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Old November 28, 2021, 07:10 PM   #26
jmr40
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Can't go wrong with the Ruger P series, the pistol that was runner up to the Beretta 92 in the Army handgun trials in the 80s.
Ruger had so many issues they withdrew from the trials and didn't finish. The guns they entered were pre-production units. They did work out the bugs and made a decent gun, but it isn't in the same class as the others.

The Sig slightly outperformed the Beretta, but the military doesn't choose the winner. They had a set of criteria. Either you meet the criteria or you don't. Both met the criteria. Beretta was chosen because they offered a better price. Sig was 2nd choice only because of costs.
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Old November 28, 2021, 07:19 PM   #27
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The Sig slightly outperformed the Beretta, but the military doesn't choose the winner. They had a set of criteria. Either you meet the criteria or you don't. Both met the criteria. Beretta was chosen because they offered a better price. Sig was 2nd choice only because of costs.
Interesting story from the West German police 9mm pistol trials in the late 1970s that selected the Walther P5, SIG Sauer P6, and Heckler-Koch P7. While all three were approved, the SIG, a slightly modified P225, was most popular because it had the *lowest* overall lifecycle cost.
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Old November 28, 2021, 08:47 PM   #28
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Ruger had so many issues they withdrew from the trials and didn't finish.
There is no reference to Ruger in any of the trial materials I've seen. As far as I can tell they didn't have an entrant ready for the trials.
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The Sig slightly outperformed the Beretta, but the military doesn't choose the winner.
The SIG actually failed one component of the 1984 trials but the military allowed it to continue to the bid phase anyway because they felt overall it was a good pistol and also because eliminating it would have left Beretta the only entrant--so there would have been no competitive bid.

https://www.gao.gov/assets/nsiad-86-122.pdf
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The Sig slightly outperformed the Beretta, but the military doesn't choose the winner.
Incorrect.

The SACO entrant failed the dry mud test in 1984 while Beretta passed all the tests.
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They had a set of criteria. Either you meet the criteria or you don't. Both met the criteria. Beretta was chosen because they offered a better price.
If you look at just the overall cost of the package Beretta offered, it was cheaper, but that is because their magazines/spare parts package (especially the magazines) was significantly cheaper than SACO's magazines/spare parts package. If you just look at the cost of the guns themselves, Beretta actually charged more per pistol than SACO.

Ironically, the military chose Beretta's cheaper overall bid (based primarily on the cheaper mags for the Beretta) and then chose to outsource the mags to Checkmate. Even more ironically, the military allegedly told Checkmate to parkerize the magazines, both inside and outside against Checkmate's objections which likely resulted in a large portion of the problems the Checkmate mags experienced in Iraq. A rough inside surface on a magazine is not a great choice for use in fine sand.
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Old November 28, 2021, 09:39 PM   #29
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no question

For me there would be no question.......SIG. I've shot, and fired and seen fired a lot of rounds thru assorted SIG P-series pistols with a very high degree of reliabiity. SIGS are also very accurate pistols.
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Old November 28, 2021, 10:24 PM   #30
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While I love my SIGs, depending on how much money and effort you want to devote to your quest, take a hard look at S&W 5906 (full size, double stack 9mm), 4006 (ditto in .40 S&W) and/or 3913 (compact, single stack 9mm). You won't find a DA/SA with a better trigger, in either DA or SA. All three are utterly reliable, built like brick digestive product disposal facilities, and have a feel in the hand that makes good shooting easy.
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Old November 29, 2021, 12:21 PM   #31
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Let me put the CZ-75 out there. One of the best DA/SA handguns out there, and a steal. Comes in different sizes/calibers, etc. to suit your fancy.
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Old November 29, 2021, 02:27 PM   #32
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Thank you, folks. This has has been very helpful. I'm glad that I joined this platform.
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Old November 29, 2021, 03:02 PM   #33
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P220 in 45 ACP.
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Old November 29, 2021, 03:18 PM   #34
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P220 in 45 ACP.

Thanks, but I'm looking for a 9mm. My 45 is a Rock Island Armory 1911A2 TAC Ultra FS HC.
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Old November 29, 2021, 06:49 PM   #35
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I wish MecGar would tool up for 2011 magazines. I would expect better reliability, no "tuning" and lower price.

What caliber is your 2011? Mine is 45 ACP that uses Para-Ordinance P14 mags made by Mec-Gar. They work perfectly. No tuning needed.
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Old November 29, 2021, 06:57 PM   #36
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I have a couple 226s in my collection, and I don't think I could ask for better. One is an older German one that I have owned for probably 25 years and shot a lot. It has never failed me and I would still not hesitate to reach for it in an emergency.
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Old November 29, 2021, 07:35 PM   #37
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I’ve owned probably a dozen classic series SIGs, with a mix of P226s, P228s, and P229s and I carried P228s and P229s for a few years. I did all of this only having some experience with the Beretta 92 series and convincing myself that the SIG was superior. A few years ago I finally purchased a Beretta 92A1. It may be my favorite 9mm pistol to shoot, more than the SIGs. I converted it to a decocker only with the kit Beretta sells, added some parts from Beretta like the match hammer and the Langdon Tactical trigger bar and the reset puts my SIG with the short reset trigger to shame.

Kudos to John for pointing out the results of the trials. Years on here and the results of the SIG with the dried mud test somehow always get ignored. IIRC it lead to the so called “mud rails” on some SIG pistols where the rails were scalloped to provide a place for debris to be cleared (this was not a long lived change). I had one such pistol that was a Herndon, VA SigArms import before they were in NH.


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Old November 29, 2021, 08:45 PM   #38
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Since the OP says weight is not an issue, I suggest looking at the CZ97B if a 45 is desirable. I love mine as well as my 2 1911s. Same operation as it can be carried cocked and locked OR hammer down for DA/SA operation.
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Old November 29, 2021, 09:11 PM   #39
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Maybe don't forget the CZ P-01 Omega or SP-01 Tactical.

Not better than the others, but decocking SA/DA like the others.

The Sig P226 in anything but Pro Cut and Legion just don't exist right now. I know, my credit card wants one for over 7 months now.


The Beretta is really hot right now with the X. Vertic frame? oh yeah.
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Old November 29, 2021, 09:52 PM   #40
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If you want a CZ they make a few models with the omega trigger system. This allows you to swap from safety to decocker style plus the controls are ambi.

IMO the CZ P07/09 are highly underrated pistols.

I'll take a CZ over a Sig any day of week.

Just bite the bullet...get a shadow 2 and everything else will collect dust.
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Old November 29, 2021, 10:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by sevt_chevelle
I'll take a CZ over a Sig any day of week.
Not me, but as this thread shows opinions vary a lot.
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Old November 30, 2021, 01:13 AM   #42
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Kudos to John for pointing out the results of the trials. Years on here and the results of the SIG with the dried mud test somehow always get ignored. IIRC it lead to the so called “mud rails” on some SIG pistols where the rails were scalloped to provide a place for debris to be cleared (this was not a long lived change). I had one such pistol that was a Herndon, VA SigArms import before they were in NH.
The SIGs are great guns, no question about it. Somehow I've never ended up with a SIG, but it's not because I think poorly of them. I have friends who own them and are happy with them and the ones I've shot have been very accurate.
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Old November 30, 2021, 08:16 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by sevt_chevelle View Post
If you want a CZ they make a few models with the omega trigger system. This allows you to swap from safety to decocker style plus the controls are ambi.

IMO the CZ P07/09 are highly underrated pistols.

I'll take a CZ over a Sig any day of week.

Just bite the bullet...get a shadow 2 and everything else will collect dust.

A year or so ago, I was considering a Shadow. The other contenders were the Walther Q5 Match (steel frame) and the Sig Sauer P320 X5 Legion. I went with the Legion and I have no regrets. I am strongly considering the CZ75B.
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Old November 30, 2021, 09:29 AM   #44
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Having a P-09, I find their current resurgence highly overrated. The trigger at best was crap and total mush. I also found my SP-01 to have the same crap trigger. Probably nothing has a worse trigger on the market than a CZ. Reset is huge, mush that is defined by having no idea when the travel will end, far forward DA.

But I did say don't exclude the CZs from your search

I think the Beretta X is the best "deal" on the market right now in 17rnd, 15rnd, and 13rnd and smaller grip frame. Only thing wrong is the rounded trigger guard...doh! Otherwise, you aren't going to spend less than 600 with an optics ready metal frame gun that isn't the AREX or Witness.

I say rule out the Shadow. No other gun out there has the firing pin block removed and CZ's decocking on the gun is clearly not a design to be a working decocker.

Sig, bring back the real P226 X5s and just take our money.
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Last edited by wild cat mccane; November 30, 2021 at 09:38 AM.
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Old November 30, 2021, 09:36 AM   #45
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Having a P-09, I find their current resurgence highly overrated. The trigger at best was crap and total mush.

I think the Beretta X is the best "deal" on the market right now in 17rnd, 15rnd, and 13rnd and smaller grip frame. Only thing wrong is the rounded trigger guard...doh! Otherwise, you aren't going to spend less than 600 with an optics ready metal frame gun that isn't the AREX or Witness.

I have a Beretta Model 92 Compact L. It's a great gun. I'm not looking for another. I'm an instructor, so I like to expand my first-hand knowledge of guns. I don't have anything in the P226-like or CZ75-like families of guns. That's why I'm looking at similar guns to those I have listed.
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Old November 30, 2021, 09:38 AM   #46
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Not me, but as this thread shows opinions vary a lot.

What I like about this thread and the people in it is there are plenty of options and nobody is bashing anyone else for differing favorites.
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Old November 30, 2021, 09:51 AM   #47
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The AREX is tempting for me too.

It's a shame the run of the mill P226 Enhanced E with SRT isn't being made right now. At its normal pricing around 600, that is the no brainer. But it isn't being made right now. The Legion is mostly the Enhanced but with smaller controls and stuff no one but a Legion fan cares about and has a crappy coating. The Legion really needs to go away. Take the MK25 and Extreme with it. Bring back normal priced P226 E, have a variant with the SRT and AEP, and a $1,500 X5.

I have a thought though on the AREX. The CZ clone SAR B6. Everything about it should be good. But the trigger isn't great, it's not +P rated, and the gun is SS making you realize that SS is a cost cutter. Not one youtube on it showed anything but it fires a bullet and that's it's accuracy.

Yeah, the AREX might be a good cheap way to go as a CZ99/P226 clonish...but I have some doubts on long term and Sig just might have enough better quality in it to make accuracy better... However, I was just looking at them yesterday too.
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Last edited by wild cat mccane; November 30, 2021 at 10:00 AM.
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Old November 30, 2021, 09:58 AM   #48
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The AREX is tempting for me too.

It's a shame the run of the mill P226 Enhanced E isn't being made right now. At its normal pricing around 600, that is the no brainer. But it isn't being made right now. The Legion is mostly the Enhanced minus stuff no but P226 fan cares about and has a crappy coating. The Legion really needs to go away.

I have a thought though on the AREX. The CZ clone SAR B6. Everything about it should be good. But the trigger isn't great, it's not +P rated, and the gun is SS making you realize that SS is a cost cutter. Not one youtube on it showed anything but it fires a bullet and that's it's accuracy.

Yeah, the AREX might be a good cheap way to go as a CZ99/P226 clonish...but I have some doubts on long term and Sig just might have enough better quality in it to make accuracy better... However, I was just looking at them yesterday too.

I've handled the Arex and a 226 in the same session. I liked the Arex trigger better than the 226. The price point is very enticing. I'm going to do some fishing around YouTube for 1,000 round reviews of the Arex.
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Old November 30, 2021, 09:59 AM   #49
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If you find something on accuracy, post up the link please!
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Old November 30, 2021, 10:02 AM   #50
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Agreed on this forum being better than most.

I totally and frequently trash CZ for having it's horrible trigger that can't be matched for it's crappiness. No one cares.
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