September 15, 2015, 05:59 PM | #1 |
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Trigger Discipline
I would say that a good majority of the gun owners I encounter have great trigger discipline.
When did the idea of keeping your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot become standard practice? I was wondering since I just stumbled upon this WWII photo. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Lorient_01.jpg That grease gun is itching to go off... |
September 15, 2015, 06:50 PM | #2 |
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I had a technician who went through France in WWII with his Thompson - always set on Full Auto ! But constant use every day taught him to be able to fire any number of rounds he wanted .Yes trigger discipline !
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September 15, 2015, 06:59 PM | #3 |
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Just amazing to see how much technique has changed since the past 70 years.
All that crap I hear about USGI 1911s not being able to hit the side of a barn must have stemmed from the horrible one handed crouching position which I see in period training manuals. I've seen folks shoot these "loose" pistols better than experienced folks with TRPs and such. |
September 15, 2015, 07:08 PM | #4 |
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Seems like he is following the rules, his weapon is pointed at something that he is willing to shoot
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September 15, 2015, 07:18 PM | #5 |
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Hes not going to shoot much...the gun is on safe.
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September 15, 2015, 08:25 PM | #6 |
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AK103K, nice catch! I had to lookup the field manual for the M3 to understand the "safety" works.
Must have been a staged photo for propaganda/morale purposes. |
September 15, 2015, 10:03 PM | #7 |
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The doctrine of keeping finger off trigger is as young as the 4 firearms safety rules as we know today. They didn't have that no too long ago.
-TL |
September 15, 2015, 10:44 PM | #8 | |
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September 15, 2015, 10:47 PM | #9 |
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I was under the impression that the only safety on the M3 was the flap that covers the bolt. The photo shows the bolt in the shut/safe position.
Didn't think the M3 had a selector switch. |
September 16, 2015, 03:31 AM | #10 |
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The "cover" is the safety. They dont have a selector.
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September 16, 2015, 01:07 PM | #11 |
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Yes, a lot has changed in the last hundred and four years since the army adopted the 1911. A lot more will change in the next hundred and four years, although I haven't any idea what it is.
I don't know if an army issue 1911 was all that inaccurate when they were new. Original army training videos suggest otherwise, even when using just one hand--the way the gun was intended to be used. On the other hand, some old-timers believed it took a long time to make a good handgun shot. But Elmer Keith's idea of a "good man with a handgun" was making hits at a distance most would have trouble making with a rifle. Yet men were sent behind enemy lines with less training and practice than most of you get in over the weekend armed with only a handgun. It might also be true that issue army 1911 .45 autos were beginning to be slightly worn out by the 1980s. I am 69 years old and I don't think the army acquired any newly manufactured .45 autos in my lifetime. However, the army may have been aware that some men had trouble being effective combat shooters with a pistol, even in 1940. That's why the .30 caliber carbine was introduced. Energy-wise, it's way ahead of most handgun rounds, especially when it was adopted, even if it doesn't make a good deer cartridge (according to Frank Barnes). But my father, who fought in Italy and was captured and held prisoner for a year for his troubles, claimed the carbine was not accurate. I don't recall him mentioning anything about the pistol. Oddly enough, in the two photos I have of him from during WWII in which he was armed, he has a shotgun in one photo and a revolver in a reverse draw holster in the other. Coincidentally, I also have a photo of my son in Kuwait in 2006 also armed with a shotgun.
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September 16, 2015, 01:53 PM | #12 |
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I have a film strip somewhere of me drawing and firing double action with my Model 19. (Yes, they actually had them new fangled cottiges back then.)
I am wearing a Bucheimer Federal Man holster (a thumb break type); the gun is out of the holster and coming up at about a 45 degree angle. The hammer is halfway back. It will fall just as the gun lines up on the target. The holster has a fully exposed trigger guard, and my finger was on the trigger as I released the strap. As hard as it may be for our current safety conscious (some might say "safety insane") trainers to believe, I still have all my toes, and no bullet holes in any part of my anatomy. Today, at 82, I do not draw, or even attempt to draw, that fast. But it can be done, and I did it, without mishap. Jim |
September 16, 2015, 02:48 PM | #13 | |
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From a blog post I wrote some time back:
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And the pop quiz is, "After watching for thirty seconds after the 3:15 mark, can you name one important way that firearms training has changed since 1944?" pax, Kathy |
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September 16, 2015, 06:07 PM | #14 |
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I think the answer would be, everyone including that instructor would be kicked out at a modern range for muzzle discipline...
Firm grip... with your finger right on that sweat single action trigger. |
September 16, 2015, 08:39 PM | #15 | ||
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September 17, 2015, 07:29 AM | #16 |
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In the not too distant past, there were many long established practices in gun handling that would not pass muster today. Most of them were little details that were for greater accessibility of the pistol with speed in mind. Usually, the "pistol" was a revolver. The army has never expressed much speed in fast draw pistol shooting. Fast shooting, yes, just not a fast draw. But that was the army. Individual soldiers often had their own ideas.
There are a few photos of soldiers somewhere in the west in the late 1800s, all armed with revolvers, which meant they were cavalry. The holster in use was a reverse draw pattern with a flap and the revolver was the .38 Colt. Many of the men had the flap open and tucked behind the belt with the revolver reversed in the holster, meaning butt to the rear. Totally unofficial. Decades later, I believe western movies had a pronounced influence on handgun shooting and which I suspect is still there underneath all the layers the years add on. Hollywood holsters were all the rage and even Elmer Keith sported a fancy set. Not particularly authentic but decidedly modern sixty years on (in 1940, that is). Good for a fast draw but still of questionable practicality for a mounted man. Authentic styles are still available, too, by the way. Ignoring swivel holsters that were very common when policemen wore white shirts, an up-to-the-minute combat rig had a cutaway style that left the trigger guard exposed, the better to do a fast draw. A super fast draw, which was basically trick shooting, required you to put your finger inside the trigger guard almost from the start of the draw, speed being everything. Of course, the draw was so blindingly fast that no one could really tell what was happening.
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September 17, 2015, 11:21 AM | #17 | |
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Blue Train,
Holster design is kind of a fascinating side trail on this. As JamesK pointed out, we didn't always design holsters with covered trigger guards, and it did used to be standard practice to draw with one's finger on the trigger -- for speed. Hate to quote my own blog twice in one thread, but what the heck... Quote:
pax |
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September 17, 2015, 11:43 AM | #18 | |
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September 17, 2015, 02:44 PM | #19 |
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Having owned one for a six-inch barrel revolver, I believe that a reverse-carry holster is more comfortable on horseback and in a few other positions. It's interesting that the army started out with that kind of holster.
Actual western cowboy holsters from before WWI tended to be a sort of deep pocket for the revolver so it wouldn't be lost when riding. They apparently were always worn loose on the belt and the belt was relatively loose, too, so it could be easily moved around for comfort. By today's standards, and even more so by 1950s Hollywood holster standards, they were not fast draw holsters. And not every revolver was a Colt Single Action Army, either, for that matter. It could be said that real advances in holster design did not occur until after WWI, mainly in law enforcement circles.
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September 17, 2015, 06:44 PM | #20 |
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Is bolt cover on that M3 up? If it's not, the gun is on safe.
And, with his hand placement, that German could be on him before he got the lid up.
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September 17, 2015, 10:25 PM | #21 | |
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Quote:
No way you would have your finger on the trigger and have the bolt flap shut. |
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