What is this Airman carrying? - Page 2

DPris · August 15, 2016, 01:01 PM

Individuality in SAC Elite was NOT encouraged.

Not knocking those guys, but they were a showroom unit & had to be on top of their game constantly.

They just played a different game than us ground-sloggers did.

The LE guys were nowhere near as "special" as Elite, but were still more on display to the public at gates & more recognizable as "cops" in the visible areas of the base.

Mostly, if you saw us SPs anywhere but the chow hall, you were getting too near places you shouldn't be, without a restricted area card.

We didn't have to look pretty, we were mostly just there as a physical presence with a gun to keep unauthorized people out of places that unauthorized people weren't supposed to be in, with a side order (in actual reality) of being the first ones shot if anybody did want to get at an asset.

And, re the queen, she certainly never provided an honor guard reception when I first arrived in HER country!

Denis

**Mike Irwin** · August 15, 2016, 01:12 PM

"The stags were standard issue for SAC Elite guards"

Yes, my post wasn't specific enough.

It was an image thing. I THINK, but am not sure, that the Elite guard also had a special beret, didn't they?

DPris · August 15, 2016, 01:56 PM

SAC Elite INVENTED the USAF blue beanie.
Which was eventually forced on the rest of us later on.

Hated that worthless thing.
Still actually have mine.
Denis

DPris · August 15, 2016, 02:14 PM

The only thing different about the Elite beanie & ours would have been the crest.

The beanie was spreading when I came back to the US in late 75.
My SP squadron in Michigan had just adopted it shortly before I got there.
They didn't have one in my size in Supply, so I was allowed to stick to the old ballcap while they ordered one all the way from Canada.

Once issued, I wore mine with the front stiffener folded down like a golf cap, which drove my flight chief knuts.

The beanies were so new (had not seen one overseas) at that base that there still was no officially designed Security Police crest to use on it. No idea what the Elite used, but we sure as hell would never have been allowed to sully it.

Our commander obtained approval from Somewhere On High to use a standard SAC crest pin on 'em, and I have no idea when an official Security Forces crest was phased in.
Dunno what other squadrons elsewhere did.
Denis

JN01 · August 15, 2016, 02:48 PM

Quote:

LE was more of a PD, and not considered much of a part of base defense.
When we did drills & simulated exercises, I don't recall seeing them much involved.
Never saw them in restricted areas (nuke-loaded planes, other priority aircraft, bomb storage compounds).

Investigations handled thefts, drugs, etc.

I concur with most of your post, but during base-wide exercises, LE was often used to supplement Security on flight line posts, at least at bases I was at.

Also, crimes of a more serious nature were handled by OSI (Office of Special Investigation), who carried compact .45 autos when I was in.

DPris · August 15, 2016, 05:05 PM

I was trying to keep it fairly simple, without getting too far into Investigations.

There were SPI & OSI, but those only complicate the picture far beyond what the original question was.

Only noting here briefly what the various Security Police functions were to differentiate what was in the original post photo from the rest of the AF "Security And/or Police Umbrella".

I'm sure LE had things to do during base alerts & other drills & I'm not belittling those, just never saw 'em out in the restricted areas we had responsibility for.
Don't even know if they were authorized for restricted area access like we had to be.

Can't recall ever seeing LE draw a 16 or carry one.
They did their thing, we did ours.

Different functions that didn't overlap.
They didn't shoot people for getting too close to a Priority A B-52, we didn't shoot people for running a main gate.
Denis

rodfac · August 16, 2016, 04:58 PM

I trained and qualified with M15's at the USAF Academy from '65 to '68 and none had stag grips, nor did the SP's that were gate guards at the Academy in that time frame. Later, I was issued a M15 with the standard (non-target) grips while serving as a Forward Air Controller in Vietnam. I"ve never heard of stag griped M15's in USAF operations. As a KC-135 pilot from 70-75, none of the security police detailed to guard our alert birds at Fairchild AFB, WA were using stag gripped handguns.

In country, in Vietnam's lll Corps, in 1970, I was assigned to a Special Forces camp 10 k's from the Cambodian border. I carried what I damned well liked, including at one time or another: WWll era 1911a1, Browning HP, Smith's M15, an M79 grenade launcher and an AK47. We were never 'inspected' by higher authority, and were virtually immune to uniform and weapon regulations...the area was far to hot for any flip chart flunkie from Bien Hoa to visit....

This is not to say M15's with 'stag' grips didn't happen, but knowing the stateside Air Force at the time it seems highly unlikely in my experience...as always, YMMV, Rod

**Mike Irwin** · August 16, 2016, 06:30 PM

"This is not to say M15's with 'stag' grips didn't happen, but knowing the stateside Air Force at the time it seems highly unlikely in my experience...as always, YMMV, Rod"

As has been noted, and as has been shown in attached photographs, the stag-gripped revolvers were issued to SAC Elite guards, who served to protect Strategic Air Command assets, perform ceremonial functions, and provide security to the SAC commanding general.

They were, in essence, a praetorian guard inside the inner echelon of Air Force security forces.

Stag grips were not standard issue for all Air Force-issued S&W revolvers, and it's highly doubtful that many ever traveled outside of the United States, likely only doing so while providing security to SAC commanders.

**Mike Irwin** · August 16, 2016, 06:32 PM

A reference source citation from Wikipedia that indicates the origin of the SAC Elite guard's uniform and weapons.

Pinckney, Kali, Defensor Fortis: A Brief History of USAF Security And Those Dedicated Few Who Defend the Air Force At The Ground Level, Universal Publishers Press, ISBN 1-58112-554-2, ISBN 978-1-58112-554-2 (2003), pp. 37-38

Model12Win · August 16, 2016, 07:09 PM

Still cool how these air cops were rocking wheel guns into the 90s, long after most civy LEO groups gave up the old sixguns.

Driftwood Johnson · August 16, 2016, 09:23 PM

Howdy

Kind of looks like this K-38. The gun shipped in 1957, just before S&W went to their current system of model numbers. When I bought it, it was wearing this pair of fake stag horn grips. Clearly not original to the gun, but I really like them so I left them on it.

DPris · August 16, 2016, 10:49 PM

Rodfac,
Did you actually read any of the posts preceding yours?
Denis

dgludwig · August 17, 2016, 05:45 PM

Like rodfac, I was an Air Policeman assigned to security duties from 1962 to 1966.For the first 1 1/2 years I was stationed at Andersen AFB in Guam, where we carried 1911 pistols. For the last couple of years I was stationed at the Wurtsmith SAC AFB, in Michigan, where most of us were issued Smith & Wesson Model 10s with 2" long barrels and/or M1 Carbines. Some personnel were issued Smith "Combat Masterpieces" with 4" long barrels. I don't recall anyone ever being issued a revolver having stag grips-and I would have noticed if they did.

DPris · August 17, 2016, 05:55 PM

I don't believe Rodfac said he was Security Police.

Again- SAC ELITE!
ONE INSTALLATION.
Not general issue.

Should not be this hard to understand.
Denis

dgludwig · August 17, 2016, 06:08 PM

You're right, he didn't and, from what he said, probably wasn't. I was (SP). I guess I was referring to the SP that were "gate guards" at the academy.

rodfac · August 17, 2016, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Rodfac,
Did you actually read any of the posts preceding yours?
Denis

Yes I did, Dennis and my comments from personal experience stand as I wrote them. YMMV Apparently you didn't read that.

Don't know what you guys experienced, but as I said, from '64 to '75, I never saw stag gripped handguns on any security police anywhere. I was the Commanding General, 8th AF's personal pilot for 6 months out of Anderson in Guam, flew him to Offut many times and never saw "Elite" security personnel with stag gripped revolvers. As I said previously, YMMV. Rod

DPris · August 17, 2016, 10:28 PM

I did read your entire post, including the part where you expressed your opinion that stags were "highly unlikely", despite previous posts by me & others stating exactly who had them & why.

Those stags are documented, as carried by that one single unit, SAC Elite.

Not elite members of SAC Security Police worldwide, but the SAC guards who did carry them as part of a unit named "SAC Elite".

The fact that you never saw them in your "personal experience" doesn't in any way negate the fact that those grips were issued to that unit.

And going back over your earlier post, it appears you totally misunderstood the roll of SAC Elite.
They did not guard planes, so of course you didn't see them on the flightline or any alert pads.
Denis

rodfac · August 18, 2016, 08:36 AM

Did some Wikipedia research on SAC Elite after reading your posts Dennis...interesting reading. For a collector who runs across one of those guard revolvers, it'd be a bonanza for sure.

I spent quite a bit of time with Gen. Charles Minter, 8th AF Commander, both at Offut and Anderson and never ran across a guard armed as described, and that includes CINCSAC's outer office. That time period, in SAC was after my tour in Vietnam...70-75. Never said the guns didn't exist, only that I'd never seen them in that time period in or around the CINC or his retinue . That said, the Wikipedia write up is pretty definitive on their existence.

Best Regards, Rod

dgludwig · August 18, 2016, 09:03 AM

QUOTE: "... I was the Commanding General, 8th AF's personal pilot for 6 months out of Anderson in Guam,..."

AndersEn...

1911_Hardball · August 18, 2016, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DPris

At the time I was in (72-76),.....................
And, at my first base, in So Dakota,

We missed each other there, but not by much. I was security there from '78-81. Worked missiles and AC.

DPris · August 18, 2016, 10:56 AM

1911,
I worked 52s & 135s.
Never forget the first night when they hauled us out to the 52 pad in the back of a beat-to-spit Chebby pickup, dropped me off in the dark, said "Them two planes is yours. They BETTER be there when we come back for you!"

One of the most boring jobs in the universe.

Denis

1911_Hardball · August 18, 2016, 05:23 PM

I was lucky. When I got there I was a SSgt. Worked missiles for two years then went to aircraft. My just about permanent post was 2B. Bomber area supervisor.

DPris · August 18, 2016, 05:34 PM

Was only there less than a year before PCS to England.
Nice Black Hills area, saw my first bullet in flight on top of a mountain somewhere outside Rapid City, hated the job.
Denis

Seven High · August 19, 2016, 11:58 AM

Does anyone know if the stag grips were real stag horn, or were they plastic? If so, what was the brand name? I would like to find a set.

DPris · August 19, 2016, 12:43 PM

I don't know, but I'd surmise plastic, since they were more for show than anything & few seeing them would have known or cared about the difference.
Denis

August 15, 2016, 01:12 PM	#27
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"The stags were standard issue for SAC Elite guards" Yes, my post wasn't specific enough. It was an image thing. I THINK, but am not sure, that the Elite guard also had a special beret, didn't they? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 16, 2016, 04:58 PM	#32
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	I trained and qualified with M15's at the USAF Academy from '65 to '68 and none had stag grips, nor did the SP's that were gate guards at the Academy in that time frame. Later, I was issued a M15 with the standard (non-target) grips while serving as a Forward Air Controller in Vietnam. I"ve never heard of stag griped M15's in USAF operations. As a KC-135 pilot from 70-75, none of the security police detailed to guard our alert birds at Fairchild AFB, WA were using stag gripped handguns. In country, in Vietnam's lll Corps, in 1970, I was assigned to a Special Forces camp 10 k's from the Cambodian border. I carried what I damned well liked, including at one time or another: WWll era 1911a1, Browning HP, Smith's M15, an M79 grenade launcher and an AK47. We were never 'inspected' by higher authority, and were virtually immune to uniform and weapon regulations...the area was far to hot for any flip chart flunkie from Bien Hoa to visit.... This is not to say M15's with 'stag' grips didn't happen, but knowing the stateside Air Force at the time it seems highly unlikely in my experience...as always, YMMV, Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. Last edited by rodfac; August 16, 2016 at 05:07 PM.

August 16, 2016, 06:30 PM	#33
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	"This is not to say M15's with 'stag' grips didn't happen, but knowing the stateside Air Force at the time it seems highly unlikely in my experience...as always, YMMV, Rod" As has been noted, and as has been shown in attached photographs, the stag-gripped revolvers were issued to SAC Elite guards, who served to protect Strategic Air Command assets, perform ceremonial functions, and provide security to the SAC commanding general. They were, in essence, a praetorian guard inside the inner echelon of Air Force security forces. Stag grips were not standard issue for all Air Force-issued S&W revolvers, and it's highly doubtful that many ever traveled outside of the United States, likely only doing so while providing security to SAC commanders. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 16, 2016, 06:32 PM	#34
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	A reference source citation from Wikipedia that indicates the origin of the SAC Elite guard's uniform and weapons. Pinckney, Kali, Defensor Fortis: A Brief History of USAF Security And Those Dedicated Few Who Defend the Air Force At The Ground Level, Universal Publishers Press, ISBN 1-58112-554-2, ISBN 978-1-58112-554-2 (2003), pp. 37-38 __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 17, 2016, 05:45 PM	#38
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Like rodfac, I was an Air Policeman assigned to security duties from 1962 to 1966.For the first 1 1/2 years I was stationed at Andersen AFB in Guam, where we carried 1911 pistols. For the last couple of years I was stationed at the Wurtsmith SAC AFB, in Michigan, where most of us were issued Smith & Wesson Model 10s with 2" long barrels and/or M1 Carbines. Some personnel were issued Smith "Combat Masterpieces" with 4" long barrels. I don't recall anyone ever being issued a revolver having stag grips-and I would have noticed if they did. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

August 15, 2016, 01:01 PM	#26
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Individuality in SAC Elite was NOT encouraged. Not knocking those guys, but they were a showroom unit & had to be on top of their game constantly. They just played a different game than us ground-sloggers did. The LE guys were nowhere near as "special" as Elite, but were still more on display to the public at gates & more recognizable as "cops" in the visible areas of the base. Mostly, if you saw us SPs anywhere but the chow hall, you were getting too near places you shouldn't be, without a restricted area card. We didn't have to look pretty, we were mostly just there as a physical presence with a gun to keep unauthorized people out of places that unauthorized people weren't supposed to be in, with a side order (in actual reality) of being the first ones shot if anybody did want to get at an asset. And, re the queen, she certainly never provided an honor guard reception when I first arrived in HER country! Denis

August 15, 2016, 01:56 PM	#28
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	SAC Elite INVENTED the USAF blue beanie. Which was eventually forced on the rest of us later on. Hated that worthless thing. Still actually have mine. Denis

August 15, 2016, 02:14 PM	#29
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	The only thing different about the Elite beanie & ours would have been the crest. The beanie was spreading when I came back to the US in late 75. My SP squadron in Michigan had just adopted it shortly before I got there. They didn't have one in my size in Supply, so I was allowed to stick to the old ballcap while they ordered one all the way from Canada. Once issued, I wore mine with the front stiffener folded down like a golf cap, which drove my flight chief knuts. The beanies were so new (had not seen one overseas) at that base that there still was no officially designed Security Police crest to use on it. No idea what the Elite used, but we sure as hell would never have been allowed to sully it. Our commander obtained approval from Somewhere On High to use a standard SAC crest pin on 'em, and I have no idea when an official Security Forces crest was phased in. Dunno what other squadrons elsewhere did. Denis

August 15, 2016, 05:05 PM	#31
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	I was trying to keep it fairly simple, without getting too far into Investigations. There were SPI & OSI, but those only complicate the picture far beyond what the original question was. Only noting here briefly what the various Security Police functions were to differentiate what was in the original post photo from the rest of the AF "Security And/or Police Umbrella". I'm sure LE had things to do during base alerts & other drills & I'm not belittling those, just never saw 'em out in the restricted areas we had responsibility for. Don't even know if they were authorized for restricted area access like we had to be. Can't recall ever seeing LE draw a 16 or carry one. They did their thing, we did ours. Different functions that didn't overlap. They didn't shoot people for getting too close to a Priority A B-52, we didn't shoot people for running a main gate. Denis

August 16, 2016, 07:09 PM	#35
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Still cool how these air cops were rocking wheel guns into the 90s, long after most civy LEO groups gave up the old sixguns.

August 16, 2016, 09:23 PM	#36
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy Kind of looks like this K-38. The gun shipped in 1957, just before S&W went to their current system of model numbers. When I bought it, it was wearing this pair of fake stag horn grips. Clearly not original to the gun, but I really like them so I left them on it.

August 16, 2016, 10:49 PM	#37
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Rodfac, Did you actually read any of the posts preceding yours? Denis

August 17, 2016, 05:55 PM	#39
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	I don't believe Rodfac said he was Security Police. Again- SAC ELITE! ONE INSTALLATION. Not general issue. Should not be this hard to understand. Denis

August 17, 2016, 06:08 PM	#40
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	You're right, he didn't and, from what he said, probably wasn't. I was (SP). I guess I was referring to the SP that were "gate guards" at the academy. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

August 17, 2016, 10:28 PM	#42
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	I did read your entire post, including the part where you expressed your opinion that stags were "highly unlikely", despite previous posts by me & others stating exactly who had them & why. Those stags are documented, as carried by that one single unit, SAC Elite. Not elite members of SAC Security Police worldwide, but the SAC guards who did carry them as part of a unit named "SAC Elite". The fact that you never saw them in your "personal experience" doesn't in any way negate the fact that those grips were issued to that unit. And going back over your earlier post, it appears you totally misunderstood the roll of SAC Elite. They did not guard planes, so of course you didn't see them on the flightline or any alert pads. Denis Last edited by DPris; August 17, 2016 at 11:13 PM.

August 18, 2016, 08:36 AM	#43
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	Did some Wikipedia research on SAC Elite after reading your posts Dennis...interesting reading. For a collector who runs across one of those guard revolvers, it'd be a bonanza for sure. I spent quite a bit of time with Gen. Charles Minter, 8th AF Commander, both at Offut and Anderson and never ran across a guard armed as described, and that includes CINCSAC's outer office. That time period, in SAC was after my tour in Vietnam...70-75. Never said the guns didn't exist, only that I'd never seen them in that time period in or around the CINC or his retinue . That said, the Wikipedia write up is pretty definitive on their existence. Best Regards, Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

August 18, 2016, 09:03 AM	#44
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	QUOTE: "... I was the Commanding General, 8th AF's personal pilot for 6 months out of Anderson in Guam,..." AndersEn... __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

August 18, 2016, 10:56 AM	#46
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	1911, I worked 52s & 135s. Never forget the first night when they hauled us out to the 52 pad in the back of a beat-to-spit Chebby pickup, dropped me off in the dark, said "Them two planes is yours. They BETTER be there when we come back for you!" One of the most boring jobs in the universe. Denis

August 18, 2016, 05:23 PM	#47
1911_Hardball Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2009 Location: SD Posts: 198	I was lucky. When I got there I was a SSgt. Worked missiles for two years then went to aircraft. My just about permanent post was 2B. Bomber area supervisor.

August 18, 2016, 05:34 PM	#48
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Was only there less than a year before PCS to England. Nice Black Hills area, saw my first bullet in flight on top of a mountain somewhere outside Rapid City, hated the job. Denis

August 19, 2016, 11:58 AM	#49
Seven High Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Posts: 650	Does anyone know if the stag grips were real stag horn, or were they plastic? If so, what was the brand name? I would like to find a set.

August 19, 2016, 12:43 PM	#50
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	I don't know, but I'd surmise plastic, since they were more for show than anything & few seeing them would have known or cared about the difference. Denis