sig p220 and SWC issues...

hans4811 · December 7, 2009, 07:19 PM

Hello All,
First off, want to say what a great group of people here on this forum. Been reading but not posting anything as all my questions have been answered by just searching around. Everybody seems real helpful...
But now I've got a question and I thought on Pearl Harbor day that it was appropriate to post my first question, seeing how our guys died for my right of being able to own a gun in the first place.
I hope someone has successfully done this out there..... Been reloading for some time and I recently purchased a Sig P220. Great Gun btw... Started off with a 230 gr RN plated, BE 4.3 gr and a 1.2450 OAL..No problems. Tried some Unique at 5.6 gr and HS-6 at 7.4 gr with everything else the same...again, no problems. All fed and fired great behind CCI 300 primers. Went into my local shop to replenish some bullets and all they had was some 200 gr SWC copper plated, so I thought why not, try something different right, thats whats so fun about reloading...trying different stuff.
Thats when the problems started....every mag, the first or second one, always fails to feed. Just gets stuck on the ramp and have to drop the mag to get it out. Here's my load data...

200 Gr SWC Copper plated
Unique 5.6 gr, max is 5.9 I believe
1.2450 OAL +-.003

I tried dropping the OAL down to 1.2375, but same thing...
Deeper maybe? Got some room to play, minimum is 1.19.
Thought maybe a little hotter load, can't go much higher. My other load with the 230gr and HS-6 really throws the brass a good 7' away whereas the 200 Gr SWC and Unique just drops it at my feet or just a few feet away. hmmm....

Can't imagine the mag being a problem as I've only shot the thing half a dozen times, but I am gonna try the other mag, as I haven't done that yet.

Oh, and I'm using a LEE Loadmaster with 1.) decapper 2.) resizer and prime 3.) flare and charge 4.) bullet seat 5.) FCD all from the same lot of winchester brass.

Has anyone successfully used a SWC in a Sig and if so, what's your load data ? I know, just go back to shooting the RN rite, but now it's personal

Plus, once I start something, I hate to give up....

Thanks so much in advance
Ken

hans4811 · December 7, 2009, 08:15 PM

Interesting...just found this in another thread...

"It will not feed handloaded SWC's with over 5 in the magazine, but anything else feeds, extracts and ejects flawlessly."

Anybody else....??

chris in va · December 8, 2009, 02:33 PM

My older 220 feeds anything I've bought for it, so for it to not like a SWC is really saying something. I'd stick with other bullet profiles.

I've also heard about issues with SWC and 1911's, in other threads.

DWARREN123 · December 8, 2009, 04:30 PM

A lot of 45 ACP brands seem to have some problems with SWC's. Try different OAL and not just shorter. Maybe try a little hotter loading also.
Hope you find the sweet spot.

hans4811 · December 8, 2009, 06:30 PM

I've tried the longest OAL allowable, which is 1.2450, but that jams. Alliant says 5.4gr, so I'll try that at 1.2450 and 1.2000 which is the max and min.

I'll also try a little hotter, 5.8gr at 1.2450, 6.0gr at 1.2350.

If none of these work, heck with it, I'll just put 5 in the mag till i run out of the SWC and just stick to what works, right!

schmeky · December 8, 2009, 08:25 PM

hans,

Your problem obviously started when you used a different SWC bullet. My guess is you had been using the H&G #68 SWC, which is the best feeding .45 bullet in this style and weight. The #68 approximates a 230 gn RNL bullet as far as OAL and feeding are concerned.

There are some short, stubby SWC's that don't feed well. The charge in powder grain weight obviously has nothing to do with feeding. Shoot up the ones you have and go back to what worked.

m&p45acp10+1 · December 8, 2009, 08:49 PM

I tried 200 grain cast swc at a COL of 1.26 and had no feeding problems with my M&P 45. I did have a problem of low POI compared to POA. I remidied this by seating at 1.23 and all work well. Try a COL of 1.23 even. Mine have fed flawlessly.

Kyo · December 8, 2009, 09:00 PM

I would suggest you run them from 1.22x to 1.23x and not 1.245 or higher.
4.3 grains of bullseye is plenty for that charge.

hans4811 · December 9, 2009, 11:12 PM

"I would suggest you run them from 1.22x to 1.23x and not 1.245 or higher"

Kyo, that's exactly what I just did. Created a batch of about 20 at 1.2200 and kept the powder at the same weight. Try 'em out this weekend ...keeping my fingers crossed as I still have about 300 of these things! :barf:

schmeky, no I was using a 230gr RN copper plated bullet before with no issues, just got the SWC on a whim.

m&p45acp10+1, "I tried 200 grain cast swc at a COL of 1.26 " seriously ??

All my manuals say a COL max is 1.2450. I don't think my mag on my Sig would even take something that long!

Jim Watson · December 9, 2009, 11:23 PM

Good luck.
My first P220 would not run semiwadcutters at all, no matter what the nose shape or OAL. It wasn't the nose, it was the shoulder. It was fine with any other bullet shape but I sold it because I did not want a gun that would not shoot the same ammo as my 1911. But I liked the type so I bought another. It is fully reliable with RN, TC, or HP and I do not ask it to try with SWCs so as to not hurt my confidence in it.

I have heard of P220s that would handle SWCs, so keep messing with it and you may hit on a combination that will at least let you use up the bullets on hand.

hans4811 · December 10, 2009, 12:54 PM

Thanks for that info Jim, good to know...that was kind of my thinking also, about the shoulder I mean. I was slowly feeding the cartridge in and watching what happens, and you can see the shoulder hitting the feed ramp at a funny angle. So, I may keep playing with it with a few more variations just to see if I can lick this issue, but no big deal. I can either just use what I got up or maybe even try and take back the 2 bags of 100 that I got left and see if the shop will let me exchange em for some good ol tried and true 230gr RN.....

bamaranger · December 11, 2009, 02:19 AM

There are some variations in SIG P220 mags out there, you might try scaring up different mag types and see what your pistol does. NOT cheap after markets, but SIG factory.

The early P220 mags were german made and had a zigzag back and a conventional looking 1911 type follower. There were also some german mags sold, and a bunch of factory followers sold, as 8 rd mags, or to convert early 7 rd mags to 8. These followers were more oval in appearance, and had a shorter "skirt" in place of "legs" (does that make ANY sense?).

The new 8 rd mags are made by Mec Gar (I think) and have a synthetic follower.

A possible option if you are hooked on the pistol, and set on shooting SWC.

hans4811 · December 13, 2009, 07:29 PM

Got a chance to get out this weekend with some of my test loads and I finally figured it out ! Once I brought down the COL to 1.2250, everything fed perfectly !

YES!!

chris in va · December 13, 2009, 11:02 PM

Excellent...great to know! How do they group?

Kyo · December 13, 2009, 11:17 PM

good to know things worked out. People should keep in mind that just because there is a maximum, you shouldn't put all of your OAL to that max all the time. grats man.

hans4811 · December 14, 2009, 02:54 PM

Thanks everyone...

The grouping with the Unique 5.6gr was very good. Best grouping was about 2" or so from 15 yds out. Ejected all fine and wasn't nearly as violent as a factory round.

And that's a good point Kyo, I was always hesitant to go deeper with a bullet, playing it safe with about a midpoint for COL. Course with a 45ACP not that big of a pressure worry, different story with say a .40SW.

Very pleased with how they shoot, especially since I bought about 300 of 'em....

Loading up the rest tonight !!

...oh and I forgot to mention, that I also made up a batch of some extra long cartridges too...to COL of 1.2600.....first off, they were harder getting into the mag, and the first one I fired stovepiped...aaaarrrggghhhh! Glad I only made about 15 of em, so I'll be pulling those tonight also!

Kyo · December 14, 2009, 04:13 PM

why pull them? Just seat them deeper in. You aren't doing anything different anyway. Pulling them to re-seat is a waste of time isn't it?

hans4811 · December 14, 2009, 08:42 PM

Right, thats what I did on the last batch...just seated em deeper. Typing before thinking...

December 7, 2009, 07:19 PM	#1
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	sig p220 and SWC issues... Hello All, First off, want to say what a great group of people here on this forum. Been reading but not posting anything as all my questions have been answered by just searching around. Everybody seems real helpful... But now I've got a question and I thought on Pearl Harbor day that it was appropriate to post my first question, seeing how our guys died for my right of being able to own a gun in the first place. I hope someone has successfully done this out there..... Been reloading for some time and I recently purchased a Sig P220. Great Gun btw... Started off with a 230 gr RN plated, BE 4.3 gr and a 1.2450 OAL..No problems. Tried some Unique at 5.6 gr and HS-6 at 7.4 gr with everything else the same...again, no problems. All fed and fired great behind CCI 300 primers. Went into my local shop to replenish some bullets and all they had was some 200 gr SWC copper plated, so I thought why not, try something different right, thats whats so fun about reloading...trying different stuff. Thats when the problems started....every mag, the first or second one, always fails to feed. Just gets stuck on the ramp and have to drop the mag to get it out. Here's my load data... 200 Gr SWC Copper plated Unique 5.6 gr, max is 5.9 I believe 1.2450 OAL +-.003 I tried dropping the OAL down to 1.2375, but same thing... Deeper maybe? Got some room to play, minimum is 1.19. Thought maybe a little hotter load, can't go much higher. My other load with the 230gr and HS-6 really throws the brass a good 7' away whereas the 200 Gr SWC and Unique just drops it at my feet or just a few feet away. hmmm.... Can't imagine the mag being a problem as I've only shot the thing half a dozen times, but I am gonna try the other mag, as I haven't done that yet. Oh, and I'm using a LEE Loadmaster with 1.) decapper 2.) resizer and prime 3.) flare and charge 4.) bullet seat 5.) FCD all from the same lot of winchester brass. Has anyone successfully used a SWC in a Sig and if so, what's your load data ? I know, just go back to shooting the RN rite, but now it's personal Plus, once I start something, I hate to give up.... Thanks so much in advance Ken Last edited by hans4811; December 7, 2009 at 07:30 PM.

December 8, 2009, 04:30 PM	#4
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	A lot of 45 ACP brands seem to have some problems with SWC's. Try different OAL and not just shorter. Maybe try a little hotter loading also. Hope you find the sweet spot. __________________ Have a nice day!

December 8, 2009, 08:49 PM	#7
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I tried 200 grain cast swc at a COL of 1.26 and had no feeding problems with my M&P 45. I did have a problem of low POI compared to POA. I remidied this by seating at 1.23 and all work well. Try a COL of 1.23 even. Mine have fed flawlessly. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you. Last edited by m&p45acp10+1; December 11, 2009 at 06:19 PM.

December 8, 2009, 09:00 PM	#8
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	I would suggest you run them from 1.22x to 1.23x and not 1.245 or higher. 4.3 grains of bullseye is plenty for that charge. __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

December 11, 2009, 02:19 AM	#12
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	mags??????? There are some variations in SIG P220 mags out there, you might try scaring up different mag types and see what your pistol does. NOT cheap after markets, but SIG factory. The early P220 mags were german made and had a zigzag back and a conventional looking 1911 type follower. There were also some german mags sold, and a bunch of factory followers sold, as 8 rd mags, or to convert early 7 rd mags to 8. These followers were more oval in appearance, and had a shorter "skirt" in place of "legs" (does that make ANY sense?). The new 8 rd mags are made by Mec Gar (I think) and have a synthetic follower. A possible option if you are hooked on the pistol, and set on shooting SWC.

December 7, 2009, 08:15 PM	#2
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Interesting...just found this in another thread... "It will not feed handloaded SWC's with over 5 in the magazine, but anything else feeds, extracts and ejects flawlessly." Anybody else....??

December 8, 2009, 02:33 PM	#3
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	My older 220 feeds anything I've bought for it, so for it to not like a SWC is really saying something. I'd stick with other bullet profiles. I've also heard about issues with SWC and 1911's, in other threads.

December 8, 2009, 06:30 PM	#5
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	I've tried the longest OAL allowable, which is 1.2450, but that jams. Alliant says 5.4gr, so I'll try that at 1.2450 and 1.2000 which is the max and min. I'll also try a little hotter, 5.8gr at 1.2450, 6.0gr at 1.2350. If none of these work, heck with it, I'll just put 5 in the mag till i run out of the SWC and just stick to what works, right!

December 8, 2009, 08:25 PM	#6
schmeky Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2006 Posts: 810	hans, Your problem obviously started when you used a different SWC bullet. My guess is you had been using the H&G #68 SWC, which is the best feeding .45 bullet in this style and weight. The #68 approximates a 230 gn RNL bullet as far as OAL and feeding are concerned. There are some short, stubby SWC's that don't feed well. The charge in powder grain weight obviously has nothing to do with feeding. Shoot up the ones you have and go back to what worked.

December 9, 2009, 11:12 PM	#9
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	"I would suggest you run them from 1.22x to 1.23x and not 1.245 or higher" Kyo, that's exactly what I just did. Created a batch of about 20 at 1.2200 and kept the powder at the same weight. Try 'em out this weekend ...keeping my fingers crossed as I still have about 300 of these things! :barf: schmeky, no I was using a 230gr RN copper plated bullet before with no issues, just got the SWC on a whim. m&p45acp10+1, "I tried 200 grain cast swc at a COL of 1.26 " seriously ?? All my manuals say a COL max is 1.2450. I don't think my mag on my Sig would even take something that long!

December 9, 2009, 11:23 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Good luck. My first P220 would not run semiwadcutters at all, no matter what the nose shape or OAL. It wasn't the nose, it was the shoulder. It was fine with any other bullet shape but I sold it because I did not want a gun that would not shoot the same ammo as my 1911. But I liked the type so I bought another. It is fully reliable with RN, TC, or HP and I do not ask it to try with SWCs so as to not hurt my confidence in it. I have heard of P220s that would handle SWCs, so keep messing with it and you may hit on a combination that will at least let you use up the bullets on hand.

December 10, 2009, 12:54 PM	#11
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Thanks for that info Jim, good to know...that was kind of my thinking also, about the shoulder I mean. I was slowly feeding the cartridge in and watching what happens, and you can see the shoulder hitting the feed ramp at a funny angle. So, I may keep playing with it with a few more variations just to see if I can lick this issue, but no big deal. I can either just use what I got up or maybe even try and take back the 2 bags of 100 that I got left and see if the shop will let me exchange em for some good ol tried and true 230gr RN.....

December 13, 2009, 07:29 PM	#13
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Got a chance to get out this weekend with some of my test loads and I finally figured it out ! Once I brought down the COL to 1.2250, everything fed perfectly ! YES!!

December 13, 2009, 11:02 PM	#14
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Excellent...great to know! How do they group?

December 13, 2009, 11:17 PM	#15
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	good to know things worked out. People should keep in mind that just because there is a maximum, you shouldn't put all of your OAL to that max all the time. grats man. __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

December 14, 2009, 02:54 PM	#16
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Thanks everyone... The grouping with the Unique 5.6gr was very good. Best grouping was about 2" or so from 15 yds out. Ejected all fine and wasn't nearly as violent as a factory round. And that's a good point Kyo, I was always hesitant to go deeper with a bullet, playing it safe with about a midpoint for COL. Course with a 45ACP not that big of a pressure worry, different story with say a .40SW. Very pleased with how they shoot, especially since I bought about 300 of 'em.... Loading up the rest tonight !! ...oh and I forgot to mention, that I also made up a batch of some extra long cartridges too...to COL of 1.2600.....first off, they were harder getting into the mag, and the first one I fired stovepiped...aaaarrrggghhhh! Glad I only made about 15 of em, so I'll be pulling those tonight also!

December 14, 2009, 04:13 PM	#17
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	why pull them? Just seat them deeper in. You aren't doing anything different anyway. Pulling them to re-seat is a waste of time isn't it? __________________ 1. The gun is *always* loaded. 2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot. 4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

December 14, 2009, 08:42 PM	#18
hans4811 Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Northeast FLA Posts: 44	Right, thats what I did on the last batch...just seated em deeper. Typing before thinking...