,,,just using 250 brass,,,,that way it should keep the proper neck dimensions,,,lol,,,i think,,,,oh i have a list for graffs,,lol,,,,and i might buy a box of loaded stuff ,,,just to see if all the effort was worth it am i seeing this clearly,,,i think i got a pretty good handle on this so far,,,if im wrong,,,jump in ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

October 18, 2017, 03:25 PM	#13
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	From your description,you have a good understanding of what is going on. It has been my experience that necking up using a sizing die expander ball gives mediocre results. If you take a piece of taffy or gum and stretch it,you will not get uniform stretch and thinning. Some portions will stretch easier and thin more. The same happens with the brass. Generally,one portion of the neck stretches more easily. Then the expander spindle deflects to the path of least resistance,and the shoulder concentricity is lost. It gets done that way. It does not meet my standards. If you have .250 Savage brass,I suggest you don't solve the problem till you know it exists. Just load 20 rds ,straight forward with no alteration and try them.Easy-Peezy. Then either use a paper clip as a probe,or hacksaw a few cases lengthwise. If you do not have a stretch ring,Why do all that unnecessary stuff?

October 18, 2017, 03:26 PM	#14
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	What about using 6.5 Creedmoor brass resized to 250 Ackley? Wouldn't that be the closest, simplest choice? I have noticed that the Creedmoor is becoming a lot more available than I would have thought.

October 18, 2017, 03:31 PM	#15
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I don't know,have not studied the drawings. How are the lengths,head to shoulder detail and LOA?

October 18, 2017, 07:38 PM	#17
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 686	Well I checked the barrel twist....looks to be a 10 twist..so that is a good thing So.....can I load 250 savage with these AI dies???? I dont have 250 savage dies.... Also. Where will the stretch ring be??? Down in the body or up in the shoulder...that is where I would think...that's where the case is moving the most..in the neck shoulder area I agree that will be the simplest way to get where I want to be...just fire a standard round in the AI chamber I talked to my buddy this evening to glean as much info as I could ...BUT...he didn't have answers for the questions I had....I did learn that it does have a premium barrel and it has more than likely only been fired less than 50 times since build...it has killed 2 prong horn And there is a chance that Ackely put the barrel on the action...I know Mr. Ackely died in 89...he was 86.....I was also trying to get a timeline for the build....and my buddy tossed that out...I think he said it was used for the prong horn in the late 70s early 80s...so if that is true...Mr. Ackley could have put the action together So I'm still learning here Ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC

October 18, 2017, 08:22 PM	#18
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	The .308 in my example, if it was average, would probably be around -0.004" in diameter relative to the cartridge drawing dimensions, which are maximums. A maximum case would be a jam fit in a minimum .30-06 chamber before the bolt closed. My expectation is the the case headspaced its rim against the extractor hook. I know Hatcher reported an experiment in which he cut a .30-06 chamber 0.050" forward of normal in order to see the effects, by which time the extractor hook would likely stop the case shoulder from meeting the chamber shoulder and become the stop that held the case for firing pin impact. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 18, 2017, 09:30 PM	#20
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Mr Scorch.I'd almost agree if Hornady was not making 250 Savage brass with decent availability. Its about 59 cents,I think. Current Midway: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/27...vage-box-of-50 OP,on stretch rings,the cartoon I believe in goes like this: The shoulder/headspacing feature is the anvil for the firing pin strike.The brass will likely be postioned forward. Pressure builds,the thinner forward brass obturates and tightly grips the chamber walls. Back about 1/2 in ahead of the case head, the grip on the chamber walls is compromised by the chamber mouth,thicker brass,etc. The case head gets blown back to the bolt face.The stretch will be localized in a ring around the inside of the brass not far from the mouth of the chamber...a little forward. Most reloading manuals have pix,describe them,and detail the "paperclip trick" If you can buy virgin Hornady brass,I would short stroke it through your 250AI sizing die.All I would be after is running the expander ball through the neck. Chamfer,prime . Don't even need dies for that. Charge your cases with powder...a start to midrange load.Brass expansion will reduce pressure. Don't load all your brass. Do a "pilot run" with 10 or 20. If you are successful,write it all down..and go on. One more thing,use a relatively long bullet,like a 115,117,or 120. I'd stay away from a very short cylindrical diameter ,such as a 100 gr boat tail. I have seen weird collapsed cases when gas finds a path around a short bullet,to get pressure between the chamber and the outside of the brass. I looked like massive lube dents,sort of. Last edited by HiBC; October 18, 2017 at 09:54 PM.

October 19, 2017, 08:56 AM	#22
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I am a case former, I form first and then fire, the cases I fired and then eject became once fired cases when I pulled the trigger. I have no problem forming 30/06 cases to 308W, for me it is a convenient way to off set the length of the chamber. And then there is that thing as in what to do with thick necks. When going from 30/06 to 6MM Remington the hole in the neck (where the bullet goes) just about disappears, for case formers that is not a problem, I have reamer dies, my favorite reamer die is the 243 W reamer die. I do not believe many reloaders are going to purchased a reamer die because the die and reamer are expensive, $200.00. Back many years ago Lee made Target Model die sets, the die set came complete with a reamer and neck sizing die without a sizing die. F. Guffey

October 19, 2017, 09:06 AM	#23
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	A builder of bench type rifles called about a complaint he received from one of his new owners. He said the new owner complained about loose necks on a very accurate 308 W bull barrel build. In all of his years of building he has never had a complaint, so, I suggested he sold one of his rifles to an Internet reloader that had to have a tight neck. I made a shop call with a box of dies, we dug through a few thousand cases and settled on 30/06 LC National Match because he had thousands of them. I formed the 30/06 cases to 308 W and did nothing to the necks, When finished the clearance between the neck and chamber was .002". I cautioned him not to change cases and or lots. F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; October 19, 2017 at 09:07 AM. Reason: add o

October 19, 2017, 09:58 AM	#25
ocharry Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2006 Posts: 686	HiBC,,,so just run the expander ball into the neck?? no neck sizing?? just the ball to make sure the size is right and the neck is round,,,i think that is what you are saying,,does new brass have a tight mouth or neck?? the expander ball will move the diameter?? just like normal i looked at graffs web sight,,they have a flat base 120gr bullet,,,that is the one i will buy,,,if i understand what we are doing here,,,,it is to keep the bullet in the case neck long enough for the shoulder to form,,,the bullet will help support the neck and keep it straight while the forming is going on,,,and this is all happening in a blink....the 120 flat base has a straight cylinder wall unlike the boat tail bullets that taper back,,,,so the straight wall acts like an arbor,,,the longer the better,,,,in the barrel and in the neck at the same time during forming?? Mr. Guffey,,,i guess what i should have said was ,,, when i neck size the expanded neck down to size and leave a ring,,,that will be a false shoulder to fire form the case to,,,the "false shoulder" is just a stop so you know there is no room left and when fired the case has no where to go but expand and fit the new chamber sorry for all the questions,,,but for me i have to know and understand what is going on,,,i dont like running around half cocked,,,the ,,"oh i just stuck it in there and poof it happened" dont work for me,,,lol,,,to analytical i guess,,but i dont like doing things twice,,,and in this case there might not be a second chance,,,i do love a challenge,,,this is one for me,,,i will be the first in line tell you i dont know what i am doing ,,BUT with all the help you guys are offering i think i can get this done,,,i think i understand what we are "shooting" for,,,and how i am going to get there ocharry __________________ The felon does not fear the police, and he fears neither judge nor jury. Therefore what he must be taught to fear is his victim." - Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper, USMC Last edited by ocharry; October 19, 2017 at 10:15 AM.