How Much Consideration do you give average people in your training?

[stonewall50]

So a game I play with my girlfriend and family is the what if game. I highly recommend it to others. We always try to play IN the area we are in too. Grocery store, dog park, gas station, etc ad Nauseum. So today I was asked what would I do regarding other people if a shooter starter randomly shooting people in the front of the grocery store while I was in the back.

I found myself wondering how I would treat others and what the course of action would be? I want to get my gun into play, but I don't know if I want to get shot by another panicked concealed carrier either. I also have to consider the lives of others and making sure THEY know what to do. So here it is:

I think I would yell "police" even though I am not a cop. I would also start trying to direct people to the rear exits. The question is: my girlfriend. I'm torn. Do I make her leave without me, leaving my security to the unknown outside? I certainly won't be advancing on a threat with her in tow. But I think I would want her to take cover as I try to evacuate people and move towards a shooter.

So keeping in mind my scenario that was proposed to me...and how much do you consider the lives of others when you play the "what if game" in public?

[shafter]

Playing out scenarios in your mind is very useful. Having a plan in place helps prevent panic when a crisis occurs.

That said, don't identify yourself as a police if you aren't. I don't see a situation where that would be in your benefit.

If you and your girlfriend are together then I'd recommend leaving out a back door if possible. If you can't leave then barricade yourself as best you can and be prepared to shoot if necessary.

It gets much more complicated if you guys are split up. If I was in your place I would want to find her. A better course of action would be to have a plan set up where you both escape the building if possible. Even better make sure she has a gun and is trained with it.

You have absolutely no obligation to risk your safety for people who made no efforts to protect themselves (weapon, training, awareness etc). Look after you and your own.

Another consideration is friendly fire. People won't know if you are the hero or the villain. You might get shot.

As a police officer I don't have a choice. I have to go to the gunfire, but that is usually not the best course of action for the gun carrying public.

[thump_rrr]

I don't live in an area with CCW but I'll give my opinion just the same.

You carry for the protection of yourself and your loved ones.
Your responsibility is to your loved ones.
If you have an opportunity to leave with your loved ones out the back door without encountering the armed assailant you take it.
If you have an opportunity to stop the assailant without putting yourself or your loved ones at additional risk go for it.
If you have to go through the assailant to get out then you do what you have to do.

Once again you responsibility is to your loved ones.
A dead hero is no help to his or her loved ones.

[g.willikers]

^^^For sure.
A carry license doesn't qualify anyone to act for the police.

[TailGator]

There are risks with any decision you make. You seem to have decided that you would advance on the shooter at some point. What if there is more than one and you don't realize it. It has happened. What if the person you presume to be a malevolent shooter is an undercover LEO? Or another licensed CCW carrier? On the other hand, if you run out the back, or send others out the back, are you certain that there isn't a BG waiting in ambush there? There was an incident recently in which a person with a handgun drove victims towards an accomplice with a rifle.

The real answer is that there are too many variables to give any pat answer. Many factors could vary, and your understanding of the situation and its factors could be incomplete. The only safe thing to say is that you need to be thinking really hard in situations like that and not rush into a situation you regret.

[kraigwy]

My Opinion:

You have three courses of action:

Flee, Hunker Down, Fight

Fee: If at all possible, book, get out and call it in.

Hunker down: Or hide. For example duck into the back room of a store. Most have cameras watching the store for shop lifers and such. Hunkering down in the back room you might be able to watch to see if the bandit is a treat or not to you safety spot.

Fight: By this I don't mean go after the attacker, but as in two, if your hiding spot is targeted you need to be ready to fight.

There is a huge threat, if you fight, to be targeted by first responders or other CCW people.

In fighting, I believe it best to remain hidden, yet at an instants notice, be able to produce your weapon to protect yourself OR, instantly be able to produce EMPTY HANDS if a first responder enters your safe zone.

I spent 20 years in LE, I know for a fact cops like to see empty hands.

I teach above. I've instilled it in my kids. Sometimes kids listen.

Remember the Friday before the Conn. school shooting. The active shooter at the Clackamas Town Center. Below its a photo taken of people, including my daughter, (lower left in black jacket) who hunkered down it the back room of a pet store. These people were able to monitor the store and take action if the shooter entered or non-action if a first responded entered to clear the store (the later is what occurred).



As you can see, the people are watching the store via store monitor. I don't recall an active shooter in such a setting taking the time to check the back rooms of all the stores in the mall. Yet if these people decided to take their CC weapon and search for the shooter, more then likely they would have created a more dangerous situation, to themselves or others.

Its my opinion that citizens for the most part, would put themselves in more danger by going after the shooter, not only from the shooter but responding LE Officers.

Others may have different opinions, but I feel better that my daughter decided to pay attention to what her daddy told her. Hide but be ready in case the shooter appears OR LE arrives to clear the back rooms.

[T. O'Heir]

Like kraigwy says, being shot by first responders would be far more likely than anything else.
"...I want to get my gun into play..." Suggests you may carrying for the wrong reason. You ain't in Dodge and you ain't Bill Hickok. You go looking for a BG and you're not in a defensive carry situation.
"...another panicked concealed carrier..." Suggests a lack of training.

[Nanuk]

My first responsibility is my family. I will get them to safety. Everyone has the same rights and opportunities I do. If they are unarmed and untrained it is their fault.

[SlvrDragon50]

I never thought of the other CCW situation.. but if you don't mind me extending the situation further...

What if we had much greater numbers of CCW out there, let's just say 50%. What are you going to do when half the people pull out their guns. How are people going to identify who is a shooter, especially considering how heterogeneous training is.

[motorhead0922]

In the scenario described, every shot fired probably means an innocent person seriously injured or murdered. I can't just hide with that happening.

I will get my wife to as safe a place as I can, then, with gun still concealed, I will go toward the shooter. If, and that's a big if, I can for sure tell what is going on and if I see innocent lives threatened, I will draw and fire.

[Moonglum]

In any situation my first choice is escape. My wife and I don't go out much anymore but when we do we try to stay close to an exit if at all possible. I would only fight if I had no other option.

I would never claim to be a police officer period.

I also wouldn't bother trying to direct other patrons because the odds of them even hearing me, let alone listening, are almost nil.

First I'd try to get myself and my wife out of where ever we're at.
If that isn't possible I'd try to get us in a defensible position behind some real, hard cover.

Under no circumstance would I go hunting the bad guy.

[AL45]

I have lived in a town of about 10,000 people my entire life and probably know about 75 percent of the citizens here. I would have a very difficult time "slipping out the back door" and leaving my friends and neighbors to fend for themselves. Fortunately, a large number of people here carry either concealed or open, and most of us know who is on the right side of the law around here, so any gunman here would probably be met by a barrage of bullets. Hopefully accurately placed.

[peggysue]

In my senior year my ability to fantasize is gone. I know I will never fly like Superman. Reality surrounds me.

[johnwilliamson062]

I'd walk out the back door and head straight to the closest burrito joint(utilizing my find the closest burrito android app). For all I know the person shooting up front IS the police.

If I witnessed the beginning of the shooting there would be two differences that MIGHT lead me to act:
1. I would have some idea what happened immediately proceeding the shooting, so a better idea of who was shooting and why.
2. If close enough to witness the event first hand, my life would be in immediate danger.

What if the original attacker has already been disarmed by the time I get there and the person holding the gun is actually a heroic bystander who entered the fray on better terms? The video of you in a second shootout withg the hero would play well on the nightly news.

Yes, everyone enjoys a bit of the "what if that church caught on fire and I ran in and saved the orphans."

[orionengnr]

being shot by first responders would be far more likely than anything else.

Note that I am not advocating any specific action or inaction here, but I keep seeing statements like this. Does anyone have examples of this actually happening, especially, often enough that is actually a concern?

To be honest, it's beginning to sound an awful lot like "Having a gun in your house increases your chances of being killed" or "if you carry a gun the BG will take it away and use it against you..."

While there may be anecdotal evidence of each of these occurring on occasion, saying that any of them is the most likely outcome seems...contrived. Or at least, I have not seen any evidence to support these positions.

[raimius]

The national standard for LEO response to a violent crime is 3 minutes after notification (unless it has changed in the past couple decades). Even at the NIU shooting, a 90 second response was late enough that the shooting had already ended. That is why LEOs usually don't shoot the "hero" at an active shooting--it's usually over, one way or another, by the time they can get there. (Also, few shootings with more than 3 fatalities are ended by civilian response. Seems like civilians usually end things prior to that "mass shooting" classification, or are not able to effectively resist.)

Don't claim to be someone you are not. If you are not a police officer, don't claim to be one. Yelling "police" is likely wasted communication in such a scenario, if you are seeking compliance to your directions. People will either recognize a good idea presented to them or be too out of it to react appropriately. "GET DOWN" if in the line of fire, or "GET OUT OF HERE" if in a position to escape present pretty clear directions. You don't need to start out with "Hello, I'm Officer Smith with the Nowheresville PD, you should listen to what I say," especially when you are not Officer Smith.

The safest place to be during a gunfight is somewhere else. That said, if you feel the need to defend others, MAKE SURE you can accurately figure out what is going on before you use force.

[locnload]

There is a saying, I don't know where it originated but its gets kicked around in the fire service a lot, "if you find yourself in charge, take charge". People will be looking for a leader, many of them will still be in the "it sounds like fire crackers" stage. If you are giving clear directions as to what to do most will do it even if you don't anounce yourself as a police officer. As to whether you choose to seek out and engage the active shooter is a personal choice, but one that should be made now, not in the middle of a crisis. You don't need to go running through the store waving you gun in the air like a crazy man, be covert and seek out the shooter. Whatever your action, get to it. Get out of Dodge or get hunting, but do it NOW.
As for the risk, yes its possible that police or another armed citizen may shoot you, although I suspect less likely than many think. Its a risk, like jumping into a fast moving, freezing cold river to save someone who's car just went in upside down, but can you live with yourself if you stand on the bank waiting for "someone to do something"?

[Moonglum]

Another thing to remember if you choose to engage the shooter is accomplices. In June of 2014 a concealed carrier in Las Vegas tried to stop an active shooter in a Wal Mart. He ran right past the shooter's spouse(?) who was also part of the shooting confronted him and she shot him in the back of the head

[mikld]

I'm really impressed with all the answers. I asked a simple question on carrying a particular/specific handgun a while back and was jumped on my the forum "experts" as a stupid question and directed to do a search. My subsequent post and apology censored...

[TimSr]

I remember the story of a Family Dollar store getting robbed. The robber had the clerk kneeling, walked around being the clerk and pointed his gun at the back of the clerk's head. A concealed carrier shot the robber and killed him before he pulled the trigger.

The robber's family members were outraged and argued the concealed carrier had no right to shoot the robber, because the robber never pointed his gun at the concealed carrier. They said he should have minded his own business and just left the store.

At first I laughed and the ridiculousness of such a mentality, and wondered where it came from. Then I started reading gun forums.



If you were at Sandyhook Elementary, were armed, and heard gunshots and children screaming, what should you do?

The correct is to grab YOUR kid and evacuate. It's up to the other parents to get their kids out, and their fault if they aren't there.


The only problem with all this advice is that after I save my own butt, and my child, I still have to live with myself.

[fastbolt]

If you want to learn the potential options regarding appropriate possible responses to some life threatening emergency situation, get some actual training.

Preferably from an experienced trainer who can present, frame and thoroughly explain your potential reasonable options within the law, and help you learn to develop a frame of reference for making good decisions in bad situations, without further endangering yourself, your loved ones and other innocent persons in the process.

The "What if? game", done without knowledge, training and experience, may be an enjoyable way to entertain yourself, but it's not going to be a practical substitute for actually learning what you could, and should, do under real world circumstances.

In other words, what good do you think you're achieving by engaging in 'hypothetical situations' if your training & knowledge is also hypothetical?

You might also want to try and acquire at least a working grasp and understanding of how the laws work in your area, as well.

The problem with trying to pretend you can arrive at a correct "answer" regarding practical, lawful actions and effective tactics by engaging in theorizing and guesswork, is that you don't know what you don't know. Hard to make good decisions when you don't know the how & why of deciding things.

Trying to herd people somewhere might seem laudable, but what if your actions turn out to cause people's deaths, and it could've been avoided by doing something different?

Identifying yourself as "the police" may cause you to be charged with impersonating law enforcement. In CA, misidentifying yourself as law enforcement is considered ample ground to have your CCW license revoked, even if you're not charged with the crime of impersonating a peace officer. The CA DOJ CCW application even specifically states this is a "no-no" (non-technical lay person's term ) for licensees.

Lastly, but no less importantly, being shot by anyone - "active shooter", armed robbery suspect, other CCW licensee or the local police, or any combination thereof - is still being shot. The same thing applies to your loved ones.

You don't want to take some unplanned and/or unreasonable (and untrained) action which could increase the possibility of you, and/or your loved ones (or any innocent third persons) being shot, right?

Reading books, magazine articles and browsing the internet for info and video clips may be all well and good, but if you really want to learn about these sorts of things, consider getting some actual training, from an actual trainer (with some certified training knowledge and experience in the subject matter), with some actual experience. Take it from there. Don't neglect the potential for looking into some sort of insurance coverage for your potential actions, and obtaining some actual legal advice.

LE, as a whole, have the benefit of receiving training in these things, and usually have access to some sort of legal coverage on an individual basis (like through an association, union, etc), even if their agencies possesses coverage and have legal advice available from state, county or city attorneys who can act to represent the agencies in situations involving use-of-force matters.

LE may also have a requirement to undergo periodic in-service training in many subjects (often called advanced officer training, which may required in order to meet any state certification standards every year or two).

Even so, with all that access to training and knowledge, LE can still sometimes make mistakes. Mistakes of fact and law and violating policy are difficult to defend, but notwithstanding those things, making bad decisions under stress still happens. How much more likely might making bad decisions be if someone without all that training and access to knowledge might be involved?

Chance favors the prepared mind, right? (Quote attributed to Louis Pasteur, but repeated often enough to have seemingly entered the general public consciousness. )

Just some thoughts. I know this is a tactics and training sub-forum in a popular public gun forum, and everybody enjoys a good informal discussion about such things, but remember that it's not an intended substitute for actual training. Just like it's not intended to be taken as a substitute for consulting with an actual licensed attorney at law when it comes to legal matters, right?

[shafter]

I'm intrigued by the hero complex that some folks seem to have.

Generally it only seems to apply to shooting types of scenarios. It makes me wonder. Suppose there was a severe food shortage and people were dying. You were wise however, and foresaw the crisis. You stocked up and prepared.

Would you give away your food to people who had ample opportunity to see what was coming and prepare themselves if it put you and your family at risk? I think not.

[johnwilliamson062]

Does anyone have examples of this actually happening, especially, often enough that is actually a concern?

Statistics or examples? There are a fair number of examples of off duty officers being shot when on-duty officers arrive at the scene. I'm not sure the media cares enough about normal folk to find much of "civilians." Also, "dead men tell no tales." I wonder how many times this has happened and the story was re-written by the surviving "bad guy."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One of our contributors (a LEO) recounted a story of a guy coming up to a mall shooting and running towards the mall with handgun out. He was trying to save his sweetie. Luckily, some officer stopped another from shooting him.

The number of civilian interventions with CHLs is rather low, so we don't have good evidence. But the point about blue on blue is well taken and well known.

[fastbolt]

Recent instance of an apparently mistaken identification of a non-uniformed cop intentionally shot & killed by a uniformed cop.

Yes, it happens all too often.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20...colleague.html

It's been a topic of discussion throughout the 34 years I've carried a badge, and I've listened to it mentioned in various training for many years. I attended a class dedicated to plainclothes/UC tactics, including trying to avoid being killed by other cops, back in '02 ... and that was sadly within a week of a local cop being shot and killed in UC clothes by a uniformed cop responding to a shots-fired situation. Unfortunately, the cops both belonged to the same large agency, and didn't know each other.

Not hard to imagine an untrained (in LE tactics and specific agency policies) private citizen being shot and seriously injured or killed if caught up in a dynamic active shooter incident, or even a "regular" robbery or other violent crime, if holding/shooting a gun when local cops arrive ... or even if viewed as a perceived "threat" by some other CCW licensee.

I certainly think about the potential when carrying my LEOSA weapon, and especially since I'm living where I didn't serve as a cop.