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Old July 21, 2018, 09:41 AM   #1
cw308
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Lyman Bore scope

Is there a example to show carbon , copper , fire cracking and good , worn and shot out rifling . Never used a scope before , wish I had one when the barrel was brand new to compare . The scope should be here by Tuesday.
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Old July 21, 2018, 12:10 PM   #2
Dufus
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Here are a couple of pictures of copper in a Savage barrel.



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Old July 21, 2018, 01:54 PM   #3
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I took your advice , ordered the Lyman . This Sundays a wash out , rain and wind . The scope is supposed to arrive on Tuesday will check what my cleaned barrel looks like and how well I clean. Will do some tests on different cleaners . Never iused JB Compound an Kroil oil on this SS match barrel but I did use it often on the stock Remington LTR barrel , worked well .

The gunsmith that installed the match barrel recommend KG -1 first for carbon then 12 for copper . Stayed with that for quite awhile , the of course tried Ballistol an finished with Hoppes#9 that when all the talk on CLR , ran a patch up an down in what I thought was a clean barrel and the patch came out brown . Will see Tuesday . I'll let you know.

Chris
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Old July 22, 2018, 12:57 PM   #4
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Short answer is its a great tool to see how good your cleaning is.

Having seen the result via a Hawkeye for Carbon Killer 2000 (Ck2k in my shorthand) and Bore Tech Eliminator (little or no odor and non haz) I would suggest trying those products! (please note this is not just my opinion, Unclenick for whom I have the utmost respect also weighs in on these two)

http://www.slip2000.com/blog/precisi...ting-magazine/

This is the thread for more details. Copper and Carbon, most of my crud is carbon.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=596575

I have the scope, asked the same question, but the best data was just looking at a number of barrels from really shot (1920s x 1903) to new barrels.

In the end, I don't think the Lyman has the delineation to give you a definitive condition on wear and tear though it gives you some idea.

What I think really matters in that wear and tear regard is the throat erosion and while a Hawkey may show that good enough to tell, I don't think the Ly,an will. What will is seat a bullet in an sized and empty case (or the Hornady tool) and see how long the COAL really is.

For 30-06 I have a tool called a TE/MW (Throat Erosion Muzzle Wear). TE being the one that is definitive for numbers of shots from what I can tell.)

So, I have looked at WWI barrels from around 6 Model of 1917s, the old 1920 06, CZ x 22, Savage, Shilon and Excel Barrels.

The bore condition really means zip. Savage is very rough, as are the Model of 1917s. The 1903 is understandably very pitted (and like 5 on the TE gauge so about 2/3 of the way to military gone) that 1903 has taken far more game than I can figure out from my Step Dads fathers history as well as something like 6 brown Bears in AK (it was a Target rifle for someone that looks to have moved on when it started to loose accuracy)

The Exell barrel is pretty rough, the Shilen and the Lothar Walther are much better finished.

The Shilen shoots the best but its a very good barrel and the finish does not seem to matter at all.

I have seen some of the Hammer Forged barrels (most if not all the rest are button rifled - have to see about the 1917s) . Hammer forged are smooth as silk, but not noted for accuracy.

The Lyman can somewhat confirm status but not establish it in that you can see bits and pieces of broken lands etc in the 1903.

The 1917s don't look all that great either, but they shoot fine.
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Old July 22, 2018, 05:05 PM   #5
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Im going to give Bore Tech Eliminator a try . Would love to get rid of most of the cleaners on my shelf .
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Old July 22, 2018, 08:17 PM   #6
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RC20: you make it apparent that you have not used a Lyman Bore scope.

I have compared the Hawkeye and the Lyman. Although the Hawkeye is the Cadillac, I see nothing wrong with the Lyman unit. If you are going on heresay and passing judgment, then you do so unjustly.

The Lyman possesses the resolution to detect the conditions that you describe such as throat erosion etc.
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Old July 22, 2018, 09:53 PM   #7
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Im sure what I read an videos on line the Lyman scope will do what In looking for just fine .
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Old July 23, 2018, 01:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
RC20: you make it apparent that you have not used a Lyman Bore scope.
Sorry to bust a bubble but I own two (One broke and they sent me a second one)

I have not used a Hawkeye, I have seen the pictures and they are sharper

I will defer to your ability to read throat erosion. I can't.

How about some pictures?

CW308: If your bore is rought you will probably replate. As time goes by its less.

I haven't had that issue with my new guns, cleaning out old ones has been a combo of Bore Tech and the CK2k. Once I hit a hard layer of carbon then out comes the CK2k.

What looked hazed etc come out good if they have not been shot exsevively.

The 1903 has been shot and shot a lot.
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Old July 23, 2018, 06:27 PM   #9
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The barrel on my Rem 700 is a match barrel , when at the range I give it a quick cleaning with either wipe out - patch out or Ballistol cleans up in four patches . When I get home I take my time letteng the solvents do the job soaking in . I'm hoping my barrel is in good shape , I baby my rifle pretty much , taking time between shots , shooting 30 rounds each range trip , two hours on the average . I I'm looking for in the scope is to see the shape of the leade area , lands and any build up in fouling . The Hawkeye is the top of the line , the Lyman is better the just looking down the barrel . I'll use it once a week I'm sure but the first time I'll look in the barrel l will take time checking every nook an cranny . After that not much will happen week to week . Is just an added step in my weekly clean . Looking foward to it . Tuesday it should be here , like a kid at Christmas . Be Well

Chris
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Old July 23, 2018, 06:41 PM   #10
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Depends on who makes the barrel. The button rifles can be really rough (Savage very much so, they don't lap at all)

Ex-Caliber is fairly rough. Shilen and Lother Walther are lapped but you can still see chatter marks.

I am delighted with the Lyman. I never though I could afford a boroscope. But other than the cleaning regimene, I can't see that much difference. Or to put it another way, I would make zero prediction on good from bad by appearance. The 1903 is poor looking, but we have shot some good groups with it. Go figure.

The Model of 1917s look like a horror movie but they shoot fine.

My brother cursed me when he got his after I told him how low cost they were.

All his bright shiny barrels looked pretty bad.

But looks vs performance are two different things. Look at as many as you can beg, borrow or steel.

Remington's are very smooth, (OEM) but those are hammer forged vs a button rifled.

I find if I clean the gun at the range with the CK2k, none is needed at home and the warm barrel accelerate things so its a bit quicker.

Our family 270 was well cleaned but badly carboned up as none of the cleaners like Hoppes really gets that out. I ran the Hoppes Kroil thing and that does not do it either.

It took some work as the 270 has been shot from the late 50s to today. Got it cleaned though. 5 shots at under 1 MOA is darned good for a hunting rifle.

One of these days I will get some factory and see how it does. Before it was as wild as 2.5 inches. For the good loads I built for it, I checked the throat and Sako made theirs very long for some reason so I just seated them long. More like for ELD bullets being used these days.

The 270 had no copper of any consequence, just a lot of carbon.
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Old July 23, 2018, 07:12 PM   #11
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The barrel is a Rock Creek M24 with 5R rifling . I also got a Rock Island Springfield 1903 , my Late Uncle brought it back from the Korean War , brand new barrel an action wrapped in paper and masking tape . Cost me 300+ for parts to turn it into a rifle . Shot clover leaf groups . Let my Son in Law use it on his first deer hunt . First time out he got a 8 pointer , go figure . He loved the rifle so much I gave it to him . It would have stayed in the safe , better he shoot it . Hope the inside of my barrel looks like glass . I'll see tomorrow .

Chris

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Old July 24, 2018, 02:31 PM   #12
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I hope you are not disappointed. Even lapped barrels have some marks in them. I think the WWI barrels are cut rifled. Not lapped of course. Very rough. Let me know, interested.

As noted my brother was shocked (he had some McGowan barrel rifles) - those are button rifled.

They all shoot just fine!
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Old July 24, 2018, 03:56 PM   #13
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Just received the scope , once I got the knack of positioning the wand it was pretty simple , my barrel was pretty clean , when inspecting the barrel I found a wishbone mark in the grove area about 12" down from the muzzle . I ran a patch with JB Compound , dry patched out , barrel shines but the gouge on the grove area is still there .The rest of the barrel was perfect , also very slight fire cracking at the start of the rifling . Wish it didn't have the gouge mark , most likely it was there from the start , wish I had the scope when it was new .

Pretty simple to use , worth the money $ 175 door to door
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Old July 24, 2018, 10:51 PM   #14
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Remember: it also works on handguns.
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Old July 25, 2018, 07:28 AM   #15
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I will use it on all my guns , it's a fun tool . Once you get the knack of moving the wand . I have on chatter marks but that mark on the grove area bothered me . Want to see what the barrel looks like after firing , will run a dry patch to remove the loose fouling , want to see if any copper is being stripped off the bullet by that score in the barrel .

I still saw some carbon along the land in some areas , ran a patch with JB Compound up an down a few times , that cleaned it up and put a shine on the barrel . First time I used it on this barrel . My be part of my cleaning regiment .

Chris
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Old July 25, 2018, 04:59 PM   #16
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Well, like RC has been saying, you can't REALLY clean a barrel without one.

I have been using bore scopes for a few years now, and I agree that you really don't know what is in the tube unless you can see inside there close up.
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Old July 25, 2018, 06:29 PM   #17
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I never thought it would have a gouge half way down the barrel , I forgot to see how long it is , I could tell by the measurement lines on the wond , when looking at in on the screen it looks like it's a inch an a half long but now that I think of it it's probably alittle over 1/8 . Still wish it wasn't there .

I would think if it happened in forming the rifling , it would be all around that area , could it be a defect in the steel . I'm very careful when running a patch , when clearing the barrel I will remove the jag to protect the crown . I use a Parker Hale jag , the patch wraps around the jag like a mop . For the life of me l can't figure out how it happened . What's Your thoughts .
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Old July 26, 2018, 11:02 AM   #18
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Hard to say without seeing it.

BUT, fact remains that it shoots great for you, so it has no effect.

The only good barrel that you will see is a match grade barrel that has been properly lapped. Otherwise, they will all have some sort of imperfections to the finish.
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Old July 26, 2018, 07:52 PM   #19
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CW308:

I don't say this with any delight, but I did warn you.

What you are trying to do is equate clean and smooth with shooting right and its got no correlation.

I have yet to see a barrel that impressed me other than a hammer forged for smooth, and it only impressed me because of how smooth it was not because it shot well

I have two high quality button rifled barrels that obviously were lapped and they STILL are not smooth, just smoother.

Button rifles just looked bad, they shoot great. Cut riffles look bad and shoot great (modern ones are hand lapped and I don't have one of those so maybe they are as smooth as a baby bottom though I doubt it).

Its almost 100% certain yours came with the so called flaw. It will shoot better than we can.

If you don't want to see things in barrels you should not use a boro scope (hammer forged aside)


There are many cases in machinery where a degree or rough is fine or it won't work right.

You don't wast time finishing something to make it look good on machinery (exterior aside)

Take a picture of the flaw, contact Rock Creek and see what they say.

We probably can't make bets, but I will hang it out and state they will say, no worries mate.
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Old July 27, 2018, 05:56 AM   #20
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I'm sure it was there from the start , agree , the barrel even with the flaw shoots better then I . The bore scope is a nice tool to have anyway. I have a CZ 452 Varmint in 22lr. No problems with the barrel the rifle is a tack driver , with the scope could see how different the barrel steel is , rougher on the CZ. Thanks for all your help .

Chris
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Old July 27, 2018, 11:29 AM   #21
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You are welcome.

My brother hated me for a while before he got over it.

He thought his barrels would be wonderfully smooth (grin)

I have long wanted a boro scope and while they have other uses, just confirming how well my cleaning is (or was not) working has been the biggest day in day out benefit.
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