|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
December 9, 2014, 01:06 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 402
|
Shoot out at Pawn Shop, Tactics worth reflection
There was an attempted murder and robbery at a local pawn and gun shop, this last Saturday morning, just after they opened. There are lots of things that could be discussed and there was some very good video that might still be available on it. I seen most of it this morning but when I did a search later, I didn't find as much.
I will try to post a link later. If someone wants to search, it's regarding C and S Pawn shop Robbery, Springdale Ark. To sum it up, Two men enter just after they open on Saturday morning, wearing sweatshirts with hoods and start shooting at the people behind the counters. There are three people working behind the counters, a husband and wife owners, and another part time helper, and no other customers in the store at the time. The two perps each target the two men, located on opposite ends of the store, the helper has to dive down to the floor behind the counter and can't return fire, because he can't get his small revolver out of his front pants pocket in the prone position. The helper is saved mostly because the perp's semi-auto pistol keeps jamming on him. While this is happening the husband who is standing behind the counter in the back of store, is shot at by the second perp but manages to duck down and the first bullet misses his head, but he is sort of bent over, and can't get is gun out of his front pants pocket, another .38 revolver. The Woman (older lady and wife of the husband, starts shooting at the perp as he jumps over the counter to get to her husband. She shoots a revolver loaded with .38 plus P's, 4 times and hits him, at least once according to the news,( but the woman told me that she hit the perp 3 times out of 4 shots), but the perp returns fire at the woman, and the perp's bullets hit the counter and a book of coins on top of counter, causing the book and a mostly spent bullet to hit her in the chest, she goes down, but the perp is hurting and runs out of store. The store people all survive without serious injury. You need to see the videos and there were several versions showing different angles of the incident. I will try to post one or two, others may want to post one if they find a good one. Both Perps run out of store, and are later apprehended at a hospital in Fort Smith Ark. I thing there are lots of lessons that can be learned from this gunfight if ones watches the videos and reflects on what happened and what went wrong, frankly the woman saved the day for them, but they all were very lucky to be alive, in my opinion. The perps had long police records, and the owners believe they intended to kill them and leave no witnesses because they just started shooting, before even asking them for anything. Last edited by Blue Duck; December 9, 2014 at 01:38 AM. |
December 9, 2014, 01:18 AM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 402
|
|
December 9, 2014, 01:28 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 402
|
http://5newsonline.com/2014/12/06/sp...rning-robbery/
This link to the video, shows some other footage of one of the perps trying to kill the helper behind the counter, but his gun keeps jamming, which probably saved the helpers life. Last edited by Blue Duck; December 9, 2014 at 01:34 AM. |
December 9, 2014, 01:48 AM | #4 |
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,971
|
Drove past that store last month on the way to and from the in-laws' place.
Looks like the clerk in the front of the store needs a better tactic than lying down on the floor and hoping for mercy. If the robber's gun had not jammed repeatedly he would likely be a dead man. Good on the other clerk for getting her gun out quickly. Looks like she emptied it rapidly (apparently scoring a hit) and then went for the same tactic that the other clerk did--she lay down on the floor and hoped not to get shot. Given that this has (according to the business owner from across the street) happened before, I'm surprised that they weren't better prepared. Apparently only one clerk was armed, and she used up all her ammunition in a couple of seconds dealing with only one of the crooks. The other, fortunately for both clerks appears to have had some serious problems getting his firearm to operate properly. Although he attempted to shoot numerous times I could only see one shot that actually worked in the video. Kind of amusing, in a sad way, that the business owner across the street seems to be more upset that the clerks fired on the robbers (endangering traffic and other businesses in the area) than about the armed robbery.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
December 9, 2014, 02:04 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 402
|
One thing I got out of this when I first watched one of videos, was how fast thing happened once the bullet started flying.
The two men were very lucky not to have been hit at all by any of the bullets fired, and I guess they were able to react at least fast enough not to get shot, even though neither could return fire. I suppose a good rule in a gunfight is not to get shot. The other thing I got out of it, was especially in the case of running a place that might get robbed is even though both men were armed, and even had some other guns planted around the store, neither could return fire. A .38 snub in your pocket might make you feel safe, but if you can't access it quickly, it may not do you any good when the chips fall. One of the things that did help them all survive is awareness. They were suspecting this to go badly, by the time it started, which probably saved some of them by be able to react quickly even if it was just to duck down to avoid getting shot. The woman reacted well, and didn't hesitate to shoot when she had to, and she kept shooting as long as she could, I would give her credit for being cool under fire, and concentrating on her shooting. She is a gunfighter IMHO. The perps were lousy shots, and that's a good thing. But the employees, in this arena should have been carrying bigger guns in strong side holsters, maybe concealed by a vest or long shirt or something, where they could have accessed them quicker. Both men couldn't get their revolvers out of their pockets, quick enough, and I don't think either one got a shot off. This ought to be a good lesson for any of us, that CCW. Yeah I know, having a gun, any gun on your person makes you feel more secure, but I believe that many of us take the easy route, sometimes and use carry methods that are probably useless in many of the situations that are likely to happen, if something really did go down, that was life threatening. Hopefully, most of us will never be put to the test. |
December 9, 2014, 04:14 AM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 1, 2001
Posts: 6,323
|
In a high risk environment, lots of cash and valuables, I would think bigger and more accessible guns should be in use. Had they all been carrying Glock 19's in pancake rigs, they would have upp'd firepower a lot.
Honestly though, the result is about as good as you could expect. |
December 9, 2014, 04:19 AM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 19, 2011
Posts: 235
|
Beside not being able to get to your gun quickly, this video shows why carrying a revolver is not as good as a pistol IMO. She ran out of ammo quick. A pistol with 15+1 would have lasted longer and reloads would have been quick if she needed.
|
December 9, 2014, 06:06 AM | #8 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 22, 2014
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,549
|
Aaron She did not need a junkamatic just a reload NewYork or otherwise. And I bet two men should are wearing good belt holsters now.
|
December 9, 2014, 01:47 PM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,787
|
Quote:
|
|
December 9, 2014, 02:15 PM | #10 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 3,656
|
Quote:
Not to criticize her but I kinda wish she would've aimed a bit too. Also did I miss something or was the other business owner complaining that they defended themselves?
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug Last edited by Venom1956; December 9, 2014 at 02:58 PM. |
|
December 9, 2014, 02:16 PM | #11 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
|
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by 45_auto; December 9, 2014 at 02:23 PM. |
||
December 9, 2014, 02:35 PM | #12 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
She stood there and traded shots with the perp, did not use the sights and did not stay in the fight after she thought she had been hit ..... still it appears she performed better than the other two on her side of the argument ..... |
|
December 9, 2014, 02:39 PM | #13 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 21, 2011
Location: Southern Louisiana
Posts: 1,399
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
December 9, 2014, 02:42 PM | #14 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
|
|
December 9, 2014, 03:33 PM | #15 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 2,074
|
Not long ago in another thread, I got panned for suggesting that its a good idea to practice rapid fire to figure out at what speed you could draw, fire, and rapid fire and STILL keep hitting the target, because in a panic, people tend to see how fast they can empty their gun, and forget to take pause and aim unless they practice it. I also suggested that recoil affected follow up shots and was panned for suggesting follow up shots might needed, even by message forum professionals. The woman performed amazingly well, but I will submit that had she trained to figure out her max effective rapid fire rate, she might have slowed down and might have made more shots count. I don't see larger ammo capacity as the best solution for not hitting your target under stress.
Personally, in that type of business, where everybody assumes employees are armed anyways, you may as well carry something you can shoot better and not worry so much about concealability. |
December 9, 2014, 03:34 PM | #16 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
|
It sounds like a small operation where they should be buzzing people in rather than letting them walk in.
All of the gun stores Ive been to the store people open carry and this sounds like an operation where they should do the same. |
December 9, 2014, 03:35 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
|
I have to agree with others that in that sort of working environment, being the owners, limiting oneself to a snub was probably not the best way to go.
If I carry it is a snub, but that is for concealability and due to local legal requirements stating condition 3 semi carry only. But, if I worked in a high-value target place like that, was behind the counter, in my own business, I would certainly be carrying a fullsize with a spare mag.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
|
December 9, 2014, 03:36 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 19, 2007
Posts: 2,663
|
A "Bill Drill" - exactly. Looks like she bobbled her draw a little, but still engaged.
She did ok, considering, and she's still alive to talk about it. |
December 9, 2014, 03:37 PM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 6, 2013
Posts: 456
|
...but if a snub is all you can handle while working it might be the only way to go. Im assuming this job has some bending and lifting to it. Manuevering around the store and such.
|
December 9, 2014, 04:37 PM | #20 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,498
|
If anything, the neigboring business owner that complained has pretty much greenlit his own business as a potential spot for criminals to rob without fear of being shot at.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard |
December 9, 2014, 04:52 PM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2012
Location: Memphis
Posts: 468
|
Quote:
|
|
December 9, 2014, 05:12 PM | #22 | |
Junior member
Join Date: October 4, 2007
Location: All the way to NEBRASKA
Posts: 8,722
|
Quote:
....and I am fairly positive she'd be better off with a firm, two handed grip, utilizing the sights (provided she paracticed it) than the limp, one handed sorta-hip shooting thing, or whatever it was, she was doing....... |
|
December 9, 2014, 05:41 PM | #23 |
Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 75
|
Good grief.
The 60+ year old woman gets an A+ in my book. She was armed = A-. She engaged with her weapon = A. She hit what she was aiming at in a life and death real engagement = A+. I wonder if anyone here will do better, in real time, real life. Give me a break for those of you criticizing her draw technique, or for going down after being "hit". This is a predictable reaction (see FBI leathality study) for any person who is "shot". Did I mention she looks to be in her 60's? Wow, just wow.
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis SIG P226 MK25 9mm | SIG 239 9mm | Beretta Nano SIG M400 Enhanced Black | Ruger PC9 | Winchester 9422 |
December 9, 2014, 05:47 PM | #24 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 4, 2008
Location: WI
Posts: 3,656
|
Quote:
If that engagement was an A+ in your book you must leave alot to chance. She was very lucky. Quote:
__________________
E-Shock rounds are engineered to expend maximum energy into soft targets, turning the density mass into an expanding rotational cone of NyTrilium matrix particles, causing neurological collapse to the central nervous system.- Yeah I can do that. I guarantee you will know it if a bicyclist hits your house going 1000 mph. -Smaug |
||
December 9, 2014, 06:12 PM | #25 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 2,526
|
I pocket carry often and there have been times that I worried about being able to get a revolver out of my pocket quickly. I probably practice drawing more than the average pawn shop clerk but I'd much rather have my revolver or G26 in an OWB holster concealed under a shirt than have to dig either out of a pocket while bending over, seated or prone.
Quote:
The lady had a mindset that allowed her to drive the robbers off with a small revolver. I'm glad the good guys suffered no serious injuries and I'm pleased the robbers were caught. Hopefully, the robbers will spend a long time in prison. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|