So what are people thinking about the "Reformation"

[marine6680]

The new "firearm" from Franklin Armory.

It looks like an 11.5in barreled AR SBR.

Uses a barrel with straight lands and grooves to avoid a shotgun and rifle designation. Fitting into the "firearm" category, so it can have a proper rear stock.

Info here

It would only really be useful in a HD role, where the ranges are inside 25yds.

Past 50yds the company claims it begins to keyhole. But it will hold to a couple inch groups up to that point.

So other than HD and kicking the NFA in the bits... I can't see it useful elsewhere.

But for a dedicated HD setup, it would be a good way to go, and avoiding all the hassle of getting a stamp.

[Kvon2]

I just made a post about this as well. I'm not a fan, especially for $2000.

I believe Browning once said only accurate guns are interesting. Key holes at 50 yards is not interesting.

[444]

I think it is interesting.
I like the thinking outside the box.
I won't be buying one.
I have several registered SBR lowers (and the uppers have conventional rifling).

[625TC]

Looks interesting even fun but not 2 grand worth.

[marine6680]

If they sell the barrels, so you can build you own... Which I think is in their plans...

Then it would be more interesting.

I definitely wouldn't want to spend $2000 on one. Yeah, it is billet, and it has the binary trigger (The one I think is useless because it does nothing to prevent hammer follow due to over running the trigger)... but it's not $2000 worth of gun to me.

Now, I would pay a bit of a premium for the barrel, say $100-150 over an equivalent standard barrel... As it is an interesting idea to get around the law.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, it is different. I'm not sure what practical niche it fills beyond poking ATF in the neck. And $2000? That gives me $1500 to build a nice SBR with, $200 for the stamp and I still save money; plus I can shoot it past 50m.

[johnwilliamson062]

This is stupid.

But it cost almost nothing extra to manufacture, marginal cost may be lower, and they are planning to charge a premium for it.

If they sell the barrels it might be interesting, especially if it can skate state laws that restrict SBRs. That may be their long-term hope.

[cslinger]

Question is, does it skirt NY/Cali type laws? That could get interesting.

[deserted]

Just put a Shockwave or Sig brace on your AR pistol. I paid $29 for the Shockwave, and $49 for the Sig (which just came today). Building another 10.5" upper in 25-45 Sharps.
The Shockwave, with a thumb screw replacing their recessed Allen head, is very adjustable. This Sig is a very tight friction fit, so not so adjustable, but works quite well. My current $300 AR pistol from a kit and an 80% lower shoots better than my Colt HBAR Match. Can't see spending $2k on a gun that won't shoot fifty yard groups, when I can build four or five that will for the same money.

[MagnumWill]

Col. Townshend Whelen was the one that said “only accurate rifles are interesting”.

And I agree with everyone. For $2,000 I could build 3 AR pistols...

[kozak6]

It's a brilliant advertising stunt and a disappointing product.

Keyholing at 50 yards. Dang.

It's basically a waste of a round at that point. A brace on a "pistol" is probably cheaper and more effective. Might not be horrible for home defense, but that's about it. It might not be accurate enough to keep plinking fun.

A rifled choke/brake might work for pistol cartridges. Except arm braces seem pretty good these days.

Here's a question: does overall length matter for something like this?

[JT-AR-MG42]

I think that the fact the maker sees a market for a gun that will key hole bullets at 50 yards
BUT holds 30, 50, or 100 rounds of the same performance
says A LOT.

I've always been a live and let live sort of person.
Your type of shooting,( i.e. benchrest, speed steel , ispc, cowboy, you name it) might bore me to death,
but I applaud your efforts and champion your venue as a way to attract new shooters to our ranks.

However the shooting sports or just plinking ALL have only one thing in common.

You are trying to hit a target!

Deliberately buying such a gun is honestly beyond my comprehension.
When I need to hear loud noises to no real effect, I just grab up a couple of old
Revere ware frying pans and whack them together in a small space.
Very loud with a recoil like feeling in the hands.

JT

[DT Guy]

I'm not the target market for this-and I think the Binary trigger is *extremely* problematic.

That said, they've put 30 rounds of 5.56 in a short, light, handy package with the same effective range as a typical shotgun; while not my cup of tea, that's not 'useless' for home defense.

Larry

[Art Eatman]

I don't see where it would be any more useful for any purpose as compared to multitudes of options costing one-fourth as much (or less).

Sorta like cocaine: "God's way of telling you that you have too much money."

[zukiphile]

Uses a barrel with straight lands and grooves to avoid a shotgun and rifle designation.

At least you won't have to worry about the bullet overstabilizing.

[disseminator]

So, since it's not a Rifle, will the company send one directly to your house in the mail?

The thing about poking at the Bear is.... eventually he pokes back.

[Apple a Day]

It's a semi-auto musket.

[DubC-Hicks]

So I think we all agree the Reformation is worthless. I'm sure some people will buy it, and who cares what they do with their money. But now the real question is, if we put straight grooves in shotgun barrels, do we get 8-14" shotguns with stocks legally without a stamp? That'd have my interest.

[CalmerThanYou]

An extra three inches, with a conventional barrel with a flash hider makes a whole lot more sense to me. Plus I like the braced pistol concept. This product seems useless and like others have stated will likely draw the ire of the NFA

[COSteve]

So the ATF comes out with a revision to their definition of a rifle and the idea is toast. Say they define 'rifling' as "groves in the barrel whether curved or straight."? Then everyone who has one, like those with bumpstocks now, are on shaky legal ground.

[imashooter]

I believe the sbr stamp will be a thing of the past nlt Nov. 2020.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by COSteve

So the ATF comes out with a revision to their definition of a rifle and the idea is toast. Say they define 'rifling' as "groves in the barrel whether curved or straight."? Then everyone who has one, like those with bumpstocks now, are on shaky legal ground.

They can’t revise the definition of a rifle, that’s defined in federal law. The ATF can’t make or change laws, all they can do is interpret them and hope that interpretation holds up to any future court challenges. And considering rifling has always involved a twist, I think it would be hard for them to convince a court that straight grooves are rifling.

[dakota.potts]

So I think we all agree the Reformation is worthless. I'm sure some people will buy it, and who cares what they do with their money. But now the real question is, if we put straight grooves in shotgun barrels, do we get 8-14" shotguns with stocks legally without a stamp? That'd have my interest.

With .410 it's a possibility. Anything else gets into "destructive device" category for being over a half inch I think.

The Reformation might be a flop but the idea might have some merit. In a 5.56 carbine, it's pretty useless. However, the home gun builder in me is thinking of all the military SMG kits that are being rebuilt currently (Uzi, Sten, PPS43, CZ 26, etc.) which typically have <12" barrels and either have to have the stock folder, "anteater" barrel of 16+", a brace, or a tax stamp. Many of these, being pistol calibers to begin with, would be in acceptable margins of 4" at 50 yards and might even stabilize better, being fatter. That's just a guess. They say they've had better groups out of the .300 BLK so that's a possibility.

On the note of binary triggers, I wanted one until I shot one. Way too much mental control required and I still feel it would be easy to lose control of. On an RPK or other heavy gun with a bipod, it might be fun. On a serious home defense or duty weapon, I consider it far more of a liability than anything. Fine motor skills are not something one tends to have in abundance when they are in mortal danger.

[James K]

Is the idea that straight rifling is not rifling and so the weapon is not a rifle? I don't think it will work; straight rifling dates back to before mid-19th century and has always been considered rifling technically and legally, even though it doesn't turn.

Jim

[MarkCO]

Full retard IMHO. Eating Tide pods is thinking outside the box too.

How "straight" does it have to be to be considered "not twisted"?