February 18, 2018, 10:45 PM | #76 |
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I used to work at a store that sold guns and I believe that a shall issue firearm owners license should be required that looks into all the above mentioned things, such as social media, criminal background, # of complaints and what types, etc.
I say this from all the experiences of people coming into the store who were confrontational, dangerously ignorant, just plain stupid, or actual criminals, or any combination of these things. Our right to bear arms is just as important a civil right as the others, however people are stupid and I think the bar should be set higher, the same way as there are restrictions on other rights when it comes to effecting other's lives. Someone will make the argument that gun control is punishing the crime before the fact. However, unlike crimes that violate the other civil rights (speech, assembly, etc,) the crime when it comes to guns usually ends up with someone in the hospital or a morgue. No amount of lawsuits or trials can make up for death. Also, for those who will make this argument, if you don't like the idea of the government looking into your medical history, social media, background and other information, they already can do this. Thanks NSA for keeping us all safe. Remember, we should be open to debate; that is why we have a forum. Close mindedness and sticking to arguments you know are flawed does not help anything. I don't like liberals either but we should be willing to keep open ears about other's concerns.
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“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson Last edited by NateKirk; February 18, 2018 at 11:11 PM. |
February 18, 2018, 11:00 PM | #77 | |
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Do pre-employment scans show applicants who are voluntarily undergoing therapy? Or who perhaps should be in treatment, but aren't? The Pulse nightclub shooter had a job ... as an armed security guard. The Parkland shooter had a job. The Las Vegas shooter was a millionaire accountant. He didn't work, but I'm sure if he had applied for a job at an accounting firm they would have hired him. The San Bernardino shooter had a job. Major Fort Hood shooter had a job. What's so great about pre-employment screens as opposed to NICS? Last edited by Aguila Blanca; February 18, 2018 at 11:07 PM. |
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February 18, 2018, 11:05 PM | #78 | |
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February 18, 2018, 11:06 PM | #79 | |
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February 18, 2018, 11:09 PM | #80 | |
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February 18, 2018, 11:16 PM | #81 | |
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February 18, 2018, 11:25 PM | #82 |
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So numerous aspects of local and federal government drop the ball on repeated occasions, but we want to turn background checks from the reactive system to a proactive check that equates to that of a security clearance? With the same government that has already flubbed on numerous occasions in charge? No thanks. Did you realize that ted Kennedy was placed on the no-fly list because of a clerical error? Numerous other documented cases like that as well.
Yes I'm aware that private industry frequently does a social media "background" but let's acknowledge that private industry isn't violating a constitutional right by refusing to hire you. Also, AI and algorithms only go so far. To date, they can't verify that "John Baker's" Facebook page is the same John Baker that is applying for this particular firearm purchase permit with absolute veracity in every case. What if "John Baker" doesn't even have a Facebook or Instagram? Not to mention it WILL cost if you actually introduce due process and not just an algorithm. I'm experienced with background checks as well, I do preemployment investigations when assigned by my agency. AI can do a lot, but there has to be a human confirming the data and making judgement calls. And no, I am not a blind "pry them from my cold dead hands" guy. I would be OK with a bump stock ban. Even though many of my peers here disagree with me. |
February 18, 2018, 11:30 PM | #83 | |
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Aquila,
The speed limit was only an example. The problem here is that people are abusing one constitutional/ human right to violate another constitutional/ human right of someone else. The conflict in this case is right to bear arms vs. right to life. One is being abused in order to violate the other. Assume both rights are perfectly equal. There is a problem that needs to be addressed. Which right is the only one that can be limited of those two in order to help alleviate the problem? I'll say it again, the bar for firearm ownership has to be set higher. And to quote someone from earlier: Quote:
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February 18, 2018, 11:52 PM | #84 | |
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Or, this is how we end up doing nothing because somebody in goverment screwed up. Aint perfect? Then its not going to work. See? Same arguments keep festerig and the outcome is doing nothing. AguilaBlanca Having job does not mean the people were subjected to a pre-employment check. Hell, Kushner still doesn't have a security clearance. Lots of employers are lackadaisical about checking references etc. Pre-employment background checks are more granular, and can reveal more than the NICS check. We aren't getting the lowdown on some gunbuyers. Last edited by Colorado Redneck; February 18, 2018 at 11:58 PM. |
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February 19, 2018, 02:57 AM | #85 |
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Well there have been over 1100 views of this thread as I am posting.
I don't know if the moderators have been pulling posts or not. So far I think every member here should be just a little bit proud that we can discuss these issues. This is of course a 'gun forum' and folk that mention limiting 'gun rights' obviously won't get a warm happy response to their opinions but nobody has gotten too upset yet and this is a very, very sensitive topic. I'm saying I appreciate the intelligence and politeness being shown here. I go out and read the 'main stream media' stories and pro or anti when I read the comments they are ruined by folks calling names, making ridiculous claims and hurling personal attacks at one another. It's like walking down a street and seeing litter, garbage and trash. I like this site. The moderators can take a LOT of credit for it and so can the members. |
February 19, 2018, 07:15 AM | #86 | ||
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Prior to the NFA, one could mail order or buy from a store what ever the small arms market had to offer. Following the NFA, one needed a tolerance for paper work and money for the government stamp. Prior to the GCA, one could buy a firearm at the hardware or department store the same way he could buy a chainsaw or a snow blower. After the the GCA that market was federalised and regulated so that a buyer could only purchase a new arm from a federal licensee. For a decade, there were a number of products available in the rifle market that could no longer be purchased new under the AWB. Those are the big ones, but there are a number of other state imposed restrictions like waiting periods, ammunition restrictions, state lists of approved arms and effective prohibitions (DC) and legal prohibitions (Morton Grove). Each of these was a step in the political drive toward restriction. Except for DC and Morton Grove, each time that political process was set forth as a compromise position, a solution that would preserve a vestige of the prior freedom of behavior. By their nature, these political compromises aren't solutions, but reflect the state of politics in the moment of their creation. Each step gets us a bit more used the idea that each new silly regulation is something to which we must adjust, and confirms a habit of adjustment to silly restrictions. In that sort of regulatory stew, people ask questions like "Why do you need X?" "Who should be allowed to have X?" as if they weren't absurd questions to pose about a constitutional right. The sphere of freedom can become so constricted that a constitutional right can be very heavily regulated and the market quite limited so that the right itself comes to be seen as describing such a small amount of freedom that a person could know all of the above and still ask how the next proposed restriction shrinks any right.
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February 19, 2018, 08:04 AM | #87 | |
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The nature of a right changes over time to account for changing situations and new realizations about the side effects of that right. Like I said earlier, this is a debate between the right to bear arms vs. the right to live. One is being abused to violate the other, and only one of those two rights can be restricted in order to help alleviate the problem. The bar for ownership should be set higher.
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“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson Last edited by NateKirk; February 19, 2018 at 08:10 AM. |
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February 19, 2018, 08:31 AM | #88 |
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I'm going to admit I have not read this whole thread. I did read large chunks of it but honestly I did not read every word.
I apologize for that but have felt the need to say this somewhere so going to take the opportunity to do this. What happened in FL and at other schools is tragic and should not have have to be witnessed or endured by anyone. With that being said I don't think any of the discussion that occurs is about the loss of life or saving children. This is simply about fear that certain groups latch on to and others are driven to champion. If we as a society were really concerned about saving children we would be talking with outrage about several other far greater impacts on childhood mortality. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...tics/72318198/ http://safehavensinternational.org/w...12_Schools.pdf Transportation related deaths are far more likely to kill a school aged child yet there is no gnashing of teeth or flailing of fists over that. Why? Hell in some years lightening strikes killed more kids than firearms yet again where is the anger and demands for playground safety? I am sure there are some good people out there that really do care about protecting children. Unfortunately I think the vast majority of people demanding increased gun laws/bans are simply scared of an intimate object and latch on to public concern to facilitate their own fears. If this debate was really about protecting children guns would come much later after we tackle the real cause of the majority of student mortality. |
February 19, 2018, 08:31 AM | #89 | |
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February 19, 2018, 08:47 AM | #90 | ||
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Who really thinks that my feeling of comfort is a real standard for the exercise of an explicit constitutional right? Quote:
A right that changes over time according to the momentary whim of a legislature is not a constitutional right in our system. It is not correct that the 2d Am. is the only right in the balance. As suggested in post 39, revision of 1st Am. rights would be very helpful in preventing murder mimcry. 4th Am. rights stand in the way of law enforcement who could raid the home of potential murderers, so that needs to "change" as well. 5th Am. protection just make it more difficult to get dangerous loons convicted and behind bars, so we can all feel more comfortable. Recognising the need for a wide range of "changes" in our rights is certainly worth feeling as we've done something about this rare crime, right?
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February 19, 2018, 08:58 AM | #91 | |
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Setting a higher bar for firearm ownership would make things safer as it would require more of an investment in terms of time, money, and training (mental effort) that will help to deter the curious but dangerously ignorant hobbyist, criminals, the mentally unstable and incompetent, etc. A more stringent and deeper background check will help to further weed out those who probably shouldn't have access to lethal weapons. People use guns to kill each other because they are convenient not just effective. Requiring more of a shooting education and investment in order to access firearms legally, will make them less convenient. Someone will make the argument that people are going to just kill each other anyway, even if they have to use a different method; that is besides the point. The point is that firearms will be less convenient to the unstable making mass shootings less feasible, and by making these compromises the firearms community will be protected. "Setting a higher bar" should entail a firearm owners license with a waiting period of a short time, a more thorough and stringent background check, and the mandatory attendance of a class designed to teach one how to safely and accurately use a firearm. This will all be funded by licensing fees. One will make the argument that they shouldn't have to be charged to exercise their right, however by this logic, the government should supplement their ammunition costs.
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February 19, 2018, 09:04 AM | #92 | |
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Are curious hobbyists a big public safety issue? Which school shooter was a greater danger because he didn't know how to use arms safely and accurately? How would a short waiting period have deterred the Parkland killer?
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February 19, 2018, 09:06 AM | #93 | |||
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"People use guns to kill each other because they are convenient not just effective. Requiring more of a shooting education and investment in order to access firearms legally, will make them less convenient. Someone will make the argument that people are going to just kill each other anyway, even if they have to use a different method; that is besides the point. The point is that firearms will be less convenient to the unstable making mass shootings less feasible, and by making these compromises the firearms community will be protected." Quote:
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“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".” ― --Thomas Jefferson Last edited by NateKirk; February 19, 2018 at 09:13 AM. |
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February 19, 2018, 09:23 AM | #94 | ||||||
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There is no great convenience in hacking someone up with a machete, but that didn't deter many Rwuandans. It is much more convenient to rent a truck and drive it through a crowd. Making firearms a proxy for conventience is likely an error. Quote:
The 1st Am. doesn't require the government to furnish free paper. Yet, prohibiting paper to be used to publish text wold run afoul of the 1st Am. by making a free (free of congressional control, not free of cost) press impossible. You are proposing the equivalent of a license to publish a book or newspaper, a charge for the exercise of the right rather than the tools to exercise it.
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February 19, 2018, 09:28 AM | #95 |
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Mildly sensible article about making decisions actually based on empirical analyses.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...17022?lo=ap_f1
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February 19, 2018, 09:48 AM | #96 | ||||
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I can't debate with someone who misdirects the exchange by deliberately misunderstanding the arguments of the opposition.
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Another important point is that the people who carry out mass shooting would rather I'm sure be remembered as a killer or a murderer, the label the gun provides, rather than as a psychopath or terrorist, the label that bombs, trucks, machetes, etc, provides. There needs to be a higher bar set for firearm ownership. It may be slightly inconvenient but the benefits would outweigh the cost, the cost being convenience, and the benefits being a more educated and safe firearm community and less access to weapons for the ignorant and dangerous.
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February 19, 2018, 09:54 AM | #97 | ||
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That's an interesting article to me because of the ambiguity.
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At it's core, Rosenberg;s thesis is problematic to the dregree it seeks a solution to a problem of underlying values and legal rights in statistical measurement. Some questions don't lend themselves to statistical resolution. Beating a child with a belt may prompt greater compliance with rules, but we don't condone it anyway. Literacy testing may provide a less easily manipulated pool of voters, but we've made a value judgment that those will not be used. That's not an argument for ignorance, but for distinguishing between result measurement and civil values.
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February 19, 2018, 10:17 AM | #98 | |||||
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If your point is as you set it forth above, that the logic that forbids a fee to practice a right also requires the government to provide the materiel to exercise the right, then your point had less merit. Quote:
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February 19, 2018, 10:38 AM | #99 |
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Gun-violence restraining orders
I think we are in agreement that nut-jobs should have have access to guns. What better group of individuals to see the warning signs than family members and those closest to the disturbed individual?
Link to article from the National Review (a conservation publication) discussing GVROs. https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...consider-grvo/
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February 19, 2018, 10:50 AM | #100 |
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NateKirk and Colorado Redneck keep linking increased restrictions to basic ownership.
The federal government has been adding restrictions to gun ownership for almost a hundred years. If they just created a federal license that removed even the most minor of those restrictions (NFA taxes, purchasing across state lines, etc.), gun owners would line up to voluntarily license and register themselves and slap each other on the back for the big win in gun rights. You could achieve 90% of what these proposed expanded background checks would do and gun owners would clamor to do it. Who has licensed and trained more gun owners than any gun control legislation ever has in the history of the world? The NRA via concealed carry licensing. In return for accepting training and licensing requirements, gun owners got something in return. But at its core, the gun control legislation proposed in Congress isn't about that. It is cultural warfare to punish crimethink. That's why it is important that all gun control legislation not just take away existing rights; but do it in a way to force submission. It is why gun control people hate concealed carry even though it does all the things they claim to want in common sense gun control (deeper background checks, licensing, mandatory training). I'm not sure if NateKirk and ColoradoRedneck are drinking so deeply of the koolaid that they don't even recognize there is another way or they just agree that gun ownership is double plus ungood. It is hard to tell when NateKirk considers existing CHLs who are licensed and required to undergo mandatory training as a problem, But an actual compromise involves both sides getting something. Give me half of what you got and I won't take it all isn't a compromise. That's the opening line of a robbery and there is only one valid response to such demands. |
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