A public apology to Massad Ayoob.

TexasSeaRay · March 8, 2008, 01:06 PM

A few days ago, I partook in a discussion involving the issue of handloads/reloads and their legal defensibility in the event that they should ever have to be used in an actual self-defense shooting.

Another poster mentioned Mas Ayoob's testimony and views in regards to this issue. I stated that "I had no use for (Mr.) Ayoob's views because of some BS he pulled on a sister agency during a trial."

Mr. Ayoob PM'd me and inquired as to the nature of the event. I will not disclose the event--Mr. Ayoob can if he so desires, but I would suspect that can of worms is best left in the history pile.

After a polite and professional discussion, Mr. Ayoob disclosed his nature of involvement in this case. His version of events parallels to a "T" the recollections of a longtime friend, going all the way to basic training, who I talked with this morning and who is still an FBI agent today.

I very much regret allowing myself to believe the innuendo and gossip that is often times all too prevelant in the law enforcement community rather than seeking the facts, as every person who has ever pinned on a badge and sworn the oath was trained to do.

This case and Mr. Ayoob's involvement in it was the only issue I had brief with regarding Mas Ayoob. I have always respected his dedication to the shooter, the training and safety and preparedness of our law enforcement community, and his professionalism in dealing with criticism.

And while I had disagreement with Mr. Ayoob because of my erroneous perception, it did not stop me from recommending his readings and seminars to those who I felt would benefit from partaking in them.

Mr. Ayoob, I am appreciative and grateful for you taking the time to visit with me on this issue--which, as you know better than anyone, goes back almost thirty years. I have long since left the business, but this is a nice thorn that I can now remove from my backside. I sincerely apologize for offering an opinion not based in firsthand knowledge, but rather in squadroom bitch sessions. Your professional, polite and patient explanation of your involvement has earned my respect. I wish you all the best, and thank you for all you've done for our community.

With best regards,

Jeff

Mas Ayoob · March 8, 2008, 02:14 PM

Apology respectfully accepted, Jeff.

You're a man.

Best,
Mas

FM12 · March 8, 2008, 10:53 PM

I've learned a great deal from Mas Ayoob's books, articles and videos over the years.

Glad the record is set straight.

orionengnr · March 8, 2008, 11:33 PM

From what I've seen of Mr Ayoob's participation on this and other forums, he is an upright and honorable man, prone to forthright discussion without any need for urination contests or chest-pounding...

Just another reason I really enjoy TFL and THR.

akr · March 9, 2008, 12:03 AM

I am a fan of Massad Ayoob. When he talks, I pay attention.

FM12 · March 9, 2008, 12:06 AM

TexasSeaRay is no slouch when it comes to advice either. He's not a WWW/forum Ninja, He's been there and done that, way more than most of us.

This is a great place to learn. Thanks to all of you who have helped me.

FM12

Diamondback · March 9, 2008, 12:40 AM

It's my experience that the only sure way to help prevent the next error in judgment is to rectify the last with an apology. Well done, TexasSeaRay, well done !

- regards

Freakdaddy · March 9, 2008, 06:21 AM

Jeff,

It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong and an even bigger man to do it publicly. Well done.

Kenpo · March 9, 2008, 10:59 AM

Well done, both of you. A fine example to all of a sincere apology, and a gracious acceptance.

Charles S · March 9, 2008, 12:41 PM

Quote:

It's my experience that the only sure way to help prevent the next error in judgment is to rectify the last with an apology. Well done, TexasSeaRay, well done !

Agreed.

fastbolt · March 9, 2008, 12:51 PM

When men resolve a perceived difference in the manner of gentlemen it serves as an example to us all, and makes the world just that much better of a place in which to live ...

jwxspoon · March 9, 2008, 03:35 PM

Well said and handled.

jw

James K · March 9, 2008, 06:39 PM

I wish all those who have attacked Mr. Ayoob were so willing to admit error.

On several occasions, I have quoted Mr. Ayoob, or expressed agreement with his views, and have been flamed for daring to even mention his name. Doesn't bother me, but I have always wondered how he likes getting blasted by some of those id..., sorry, people of lesser experience.

Jim

Scattergun Bob · March 9, 2008, 07:33 PM

Jeff,

Thanks a lot for your post. I have over the years read most of what Mas had written. I sure don't need to defend him, what is important is that you are correct about LE and gossip. Mas is what he is, a dedicated trainer and a scholar in the self defence business. Many question that he is a reserve or that he hasn't taken a life. My response is always the same, "well, Ed McGivern never killed anyone, but would you like to shoot against him!" To the uninformed this usually goes over their heads.

I judge all classes, training and trainers by one standard, "will what I am learning help me win the next fight."

I will personally prove that what I am learning works for me.

I understand that no one but myself will be there to extract my butt from a situation where what I learned does not work.

And finally, IF IT SEEMS STUPID, BUT IT WORKS, IT ISN'T STUPID USE IT!

akr · March 9, 2008, 09:19 PM

Jim Keenan---

I believe those that disagree with Mr. Ayoob in a rude way are probably a little bit jealous of his knowledge.

strick909 · March 9, 2008, 09:34 PM

I love to read a thread like this. As I have recently found myself on the side of a "virtual" beatdown for incorrect information posted about me and my company, it gives me faith in the on-line community when someone can admit a mistake and the other party will happily accept the apology!

I think it is pretty ridiculous to think that we will agree with everything Mas (or any other professional for that matter) says about every issue or situation. I do honestly believe that he has our community's best interests at heart.

Musketeer · March 9, 2008, 10:36 PM

TexasSeaRay, it is a post like yours which makes me realize the caliber of people we have here. It never tastes good to have to eat one's own words, I know I have done so, and volunteering to do so when you know it is right says more about your character than any amount of posts on the proper bullet or firearm.

FrontSight · March 9, 2008, 10:45 PM

Awwww, shucks...I was hoping to see a showdown at High Noon!!

Just kidding, glad you guys worked it out. Man, no one gets blamed more than me for stuff that I didn't do, and it sucks, but I have just learned to accept it, but I know how bad it sux.

Laserlips · March 10, 2008, 04:12 PM

Well,

That's about as perfect a resolution to a misunderstanding I've ever read...

Jesse

Spenser · March 11, 2008, 09:36 AM

That really showed a lot of character. Thanks for being a gentleman. It's great to see little reminders pop up in one's daily life about how we should conduct ourselves. Not just on an internet forum, but life in general.

It's a great example for everyone.

buzz_knox · March 11, 2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

That really showed a lot of character. Thanks for being a gentleman. It's great to see little reminders pop up in one's daily life about how we should conduct ourselves. Not just on an internet forum, but life in general.

It's a great example for everyone.

I agree wholeheartedly. I also believes this incident is an example of how the internet allows incredible opportunities for lies to be spread (even unintentionally) but also for the truth to be told.

Most of the character assassinations that have taken the place for debate these days are based on these kind of half-truths or outright lies. Few have such dignified endings.

Laserlips · March 11, 2008, 10:30 AM

Crap..

I like the apology AND the acceptance of that apology so much I think I'll just type those posts out and duct tape them to the top of my monitor..

Seems I spend an inordinate amount of time apologizing and a much lesser time accepting apology's online so it'll make it real easy from here on out..

I'll just look up at the top of the monitor and type out whichever response is appropriate...

jesse

akr · March 21, 2008, 10:07 AM

He he he

Inspector3711 · March 21, 2008, 11:04 AM

Create a word document that you always leave open... Copy and paste I'm Sorry's all over the place!! Yuk yuk yuk

Johnc · March 21, 2008, 11:18 AM

Posts like this one separate this forum from the others. I prefer to think of this as a gentleman's forum. This was an applaudable exercise in professionalism.

March 8, 2008, 01:06 PM	#1
TexasSeaRay Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 810	A public apology to Massad Ayoob. A few days ago, I partook in a discussion involving the issue of handloads/reloads and their legal defensibility in the event that they should ever have to be used in an actual self-defense shooting. Another poster mentioned Mas Ayoob's testimony and views in regards to this issue. I stated that "I had no use for (Mr.) Ayoob's views because of some BS he pulled on a sister agency during a trial." Mr. Ayoob PM'd me and inquired as to the nature of the event. I will not disclose the event--Mr. Ayoob can if he so desires, but I would suspect that can of worms is best left in the history pile. After a polite and professional discussion, Mr. Ayoob disclosed his nature of involvement in this case. His version of events parallels to a "T" the recollections of a longtime friend, going all the way to basic training, who I talked with this morning and who is still an FBI agent today. I very much regret allowing myself to believe the innuendo and gossip that is often times all too prevelant in the law enforcement community rather than seeking the facts, as every person who has ever pinned on a badge and sworn the oath was trained to do. This case and Mr. Ayoob's involvement in it was the only issue I had brief with regarding Mas Ayoob. I have always respected his dedication to the shooter, the training and safety and preparedness of our law enforcement community, and his professionalism in dealing with criticism. And while I had disagreement with Mr. Ayoob because of my erroneous perception, it did not stop me from recommending his readings and seminars to those who I felt would benefit from partaking in them. Mr. Ayoob, I am appreciative and grateful for you taking the time to visit with me on this issue--which, as you know better than anyone, goes back almost thirty years. I have long since left the business, but this is a nice thorn that I can now remove from my backside. I sincerely apologize for offering an opinion not based in firsthand knowledge, but rather in squadroom bitch sessions. Your professional, polite and patient explanation of your involvement has earned my respect. I wish you all the best, and thank you for all you've done for our community. With best regards, Jeff __________________ If every single gun owner belonged to the NRA as well as their respective state rifle/gun association, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. So to those of you who are members of neither, thanks for nothing. Last edited by TexasSeaRay; March 8, 2008 at 02:05 PM.

March 9, 2008, 12:03 AM	#5
akr Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,379	I am a fan of Massad Ayoob. When he talks, I pay attention. __________________ Http://www.nationalgunforum.com NRA Lifetime Member

March 9, 2008, 12:51 PM	#11
fastbolt Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2002 Location: northern CA for a little while longer Posts: 1,931	When men resolve a perceived difference in the manner of gentlemen it serves as an example to us all, and makes the world just that much better of a place in which to live ... __________________ Retired LE - firearms instructor & armorer

March 9, 2008, 03:35 PM	#12
jwxspoon Member Join Date: November 14, 2007 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 68	Well said and handled. jw __________________ My gun pr0n: http://picasaweb.google.com/jwxspoon/GunPhotos

March 9, 2008, 07:33 PM	#14
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	Mas and having to defend himself Jeff, Thanks a lot for your post. I have over the years read most of what Mas had written. I sure don't need to defend him, what is important is that you are correct about LE and gossip. Mas is what he is, a dedicated trainer and a scholar in the self defence business. Many question that he is a reserve or that he hasn't taken a life. My response is always the same, "well, Ed McGivern never killed anyone, but would you like to shoot against him!" To the uninformed this usually goes over their heads. I judge all classes, training and trainers by one standard, "will what I am learning help me win the next fight." I will personally prove that what I am learning works for me. I understand that no one but myself will be there to extract my butt from a situation where what I learned does not work. And finally, IF IT SEEMS STUPID, BUT IT WORKS, IT ISN'T STUPID USE IT! __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

March 8, 2008, 02:14 PM	#2
Mas Ayoob Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2005 Posts: 249	Apology respectfully accepted, Jeff. You're a man. Best, Mas

March 8, 2008, 10:53 PM	#3
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	I've learned a great deal from Mas Ayoob's books, articles and videos over the years. Glad the record is set straight.

March 8, 2008, 11:33 PM	#4
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,176	From what I've seen of Mr Ayoob's participation on this and other forums, he is an upright and honorable man, prone to forthright discussion without any need for urination contests or chest-pounding... Just another reason I really enjoy TFL and THR.

March 9, 2008, 12:06 AM	#6
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	TexasSeaRay is no slouch when it comes to advice either. He's not a WWW/forum Ninja, He's been there and done that, way more than most of us. This is a great place to learn. Thanks to all of you who have helped me. FM12

March 9, 2008, 12:40 AM	#7
Diamondback Member Join Date: May 20, 2004 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 91	It's my experience that the only sure way to help prevent the next error in judgment is to rectify the last with an apology. Well done, TexasSeaRay, well done ! - regards

March 9, 2008, 06:21 AM	#8
Freakdaddy Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2006 Posts: 442	Jeff, It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong and an even bigger man to do it publicly. Well done.

March 9, 2008, 10:59 AM	#9
Kenpo Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Posts: 46	Well done, both of you. A fine example to all of a sincere apology, and a gracious acceptance.

March 9, 2008, 06:39 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I wish all those who have attacked Mr. Ayoob were so willing to admit error. On several occasions, I have quoted Mr. Ayoob, or expressed agreement with his views, and have been flamed for daring to even mention his name. Doesn't bother me, but I have always wondered how he likes getting blasted by some of those id..., sorry, people of lesser experience. Jim

March 9, 2008, 09:19 PM	#15
akr Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,379	Jim Keenan--- I believe those that disagree with Mr. Ayoob in a rude way are probably a little bit jealous of his knowledge. __________________ Http://www.nationalgunforum.com NRA Lifetime Member

March 9, 2008, 09:34 PM	#16
strick909 Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 20	I love to read a thread like this. As I have recently found myself on the side of a "virtual" beatdown for incorrect information posted about me and my company, it gives me faith in the on-line community when someone can admit a mistake and the other party will happily accept the apology! I think it is pretty ridiculous to think that we will agree with everything Mas (or any other professional for that matter) says about every issue or situation. I do honestly believe that he has our community's best interests at heart. __________________ Feed your addiction at http://www.TalonArms.com

March 9, 2008, 10:36 PM	#17
Musketeer Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2005 Posts: 3,733	TexasSeaRay, it is a post like yours which makes me realize the caliber of people we have here. It never tastes good to have to eat one's own words, I know I have done so, and volunteering to do so when you know it is right says more about your character than any amount of posts on the proper bullet or firearm. __________________ "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Thomas Jefferson "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin Last edited by Musketeer; March 10, 2008 at 08:07 AM.

March 9, 2008, 10:45 PM	#18
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	Awwww, shucks...I was hoping to see a showdown at High Noon!! Just kidding, glad you guys worked it out. Man, no one gets blamed more than me for stuff that I didn't do, and it sucks, but I have just learned to accept it, but I know how bad it sux. __________________ To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw

March 10, 2008, 04:12 PM	#19
Laserlips Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 627	Well, That's about as perfect a resolution to a misunderstanding I've ever read... Jesse __________________ "Laus Deo"

March 11, 2008, 09:36 AM	#20
Spenser Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 408	That really showed a lot of character. Thanks for being a gentleman. It's great to see little reminders pop up in one's daily life about how we should conduct ourselves. Not just on an internet forum, but life in general. It's a great example for everyone.

March 11, 2008, 10:30 AM	#22
Laserlips Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2004 Location: Georgia Posts: 627	Crap.. I like the apology AND the acceptance of that apology so much I think I'll just type those posts out and duct tape them to the top of my monitor.. Seems I spend an inordinate amount of time apologizing and a much lesser time accepting apology's online so it'll make it real easy from here on out.. I'll just look up at the top of the monitor and type out whichever response is appropriate... jesse __________________ "Laus Deo"

March 21, 2008, 10:07 AM	#23
akr Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,379	He he he __________________ Http://www.nationalgunforum.com NRA Lifetime Member

March 21, 2008, 11:04 AM	#24
Inspector3711 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2008 Location: Puget Sound Washington Posts: 1,553	Create a word document that you always leave open... Copy and paste I'm Sorry's all over the place!! Yuk yuk yuk __________________ "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Llama (5/15/01, The Seattle Times) "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell

March 21, 2008, 11:18 AM	#25
Johnc Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2006 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 566	Posts like this one separate this forum from the others. I prefer to think of this as a gentleman's forum. This was an applaudable exercise in professionalism. __________________ http://www.longislandfirearms.com http://www.liffreedomfund.org/