Shoot out at Pawn Shop, Tactics worth reflection

[Blue Duck]

There was an attempted murder and robbery at a local pawn and gun shop, this last Saturday morning, just after they opened. There are lots of things that could be discussed and there was some very good video that might still be available on it. I seen most of it this morning but when I did a search later, I didn't find as much.

I will try to post a link later. If someone wants to search, it's regarding C and S Pawn shop Robbery, Springdale Ark.

To sum it up, Two men enter just after they open on Saturday morning, wearing sweatshirts with hoods and start shooting at the people behind the counters. There are three people working behind the counters, a husband and wife owners, and another part time helper, and no other customers in the store at the time.

The two perps each target the two men, located on opposite ends of the store, the helper has to dive down to the floor behind the counter and can't return fire, because he can't get his small revolver out of his front pants pocket in the prone position.
The helper is saved mostly because the perp's semi-auto pistol keeps jamming on him.

While this is happening the husband who is standing behind the counter in the back of store, is shot at by the second perp but manages to duck down and the first bullet misses his head, but he is sort of bent over, and can't get is gun out of his front pants pocket, another .38 revolver.

The Woman (older lady and wife of the husband, starts shooting at the perp as he jumps over the counter to get to her husband. She shoots a revolver loaded with .38 plus P's, 4 times and hits him, at least once according to the news,( but the woman told me that she hit the perp 3 times out of 4 shots), but the perp returns fire at the woman, and the perp's bullets hit the counter and a book of coins on top of counter, causing the book and a mostly spent bullet to hit her in the chest, she goes down, but the perp is hurting and runs out of store.

The store people all survive without serious injury.

You need to see the videos and there were several versions showing different angles of the incident. I will try to post one or two, others may want to post one if they find a good one.

Both Perps run out of store, and are later apprehended at a hospital in Fort Smith Ark.

I thing there are lots of lessons that can be learned from this gunfight if ones watches the videos and reflects on what happened and what went wrong, frankly the woman saved the day for them, but they all were very lucky to be alive, in my opinion.

The perps had long police records, and the owners believe they intended to kill them and leave no witnesses because they just started shooting, before even asking them for anything.

[Blue Duck]

http://www.arkansasmatters.com/story...9EGiWWJZY4m0ow

[Blue Duck]

http://5newsonline.com/2014/12/06/sp...rning-robbery/


This link to the video, shows some other footage of one of the perps trying to kill the helper behind the counter, but his gun keeps jamming, which probably saved the helpers life.

[JohnKSa]

Drove past that store last month on the way to and from the in-laws' place.

Looks like the clerk in the front of the store needs a better tactic than lying down on the floor and hoping for mercy. If the robber's gun had not jammed repeatedly he would likely be a dead man.

Good on the other clerk for getting her gun out quickly. Looks like she emptied it rapidly (apparently scoring a hit) and then went for the same tactic that the other clerk did--she lay down on the floor and hoped not to get shot.

Given that this has (according to the business owner from across the street) happened before, I'm surprised that they weren't better prepared. Apparently only one clerk was armed, and she used up all her ammunition in a couple of seconds dealing with only one of the crooks. The other, fortunately for both clerks appears to have had some serious problems getting his firearm to operate properly. Although he attempted to shoot numerous times I could only see one shot that actually worked in the video.

Kind of amusing, in a sad way, that the business owner across the street seems to be more upset that the clerks fired on the robbers (endangering traffic and other businesses in the area) than about the armed robbery.

[Blue Duck]

One thing I got out of this when I first watched one of videos, was how fast thing happened once the bullet started flying.

The two men were very lucky not to have been hit at all by any of the bullets fired, and I guess they were able to react at least fast enough not to get shot, even though neither could return fire. I suppose a good rule in a gunfight is not to get shot.

The other thing I got out of it, was especially in the case of running a place that might get robbed is even though both men were armed, and even had some other guns planted around the store, neither could return fire. A .38 snub in your pocket might make you feel safe, but if you can't access it quickly, it may not do you any good when the chips fall.

One of the things that did help them all survive is awareness. They were suspecting this to go badly, by the time it started, which probably saved some of them by be able to react quickly even if it was just to duck down to avoid getting shot.

The woman reacted well, and didn't hesitate to shoot when she had to, and she kept shooting as long as she could, I would give her credit for being cool under fire, and concentrating on her shooting. She is a gunfighter IMHO.

The perps were lousy shots, and that's a good thing. But the employees, in this arena should have been carrying bigger guns in strong side holsters, maybe concealed by a vest or long shirt or something, where they could have accessed them quicker. Both men couldn't get their revolvers out of their pockets, quick enough, and I don't think either one got a shot off.

This ought to be a good lesson for any of us, that CCW. Yeah I know, having a gun, any gun on your person makes you feel more secure, but I believe that many of us take the easy route, sometimes and use carry methods that are probably useless in many of the situations that are likely to happen, if something really did go down, that was life threatening. Hopefully, most of us will never be put to the test.

[Nathan]

In a high risk environment, lots of cash and valuables, I would think bigger and more accessible guns should be in use. Had they all been carrying Glock 19's in pancake rigs, they would have upp'd firepower a lot.

Honestly though, the result is about as good as you could expect.

[Aaron1100us]

Beside not being able to get to your gun quickly, this video shows why carrying a revolver is not as good as a pistol IMO. She ran out of ammo quick. A pistol with 15+1 would have lasted longer and reloads would have been quick if she needed.

[hartcreek]

Aaron She did not need a junkamatic just a reload NewYork or otherwise. And I bet two men should are wearing good belt holsters now.

[TailGator]

she used up all her ammunition in a couple of seconds dealing with only one of the crooks.

That possibility is exactly why I switched from a revolver to a pistol for EDC a few years back. We all talk about handgun rounds not getting us one-stop shots, and when you consider the possibility of multiple assailants and anything less than perfect shooting, the math favors more capacity than a 5-shot revolver.

[Venom1956]

Looks like she emptied it rapidly (apparently scoring a hit) and then went for the same tactic that the other clerk did--she lay down on the floor and hoped not to get shot.

I noticed that too. I think when the book hit her she thought she was shot and just sorta fell over... Cuz thats what you do when you get shot. Looks like she even checks it after the fact.

Not to criticize her but I kinda wish she would've aimed a bit too.

Also did I miss something or was the other business owner complaining that they defended themselves?

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by Aaron1100us

this video shows why carrying a revolver is not as good as a pistol IMO. She ran out of ammo quick. A pistol with 15+1 would have lasted longer and reloads would have been quick if she needed.

Funny, I thought it showed the opposite. Looked to me like a working 5 shot revolver beat a jammed no-shot semi-auto. You really believe that she would have been better off with a jammed semi-auto, like the gun the robber used? It also appeared that the loose one-handed grip she was using would be asking for a limp-wrist jam in a semi-auto.

Originally Posted by Blueduck

The helper is saved mostly because the perp's semi-auto pistol keeps jamming on him.

[jimbob86]

The woman reacted well, and didn't hesitate to shoot when she had to, and she kept shooting as long as she could, I would give her credit for being cool under fire, and concentrating on her shooting. She is a gunfighter IMHO.

Well, she's been in a gunfight, anyways.......

She stood there and traded shots with the perp, did not use the sights and did not stay in the fight after she thought she had been hit ..... still it appears she performed better than the other two on her side of the argument .....

[45_auto]

still it appears she performed better than the other two on her side of the argument .....

Appears to me that she also performed better than the two on the opposite side of the argument ....

Originally Posted by Blueduck

Both Perps run out of store, and are later apprehended at a hospital in Fort Smith Ark.

[jimbob86]

Appears to me that she also performed better than the two on the opposite side of the argument ....

Damned by faint praise, that.

[TimSr]

Not long ago in another thread, I got panned for suggesting that its a good idea to practice rapid fire to figure out at what speed you could draw, fire, and rapid fire and STILL keep hitting the target, because in a panic, people tend to see how fast they can empty their gun, and forget to take pause and aim unless they practice it. I also suggested that recoil affected follow up shots and was panned for suggesting follow up shots might needed, even by message forum professionals. The woman performed amazingly well, but I will submit that had she trained to figure out her max effective rapid fire rate, she might have slowed down and might have made more shots count. I don't see larger ammo capacity as the best solution for not hitting your target under stress.

Personally, in that type of business, where everybody assumes employees are armed anyways, you may as well carry something you can shoot better and not worry so much about concealability.

[johnelmore]

It sounds like a small operation where they should be buzzing people in rather than letting them walk in.

All of the gun stores Ive been to the store people open carry and this sounds like an operation where they should do the same.

[Pond, James Pond]

I have to agree with others that in that sort of working environment, being the owners, limiting oneself to a snub was probably not the best way to go.

If I carry it is a snub, but that is for concealability and due to local legal requirements stating condition 3 semi carry only.

But, if I worked in a high-value target place like that, was behind the counter, in my own business, I would certainly be carrying a fullsize with a spare mag.

[Slopemeno]

A "Bill Drill" - exactly. Looks like she bobbled her draw a little, but still engaged.

She did ok, considering, and she's still alive to talk about it.

[johnelmore]

...but if a snub is all you can handle while working it might be the only way to go. Im assuming this job has some bending and lifting to it. Manuevering around the store and such.

[spacemanspiff]

If anything, the neigboring business owner that complained has pretty much greenlit his own business as a potential spot for criminals to rob without fear of being shot at.

[southjk]

You really believe that she would have been better off with a jammed semi-auto, like the gun the robber used? It also appeared that the loose one-handed grip she was using would be asking for a limp-wrist jam in a semi-auto.

I guess I got really lucky when I bought my semi-autos. I must have bought the only 5 pistols in the area that don't immediately jam when fired. And here I thought it was because a thief would probably buy the cheapest gun possible and probably not go to the range to test it out to make sure it was a reliable gun where that is what I do and make sure to buy a reputable brand. Thanks for the enlightenment. As far as limp wristing, just don't buy a Glock.

[jimbob86]

You really believe that she would have been better off with a jammed semi-auto, like the gun the robber used?

Not at all... but she might have been better off with a reliable semi-auto. They seem to be fairly common these days.

....and I am fairly positive she'd be better off with a firm, two handed grip, utilizing the sights (provided she paracticed it) than the limp, one handed sorta-hip shooting thing, or whatever it was, she was doing.......

[campbed]

Good grief.

The 60+ year old woman gets an A+ in my book.
She was armed = A-.
She engaged with her weapon = A.
She hit what she was aiming at in a life and death real engagement = A+.

I wonder if anyone here will do better, in real time, real life.

Give me a break for those of you criticizing her draw technique, or for going down after being "hit". This is a predictable reaction (see FBI leathality study) for any person who is "shot". Did I mention she looks to be in her 60's? Wow, just wow.

[Venom1956]

Give me a break for those of you criticizing her draw technique, or for going down after being "hit". This is a predictable reaction (see FBI leathality study) for any person who is "shot".

Relax man. Who was criticizing? It was just a simple observation. As was her actions after she ran out of ammo.

If that engagement was an A+ in your book you must leave alot to chance. She was very lucky.

I wonder if anyone here will do better, in real time, real life.

Who knows? Perhaps yes perhaps no. But you can do your best to prepare yourself for it. All the prep in the world equals zero if that robbers first shot hits you square in the head.

[2damnold4this]

I pocket carry often and there have been times that I worried about being able to get a revolver out of my pocket quickly. I probably practice drawing more than the average pawn shop clerk but I'd much rather have my revolver or G26 in an OWB holster concealed under a shirt than have to dig either out of a pocket while bending over, seated or prone.

One of the things that did help them all survive is awareness. They were suspecting this to go badly, by the time it started, which probably saved some of them by be able to react quickly even if it was just to duck down to avoid getting shot.

If the shop workers got a bad vibe from the robbers, I wonder why they didn't make their way to the more potent weapons concealed in the shop or at least get their hands on their revolvers?


The lady had a mindset that allowed her to drive the robbers off with a small revolver. I'm glad the good guys suffered no serious injuries and I'm pleased the robbers were caught. Hopefully, the robbers will spend a long time in prison.