Todays problem

[alanwk]

Today I loaded 40 S&W cartridges. I have been reloading for a while. SO I decapped,& resized and checked the fit in case gauge. All was ok. Then after charging the case and seating the bullet and then crimping with Lee Factory Crimp Die the cartridge is way too tight (wont fit) for case gauge. This is a first for me. What am I missing? Thanks

[lugerstew]

Did you bell the case mouths before seating the bullet, do the finished rounds plunk nicely in the barrel of the gun?

[Unclenick]

If you over-crimped to the point it swelled the case, the carbide ring on the Carbide Factory Crimp Die should iron it out. If it didn't, and especially if you didn't feel any resistance against the ring as you withdrew the case, then there is a dimensional mismatch somewhere. You can put some Magic Marker on the case and see where it is rubbing the gauge. That will give a clue. Make sure your bullets aren't too fat to pass through the part of the gauge they need to go through.

Per Lugerstew's point, your barrel is really the best ammo gauge for your gun. The separate check gauges confirm the ability of the ammo to fit in all guns chambered for the same round. But your concern will be with your own gun rather than everyone else's, and your chamber isn't likely to be at exact diameter minimum size and so it may pass rounds the check gauge does not.

[Aguila Blanca]

What case gauge are you using, and how far do the rounds go into the gauge before hanging up?

Do the rounds chamber in your barrel?

[RC20]

Most of my 9mm reloads when I was doing that caliber would not fit the Wilson gauge.

they fit fine in the Pistol chamber.

[Metal god]

My bet is to little crimp and the bell on the mouth is hanging up the case in ghe gauge . I seen this when adjusting dies for belling and crimping

[FrankenMauser]

Sounds like over-crimping while relying on the false belief that the FCD will absolve all sins.

[Metal god]

The crimp die needs to be set very wrong to cause over crimping to fail a case gauge . On the other hand to much bell and to little crimp is very easy to have and a 1/4 turn on the crimp die will resolve it . As Unclenick points out the carbide ring should squeeze that crimp bulge out , that’s one of the reason I think it’s to little of a crimp . That and I’ve had this same thing come up before and a tad more crimp let the cartridge pass the gauge test .

[Average Joe]

Try putting a little more crimp, see what happens....

[44 AMP]

Then after charging the case and seating the bullet and then crimping with Lee Factory Crimp Die the cartridge is way too tight (wont fit) for case gauge.

And this is one of the reasons why I don't bother with a cartridge case gauge.

I also don't use the Lee FCD, but that's another matter...

The only "case gauge" that matters is the gun you're going to be shooting that ammo from. If it works in your gun, its all good. If it doesn't, its no good. All that not fitting in some gauge tells you is that it didn't fit in that gauge.

I use calipers to check length, and often for rough diameter measurement, when I need a more precise diameter measurement I use a micrometer, or other tool made for that job. For me, a case gauge is an unneeded step and a waste of time and money.

You're welcome to think otherwise.

[Metal god]

The only "case gauge" that matters is the gun you're going to be shooting that ammo from. If it works in your gun, its all good. If it doesn't, its no good. All that not fitting in some gauge tells you is that it didn't fit in that gauge

This is a good point however I’d like to ask a question to everyone. How many times have you checked one of your reloads in a gauge and it passed properly and that same round would not chamber in your gun because one of the things the gauge measures was the cause of it failing to chamber ?

Meaning if the gauge only test headspace and diameter. The failure can’t be the bullet was seated to long etc .

[74A95]

Originally Posted by alanwk

Today I loaded 40 S&W cartridges. I have been reloading for a while. SO I decapped,& resized and checked the fit in case gauge. All was ok. Then after charging the case and seating the bullet and then crimping with Lee Factory Crimp Die the cartridge is way too tight (wont fit) for case gauge. This is a first for me. What am I missing? Thanks

You can determine exactly why it doesn't fit, then know how to fix it, if you use a magic marker as explained in this article;

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...unk-test/99389

[Shadow9mm]

That sounds like a good idea. Until it had to go through a couple guns and you have to plunk test multiple cartridges in multiple barrels.

I personally prefer the EGW gauges. they are a touch tight, and a little expensive, but work well. I check EVERY round that comes off my progressive press.... I usually have 5-10 fail out of 1000rnds. Usually a 2nd pass through the crimp die will fix the problem. And after some testing, about 1/2 the time if it fails the gauge, it will fail the plunk test too..

[FrankenMauser]

Inspection should take place during setup and production, not after the fact.
Be Mitutoyo, not Chrysler.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by shadow9mm

I personally prefer the EGW gauges. they are a touch tight, and a little expensive, but work well.

I also highly recommend the EGW cartridge gauges for checking finished ammunition. However, I have to disagree that they are a "touch tight." What they are is reamed precisely to SAAMI minimum chamber dimensions for each caliber. And that's the whole point of using a cartridge gauge -- to ensure that the rounds will fit not just this gun, but every gun. Since the SAAMI dimensions are the industry standard, the only way to ensure that a round will fit a gun with a minimum chamber is to check it with a gauge made to the minimum chamber dimensions.

Some people use Wilson "case" gauges to check finished rounds, but those aren't intended for checking finished rounds. Those are for checking fired cases to see if they need to be trimmed. That's why in post #4 I asked the OP what gauge he was using to check his rounds.

[44 AMP]

And after some testing, about 1/2 the time if it fails the gauge, it will fail the plunk test too..

And so about half the time a round that fails the gauge works fine in your pistol...so the reality is, if it fails the gauge, you don't know it won't work in your gun...until you put that ammo in your gun (or at least in the barrel).

By your own admission (about half the time) 50% of the ammo rejected by your gauge is usable in your gun.

That does not fill me with confidence about your gauge. If it does for you, use it and be happy.

[Metal god]

What does his gauge have to do with this and your confidence . The gauge is the one thing in all of this that never changes and is the one constant . If anything I would loose confidence in his reloading process not the gauge .

In my scenario/theory of the OP having too much flare and not enough crimp . I would suspect the way he describes his problem as being consistent with that theory . Especially if he is using mixed brass with varying case wall thicknesses .

If I have a problem with any aspect of this thread ? it is the OP not coming back and answering questions and/or giving updates of where he’s at . I’ve noticed that this is somethings he does with all of his threads so far . He asks the question and maybe comes back once but then is MIA for days leaving all kinds of unanswered questions.

[44 AMP]

What does his gauge have to do with this and your confidence . The gauge is the one thing in all of this that never changes and is the one constant .

It has to do with the way I look at things, I suppose. If a gauge says "it won't fit" and half of what it says won't fit DOES FIT, that says to me the gauge isn't doing what I expect.

It would be obvious if it were the other way around, and half of what passed the gauge didn't fit. Would you trust that gauge then??

I wouldn't. I trust the gun I'm shooting it in more than the gauge. And, when there's more than one gun going to use that ammo, I test it in all the guns that will be using it.

Remember, I'm not making ammo to fit every gun in the country like an ammo company does. I'm making what works for me, and my guns. And, on those occasions when some one has asked me to reload ammo for their gun, I expect them to leave me their gun, and if they won't, they won't get ammo from me.

My point here is that any gauge or measuring device that gives you up to
"about half" false positives or false negatives is not a trustworthy device and doesn't inspire me with confidence.

No matter what the OP's reloading practices, I think that when what passes the gauge works and half of what doesn't pass the gauge ALSO works, its not the reloading practices alone. The gun also matters, too.

If the gun is "more forgiving" of dimensional tolerance than the gauge, what then is the main benefit of the gauge?

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by lugerstew

Did you bell the case mouths before seating the bullet, do the finished rounds plunk nicely in the barrel of the gun?

They won't fit in the barrel. They should fit in the chamber.

[Metal god]

My point here is that any gauge or measuring device that gives you up to
"about half" false positives or false negatives is not a trustworthy device and doesn't inspire me with confidence.

Yep we are looking at this through completely different lenses . The gauge is fine , it's his reloading practices that is resulting in 50% failure . The gauge just sits there and says to me , 50% of the time he is screwing something up while reloading . If my way of looking at it is accurate that makes the gauge worth while .

I use the gauges when setting up my pistol dies all the time . OK not "all the time" because I only set them up once really but I do use them . That's why I think it's to little crimp rather then to much . We've all heard and or read , don't over flare/bell or crimp the cases .

What I do is flare/bell just enough the allow bullet to sit on top of the case with out tipping and does not shave any material when being seated . Once bullet is seated I do a very light crimp and see if it passes the gauge . Many times it does not and hangs up because there is still to much flare/bell so I crimp a little more and retest in the gauge . I repeat until it passes the plunk test in the gauge . I then plunk test that in all my firearms that cartridge will be fired in . To date if it passes the gauge it has passed the plunk test in all firearms I tested them in .

I should note this is pistol loads 9mm & 45acp and for range practice and plinking . I have never tried to load custom match pistol loads for a specific firearm like I do with many rifle cartridges .

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

By your own admission (about half the time) 50% of the ammo rejected by your gauge is usable in your gun.

That does not fill me with confidence about your gauge. If it does for you, use it and be happy.

Why is this a condemnation of the gauge? The gauge (if it is a proper cartridge gauge like the EGW, rather than a case gauge like the Wilson) is intentionally made to minimum SAAMI specs. If the gun has a sloppy chamber, ammo that's just a wee tad over specs will be rejected by the gauge but still load in a sloppy chamber. That's not an indication of a problem with the gauge.

Conversely, if you find cartridges that pass the gauge but won't chamber in an in-spec barrel, then you have reason to criticize the gauge.

[44 AMP]

The gauge, as a mechanical object may be fine. Its the results that bother me. SO perhaps I should have said something like "the gauge and the way its being used..." or to be inclusive, the gauge, his reload, the way the gauge is uses, AND his gun....

Again, its probably a point of view thing, I make reloads to work in a gun or several guns, not to work in a gauge.

From where i sit, with "about half" of the rounds his gauge use rejects work in his gun. Now, yes, identifying WHY the gauge rejects them is important, so the error can be fixed, but with so many "false negatives" something isn't right.

I want a system that shows me, clearly what does nd doesn't fit in my gun(s). If every round the gauge passed fit fine and every round the gauge failed wouldn't fit, I'd be fine with that, that's the way its supposed to work.

But he said about half the fails in the gauge work in his gun. That's NOT the way its supposed to work. I can't (and won't) say from here exactly what isn't right, but something isn't right.

SO, I amend my statement to "the results you're getting don't fill me with confidence.

[101combatvet]

Originally Posted by alanwk

Today I loaded 40 S&W cartridges. I have been reloading for a while. SO I decapped,& resized and checked the fit in case gauge. All was ok. Then after charging the case and seating the bullet and then crimping with Lee Factory Crimp Die the cartridge is way too tight (wont fit) for case gauge. This is a first for me. What am I missing? Thanks

No reason for the crimp; if you must do it, use a very lite crimp.