Goex vs. Schuetzen

ThomasT · March 31, 2018, 01:15 PM

I am considering ordering powder. I looked on the Graf & Sons site and they have their own branded powder that some have said is repackaged Schuetzen powder. How does the Shuetzen compare to the standard Goex powder a far as power goes?

Many years ago I bought several cans of Elephant brand powder from Grafs. It was cheap but seemed to work as well as the Goex if you didn't mind the stray small piece of wood once in a while. I still have a few cans of it. It was $6 a pound IIRC.

I would to just order another 25 pounds from powder inc but the total price of around $460 is stopping me. And none of my friends wants to split a case. They have 2-5 pounds and think they have all they will need for the rest of their days.

And before you say it yes I have considered making my own. But the deductible on my house is $1,800. For that much I can buy 100 pounds of powder.

FrontierGander · March 31, 2018, 01:50 PM

I like Goex a lot more. Schuetzen for me had been erratic and group sized opened up greatly.

ThomasT · March 31, 2018, 09:41 PM

Thats the information I was looking for. Plus I dug out my supply of powder to see what I have on hand and had no idea I was so well supplied. I have 16 pounds of 2F and 15 pounds of 3F plus 5 pounds of Pyrodex RS. So maybe I don't need any powder right now.

I think I need to go shoot some. I haven't shot my BP rifles in several years but have the bug to do so now. I get on a BP kick ever once in a while and just have to go shoot. I have a Cabelas 54 caliber Hawken I bought at least 5 years ago I have still never fired. Its a very nice, clean rifle I bought to replace the first BP gun I ever bought and let my bud talk me out of. I killed my first Elk with that gun.

44 Dave · April 1, 2018, 02:42 PM

Have been shooting Graf's and am satisfied with it. We just ordered last month. One of us wanted some of their reinactor powder it looks to have irregular granulation, but for noise and smoke the price is better.

maillemaker · April 2, 2018, 10:49 AM

I bought Schuetzen once when Goex was unavailable. I will never buy it again. I was experimenting with the Moose Wilkinson bullet, which has very small lube carrying capability. With Schuetzen, I could only get off about 3 shots before the bore started feeling crunchy on loading. With Goex, I can shoot pretty much indefinitely.

I have recently tried Schuetzen caps though, and they are great. Cheaper than Dynamite Nobel, and more energetic.

Model12Win · April 2, 2018, 09:54 PM

Graf's.

Driftwood Johnson · April 3, 2018, 09:58 AM

Howdy

My experience with Schuetzen has been different. I have been using it exclusively for all my CAS ammo for quite a few years now. I find less fouling with Schuetzen than with Goex.

As far as velocity or power is concerned, I have no idea. I don't own a chrony so I have never done a side by side comparison. Don't really care, my Schuetzen loads knock down anything I point them at.

Schuetzen uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex does, that is why it shoots cleaner.

And yes, Graf powder is Schuetzen packaged in Graf's bottles. Both are made by Wano in Germany.

B.L.E. · April 4, 2018, 05:22 AM

I find Schuetzen and Goex to be nearly interchangeable. I compared velocities using a CED M2 Chronograph with my .36 caliber rifle and the shot to shot variation in velocity with either powder was greater than the difference between the the two powders. The Goex may have been slightly hotter but not by much.
Sorry, I don't remember the exact numbers, but they were around 1500 fps using a 35 grain powder charge.

ThomasT · April 6, 2018, 08:46 PM

Thanks for the input guys. Sounds like there are more positive reviews than negative for the Grafs powder. That’s good. I still have 8 pounds of Elephant powder I bought from Grafs in the early and mid 1990s left. I never had any problem with it and couldn’t tell any loss of power from Goex. I think I paid around $6 a pound for it.

drobs · April 6, 2018, 11:15 PM

All I shoot is Graf's. Can't beat the price.
Seems accurate enough for me using it in my C&B revolvers and new Lyman GPR.

I would like to do a mix and match order and try a little bit of everything from Graf's but financially it makes most sense to buy all Graf's Scheutzen.

TripleSe7en · April 7, 2018, 08:27 AM

I've used both. Goex is more target paper-consistent.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · April 7, 2018, 09:58 AM

Good morning.
Its to bad some of you fellows can't find Black in State and close by. <But that negative is a real initiative to start making your own.

Staying on point.
I have never tried Schuetzen or any other brand of B/P other than Gorex (red can) . Although all brands indeed are sold locally here. As far as amount of store bought on I have on hand. Maybe 3-4 one lb cans at most. But
I recently noticed the tops of those cans are getting a bit rusty looking these days. I suppose when I started making my own powder about 3-4 years ago is the cause for that to happen? "My rifles are well used but those tins of store bought aren't."

I don't make big batches of powder. Just enough B/P milled at a time for my shooting purpose. (1-1/4 lb per milling.)
No B/P pistols do I own or shoot so I get by just fine with simple screened powder. (not corned) Although I have made both and we at home powder makers know corned powder is a whole lot less barrel fouling but requires a lot more tinkering with than screened.
Fouling /dirty as all get out screened is. But no matter. A quick swapping after two three shots isn't a bother for me. If intending to make your own. Keep in mind. Homemade screened or corned requires more powder by volume measured to near equal a store bought's performance.
Easiest way to say. If you shoot a 1/2 lb of store bought 2-FFg powder per outing. You'll need almost 3/4 lb of Homemade {corned 2-FF} to accommodate the same amount of shooting. So get to making your own. But watch what you say to those neighbors whom live close by> is a suggestion. When asked what your up too? (noise a ball mill produces.)

ThomasT · April 7, 2018, 10:18 AM

I tried making BP many years ago. But I did everything wrong that could be done wrong. There was no internet or youtube videos to watch. I didn't mill it but I did try mashing it in a bowl with a wood dowel. I didn't grind my potasium into dust. Just mixed it a little wet and let it dry. It wasn't black. It was grey. Made a great fuse but crap for powder.

Now that I know more about it I may buy a pound of stump remover and give it a go. Hopefully I am going shooting tomorrow and I am going to cut some limbs from the willow trees around my buds pond and make some decent charcoal. In a couple of months from now if I am not posting here anymore you can assume something went terribly wrong.

ThomasT · April 7, 2018, 10:43 AM

I just found this. Five pounds of potasium for $17.77 with free shipping. I ordered 10 pounds. If I can't make a workable powder I can always add it to my tomato plants.

http://www.seedranch.com/Potassium-N...3-powder-5.htm

Sure Shot Mc Gee · April 7, 2018, 02:11 PM

Well actually potassium is better suited for fruit trees than tomato plants. Even so you purchased a dandy nitrate for the purpose. (little to no additives_that's a good thing.)

ThomasT · April 7, 2018, 07:50 PM

Sure shot I have no fruit trees. I have no tomato plants either but have thought about buying a couple and putting in my wife's flower bed. I really wouldn't use this on plants anyway. I will try to make a batch of powder. I have found a ball mill, ceramic coffee grinder and a device to compress the powder into pucks. So all I have to do is get the ingredients and try it.

Any suggestions on a proper size screen? I will probably try for 2F sized powder.

Quote:

Even so you purchased a dandy nitrate for the purpose. (little to no additives_that's a good thing.)

There use to be sellers on Ebay with this same quality of powder in 25lb bags. But not any more. But I am happy with what I bought. That should at least satisfy my desire to give this a try. And who knows? It may be a lot of fun.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · April 8, 2018, 12:20 AM

Those that make corned 3-FFF many have bought-en two sizes of kitchen strainers/seive for the sizing purpose from their local walmart.

2-FF requires a bit larger mesh opening. Which I found and purchased from my local Grainger supply.
Keep in mind I screed /press my water dampened meal powder thru a screen >to size. __Not grind then shake it thru two different sizes of kitchen strainers. As done with corned powder.

BLACK POWDER GALVANIZED SCREEN SIZE TO SCREED MEAL POWDER THRU.

Fg. 12 - 16 Mesh 1,68 - 1,19 mm
FFg. 16 - 30 Mesh 1,19 - 0,60 mm
FFFg. 20 - 50 Mesh 0,84 - 0,30 mm
FFFFg. 40 - 100 Mesh 0,42 - 0,15 mm

Screens:
No.5__Fg__12 - 16 Mesh 1,60 - 1,2 mm
No.4 __FFG_16 - 30 Mesh 1,36 - 0,9 mm
No.3__FFFg_20- 50 Mesh 1,36 - 0,670 mm
FFFFg_40 - 100 Mesh 0,42 - 0,15 mm

B.L.E. · April 8, 2018, 08:25 AM

You bought potassium?

Potassium is a silver colored soft metal that reacts explosively with water, it has to be stored under oil and handled with rubber gloves or tongs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqMN3y8k9So

ThomasT · April 8, 2018, 10:31 AM

I found coffee mills and a double 3lb ball mill on Ebay. Should cost around $75 for both. Now I just need to get a powder compressor to make the pucks so they can be corned.

ThomasT · April 8, 2018, 10:35 AM

Sure Shot I have two large strainers and both FFG and FFFG went through them. I have one more fine screen that I think will work for letting the dust through while catching the bigger stuff. I didn't know we had so many strainers.

ThomasT · April 8, 2018, 04:00 PM

I found two strainers that will let 3F through but not 2F. That should do it. Close enough anyway.

ClemBert · April 11, 2018, 09:18 AM

Goex $456 delivered.

Jack's (made by Goex) $375

Jack's Powder Keg

Wow, prices have really gone up. It's been a while since I ordered from Jack's but it used to be $315 for Goex brand.

ThomasT · April 11, 2018, 03:16 PM

That $456 for 25 pounds of Goex is right in line with what Powder Inc is getting for 25 pounds. Except powderInc you can mix grades in the order. Jacks says no mixed orders. But thanks for the link. I had never heard of them.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · April 11, 2018, 03:26 PM

There you go. You got the kernel sizing down pat as the grading to F size doesn't need to be exact.

As far as a pressing die. I'll P/m you the place where most of us home powder makers bought ours. The fellows Pressing Die is machined aluminum >so it is nice. Just a idea. You could ask the maker: How's about a machine mark on the outside wall to indicate correct volume of filling? i.e. so to not make your pucks too thick. Dried pucks are a bit difficult in their breaking up so to grind. Extra thick pucks wiil form a line of sweat on your brow.

ThomasT · April 11, 2018, 03:32 PM

Sure Shot yes send the PM with the sellers info on the press cylinder. I bet its the same one I saw used one of the Youtube videos i watched. Brush Hippy I think.

And he made the point that pucks made too thick were harder to deal with so I will make thin pucks. I bet I can squeeze them in my table vice. If not I have several 12 ton jacks and I guess I can do the compression using my truck for dead weight. Should be able to get 2500-3000 pounds. That oughta do it.

March 31, 2018, 01:15 PM	#1
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Goex vs. Schuetzen I am considering ordering powder. I looked on the Graf & Sons site and they have their own branded powder that some have said is repackaged Schuetzen powder. How does the Shuetzen compare to the standard Goex powder a far as power goes? Many years ago I bought several cans of Elephant brand powder from Grafs. It was cheap but seemed to work as well as the Goex if you didn't mind the stray small piece of wood once in a while. I still have a few cans of it. It was $6 a pound IIRC. I would to just order another 25 pounds from powder inc but the total price of around $460 is stopping me. And none of my friends wants to split a case. They have 2-5 pounds and think they have all they will need for the rest of their days. And before you say it yes I have considered making my own. But the deductible on my house is $1,800. For that much I can buy 100 pounds of powder.

March 31, 2018, 01:50 PM	#2
FrontierGander Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2009 Location: Boncarbo,Colorado Posts: 651	I like Goex a lot more. Schuetzen for me had been erratic and group sized opened up greatly. __________________ https://buckskinsbp.blogspot.com/

April 4, 2018, 05:22 AM	#8
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	I find Schuetzen and Goex to be nearly interchangeable. I compared velocities using a CED M2 Chronograph with my .36 caliber rifle and the shot to shot variation in velocity with either powder was greater than the difference between the the two powders. The Goex may have been slightly hotter but not by much. Sorry, I don't remember the exact numbers, but they were around 1500 fps using a 35 grain powder charge. __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

April 6, 2018, 11:15 PM	#10
drobs Senior Member Join Date: July 17, 2015 Location: South Central MO / Africa Posts: 1,111	All I shoot is Graf's. Can't beat the price. Seems accurate enough for me using it in my C&B revolvers and new Lyman GPR. I would like to do a mix and match order and try a little bit of everything from Graf's but financially it makes most sense to buy all Graf's Scheutzen. __________________ NRA Life Member

April 8, 2018, 08:25 AM	#18
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	You bought potassium? Potassium is a silver colored soft metal that reacts explosively with water, it has to be stored under oil and handled with rubber gloves or tongs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqMN3y8k9So __________________ Hanlon's Razor "Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."

March 31, 2018, 09:41 PM	#3
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Thats the information I was looking for. Plus I dug out my supply of powder to see what I have on hand and had no idea I was so well supplied. I have 16 pounds of 2F and 15 pounds of 3F plus 5 pounds of Pyrodex RS. So maybe I don't need any powder right now. I think I need to go shoot some. I haven't shot my BP rifles in several years but have the bug to do so now. I get on a BP kick ever once in a while and just have to go shoot. I have a Cabelas 54 caliber Hawken I bought at least 5 years ago I have still never fired. Its a very nice, clean rifle I bought to replace the first BP gun I ever bought and let my bud talk me out of. I killed my first Elk with that gun.

April 1, 2018, 02:42 PM	#4
44 Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2013 Posts: 584	Have been shooting Graf's and am satisfied with it. We just ordered last month. One of us wanted some of their reinactor powder it looks to have irregular granulation, but for noise and smoke the price is better.

April 2, 2018, 10:49 AM	#5
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I bought Schuetzen once when Goex was unavailable. I will never buy it again. I was experimenting with the Moose Wilkinson bullet, which has very small lube carrying capability. With Schuetzen, I could only get off about 3 shots before the bore started feeling crunchy on loading. With Goex, I can shoot pretty much indefinitely. I have recently tried Schuetzen caps though, and they are great. Cheaper than Dynamite Nobel, and more energetic.

April 2, 2018, 09:54 PM	#6
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	Graf's.

April 3, 2018, 09:58 AM	#7
Driftwood Johnson Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2014 Location: Land of the Pilgrims Posts: 2,033	Howdy My experience with Schuetzen has been different. I have been using it exclusively for all my CAS ammo for quite a few years now. I find less fouling with Schuetzen than with Goex. As far as velocity or power is concerned, I have no idea. I don't own a chrony so I have never done a side by side comparison. Don't really care, my Schuetzen loads knock down anything I point them at. Schuetzen uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex does, that is why it shoots cleaner. And yes, Graf powder is Schuetzen packaged in Graf's bottles. Both are made by Wano in Germany.

April 6, 2018, 08:46 PM	#9
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Thanks for the input guys. Sounds like there are more positive reviews than negative for the Grafs powder. That’s good. I still have 8 pounds of Elephant powder I bought from Grafs in the early and mid 1990s left. I never had any problem with it and couldn’t tell any loss of power from Goex. I think I paid around $6 a pound for it.

April 7, 2018, 08:27 AM	#11
TripleSe7en Junior Member Join Date: November 26, 2014 Posts: 12	I've used both. Goex is more target paper-consistent.

April 7, 2018, 09:58 AM	#12
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Good morning. Its to bad some of you fellows can't find Black in State and close by. <But that negative is a real initiative to start making your own. Staying on point. I have never tried Schuetzen or any other brand of B/P other than Gorex (red can) . Although all brands indeed are sold locally here. As far as amount of store bought on I have on hand. Maybe 3-4 one lb cans at most. But I recently noticed the tops of those cans are getting a bit rusty looking these days. I suppose when I started making my own powder about 3-4 years ago is the cause for that to happen? "My rifles are well used but those tins of store bought aren't." I don't make big batches of powder. Just enough B/P milled at a time for my shooting purpose. (1-1/4 lb per milling.) No B/P pistols do I own or shoot so I get by just fine with simple screened powder. (not corned) Although I have made both and we at home powder makers know corned powder is a whole lot less barrel fouling but requires a lot more tinkering with than screened. Fouling /dirty as all get out screened is. But no matter. A quick swapping after two three shots isn't a bother for me. If intending to make your own. Keep in mind. Homemade screened or corned requires more powder by volume measured to near equal a store bought's performance. Easiest way to say. If you shoot a 1/2 lb of store bought 2-FFg powder per outing. You'll need almost 3/4 lb of Homemade {corned 2-FF} to accommodate the same amount of shooting. So get to making your own. But watch what you say to those neighbors whom live close by> is a suggestion. When asked what your up too? (noise a ball mill produces.)

April 7, 2018, 10:18 AM	#13
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I tried making BP many years ago. But I did everything wrong that could be done wrong. There was no internet or youtube videos to watch. I didn't mill it but I did try mashing it in a bowl with a wood dowel. I didn't grind my potasium into dust. Just mixed it a little wet and let it dry. It wasn't black. It was grey. Made a great fuse but crap for powder. Now that I know more about it I may buy a pound of stump remover and give it a go. Hopefully I am going shooting tomorrow and I am going to cut some limbs from the willow trees around my buds pond and make some decent charcoal. In a couple of months from now if I am not posting here anymore you can assume something went terribly wrong.

April 7, 2018, 10:43 AM	#14
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I just found this. Five pounds of potasium for $17.77 with free shipping. I ordered 10 pounds. If I can't make a workable powder I can always add it to my tomato plants. http://www.seedranch.com/Potassium-N...3-powder-5.htm

April 7, 2018, 02:11 PM	#15
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Well actually potassium is better suited for fruit trees than tomato plants. Even so you purchased a dandy nitrate for the purpose. (little to no additives_that's a good thing.)

April 8, 2018, 12:20 AM	#17
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	Those that make corned 3-FFF many have bought-en two sizes of kitchen strainers/seive for the sizing purpose from their local walmart. 2-FF requires a bit larger mesh opening. Which I found and purchased from my local Grainger supply. Keep in mind I screed /press my water dampened meal powder thru a screen >to size. __Not grind then shake it thru two different sizes of kitchen strainers. As done with corned powder. BLACK POWDER GALVANIZED SCREEN SIZE TO SCREED MEAL POWDER THRU. Fg. 12 - 16 Mesh 1,68 - 1,19 mm FFg. 16 - 30 Mesh 1,19 - 0,60 mm FFFg. 20 - 50 Mesh 0,84 - 0,30 mm FFFFg. 40 - 100 Mesh 0,42 - 0,15 mm Screens: No.5__Fg__12 - 16 Mesh 1,60 - 1,2 mm No.4 __FFG_16 - 30 Mesh 1,36 - 0,9 mm No.3__FFFg_20- 50 Mesh 1,36 - 0,670 mm FFFFg_40 - 100 Mesh 0,42 - 0,15 mm

April 8, 2018, 10:31 AM	#19
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I found coffee mills and a double 3lb ball mill on Ebay. Should cost around $75 for both. Now I just need to get a powder compressor to make the pucks so they can be corned. Last edited by ThomasT; April 8, 2018 at 11:37 AM.

April 8, 2018, 10:35 AM	#20
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Sure Shot I have two large strainers and both FFG and FFFG went through them. I have one more fine screen that I think will work for letting the dust through while catching the bigger stuff. I didn't know we had so many strainers.

April 8, 2018, 04:00 PM	#21
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I found two strainers that will let 3F through but not 2F. That should do it. Close enough anyway.

April 11, 2018, 09:18 AM	#22
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	Goex $456 delivered. Jack's (made by Goex) $375 Jack's Powder Keg Wow, prices have really gone up. It's been a while since I ordered from Jack's but it used to be $315 for Goex brand.

April 11, 2018, 03:16 PM	#23
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	That $456 for 25 pounds of Goex is right in line with what Powder Inc is getting for 25 pounds. Except powderInc you can mix grades in the order. Jacks says no mixed orders. But thanks for the link. I had never heard of them.

April 11, 2018, 03:26 PM	#24
Sure Shot Mc Gee Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2012 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,876	There you go. You got the kernel sizing down pat as the grading to F size doesn't need to be exact. As far as a pressing die. I'll P/m you the place where most of us home powder makers bought ours. The fellows Pressing Die is machined aluminum >so it is nice. Just a idea. You could ask the maker: How's about a machine mark on the outside wall to indicate correct volume of filling? i.e. so to not make your pucks too thick. Dried pucks are a bit difficult in their breaking up so to grind. Extra thick pucks wiil form a line of sweat on your brow.

April 11, 2018, 03:32 PM	#25
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Sure Shot yes send the PM with the sellers info on the press cylinder. I bet its the same one I saw used one of the Youtube videos i watched. Brush Hippy I think. And he made the point that pucks made too thick were harder to deal with so I will make thin pucks. I bet I can squeeze them in my table vice. If not I have several 12 ton jacks and I guess I can do the compression using my truck for dead weight. Should be able to get 2500-3000 pounds. That oughta do it.