ATF and pistol braces ? - Page 17

rickyrick · April 8, 2023, 07:47 PM

I came here out of confusion.

I did not fully realize that there had been a rule change, until stagpanther’s post in the semiauto forum. It’s been a long year and half and haven’t kept up with current events.
When I googled the topic, the result was that I must surrender, destroy or register the firearm.

Reading through this thread I see that just destroying any braces in your possession will suffice.

I have a very small brace which had the only purpose of helping the gun stand up in the safe like the rifles. Never used it to aid in shooting in any way.

I find it very concerning that there may be lots of Americans that will become unwitting felons because of this.

**JohnKSa** · April 8, 2023, 11:17 PM

Quote:

I'm not a lawyer. I'm under the impression there is a presumption of innocence till proven guilty of a crime. Did we give that up?

What I wrote above isn't a commentary on how I think things should be, it's an explanation of how things are based on my understanding of the situation.

Ok, that said, as far as I can see, the presumption of innocence is still there. That is, even if you COULD assemble your parts into an illegal configuration, you are still presumed to be innocent if there's any possible way that you could assemble them so that they are legal. You only get into trouble if you have a combination of parts and NO possible way to make them into a firearm that is legal/unregulated.

Quote:

A two gallon can of gasoline in the shed for the lawn mower is not a crime,even if (in some strange mind) I COULD do something nefarious with it.

Right.

stagpanther · April 9, 2023, 01:15 AM

Here's the elephant in the room--(in my opinion):

The entire cornerstone that AR pistols are based on--unless you purchased one that was completely assembled and the serial number was registered at the time of purchase as being a pistol (not "other")--is the whole (ridiculous) idea that the receiver was "born" into a first incarnation as a pistol receiver.

No procedures or basis of proof guidance was ever given as to how to prove that.

Now I can see myself in court being asked by the prosecutor:

"Mr Stag, you have a large inventory of AR parts, and guns in various configurations, including several barrels that could be readily made into unregistered SBRs"

Me: "Sir, I bought those receivers and barrels and I swear that the first time I ever put a barrel into the receiver (took its viriginity, so to speak)--it was in a pistol configuration. I even took pictures the day I assembled the pistol."

Prosecutor: "Obviously anyone can do that with any receiver--can you provide any soiid proof or witnesses to the entire procedure from the moment you purchased the receiver that would conclusively preclude simply using any receiver that happened to be lying around, regardless of its previous barrels inserted?"

Me: "Well, I'm a nice and honest guy, you'll have take my word for it."

Nathan · April 9, 2023, 10:23 AM

Quote:

A two gallon can of gasoline in the shed for the lawn mower is not a crime,even if (in some strange mind) I COULD do something nefarious with it.

But a 2gal gas can and you post on “TheFiringLine.com” ……=terrorist. Red flag order coming with SWAT this afternoon!

**44 AMP** · April 9, 2023, 03:49 PM

Also better check and see if your state has a "fuel capacity feeding device limit" as well!

We do our best to comply with the laws AND the regulations, but some days its hard.....

As I understand it, (and I could be in error,) if you have a "Stock" (the artist formerly known as "Brace"

) that is not, and no longer can be attached to your pistol, its not a problem.

This is what the ATF always did with "stocked pistols". You could have a Luger, or Mauser Broomhandle or a Hi power, AND its stock, PROVIDED either the gun or the stock was modified so they could not be attached together. You didn't need to destroy the stock, as long as it couldn't be attached to the pistol, the ATF no longer cared about it.

That being said, do keep in mind that "past performance is no guarantee of future actions" and the ATF has a long history of "changing its mind" about these things.

Take the brace off, do something to it so it cannot be reattached and then repurpose it for some other use, or toss it, in the scrap bin, if it isn't on the gun, and can't go on the gun there is nothing to make a case of "unregistered SBR" on.

Just my opinion, and in no way valid legal advice.

Maybe get a second "former brace", and mod them both to make a nice shelf with them....

Nathan · April 9, 2023, 04:39 PM

Quote:

I find it very concerning that there may be lots of Americans that will become unwitting felons because of this.

I’m pretty sure they already are felons….according to how the law works. Rules from the supreme leader are less clear. May is the end of some grace period. Then they say they have no intention of enforcing it….well, until they do.

I guess I’m struggling with the new concept where you order Congress to pass a law. They don’t do it. Then from the position of “supreme leader” you demand your people start arresting law abiding citizens for what YOU say is illegal. Then you don’t actually arrest them. Hmm…

Trump did it with bumpstocks. Biden doing it with braces.

What keeps him from just declaring all gun owners without government permission as felons? I’m not really getting the nuance here. Remember, guns will never be banned because then “private armies” cannot be formed to protect important people.

**Aguila Blanca** · April 9, 2023, 05:02 PM

Gentlepersons, we are straying from a discussion of laws and regulations into conjecture and political conspiracy territory. Kindly remember why the former Legal and Political discussion area had to be closed down. Let's not have the same thing happen here.

In other words ... just fly the mission.

Rothdel · April 10, 2023, 11:36 AM

So as Aguila suggested in an effort to get back on track can anyone provide a current update in terms of what one needs to do to stay legal based on where the situation is today?

Also if you apply for the free tax stamp can you only use a pistol brace or can you convert to a more conventional stock?

Screwball · April 10, 2023, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rothdel

So as Aguila suggested in an effort to get back on track can anyone provide a current update in terms of what one needs to do to stay legal based on where the situation is today?

Also if you apply for the free tax stamp can you only use a pistol brace or can you convert to a more conventional stock?

You are in possession of an unregistered SBR… options include remove brace to keep it a pistol or register it as an SBR on the ATF’s website that is dedicated to the rule. ATF is not going to move on anything until 6/1. If you have a submitted Form 1 for the braced pistol, you are “in compliance” after the end of the amnesty. It states that you just need to submit it to keep the brace, not get it approved.

Once submitted, it transfers to your eForm account and you will get it as any other Form 1… minus an actual stamp (it’s an approval, you didn’t pay the tax, thus cannot get the tax stamp).

I have 5 out of 6 back… all of those 5 are now running stocks. It is an SBR. ATF has that info on their FAQ section on the rule page.

sfwusc · April 16, 2023, 03:32 PM

I have some questions about the from 1

Does any picture of the RP work?

Do I need to submit a picture of the braced pistol?

Description and the reason : Is saying you are registering a brace pistol due to the ATF rule work?

CLEO : Do you just list the sheriff or do you call them to see if they have a person in the department that handles these things?

Electric Documents : If you are just a person and not a Trust, then you don't have any of these right?

Side note : this is a pain.

zeke · April 17, 2023, 08:07 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms6M7gR6rj4

For those still interested, the first preliminary injunction request has recently failed. Something about not meeting the need for a preliminary injunction.

stagpanther · April 17, 2023, 10:24 AM

Quote:

For those still interested, the first preliminary injunction request has recently failed. Something about not meeting the need for a preliminary injunction.

I have to guess that the people actually following this ruling carefully are actually a very small percentage of overall AR pistol owners--I haven't seen any mention in widespread commercial media about it. I think a whole lot of people are going to end up felons without having an idea why.

zeke · April 17, 2023, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stagpanther

I have to guess that the people actually following this ruling carefully are actually a very small percentage of overall AR pistol owners--I haven't seen any mention in widespread commercial media about it. I think a whole lot of people are going to end up felons without having an idea why.

i certainly couldn't disagree with that. Am also gonna comply, even if disagreeing.

stagpanther · April 17, 2023, 12:54 PM

Quote:

i certainly couldn't disagree with that. Am also gonna comply, even if disagreeing.

I already converted all my AR pistols to rifles--not worth it to me to worry about. Just my choice--not saying anyone else should cave and do the same. Now I'm contemplating how to convert my regular AR's into bolt action rifles--which I figure we're about 5 years or less away from dealing with.

dogtown tom · April 17, 2023, 07:11 PM

Quote:

sfwusc I have some questions about the from 1

Does any picture of the RP work?

No.
It needs to be "passport style" meaning a headshot from the front.

Quote:

Do I need to submit a picture of the braced pistol?

Not required, but ATF may request a photo to verify that markings on the firearm are what you say they are.

Quote:

Description and the reason : Is saying you are registering a brace pistol due to the ATF rule work?

"Any and all legal reasons"

Quote:

CLEO : Do you just list the sheriff or do you call them to see if they have a person in the department that handles these things?

It's not necessarily the sheriff. Silencer Shop processes more NFA forms than anyone and doesn't send them to sheriffs.
The instructions on every paper Form 1 or 4 lists who is considered the CLEO.

Just send it to the one you want and addressed to the CLEO......not to his Chief Assistant Administrative Assistant. Then forget about it. You don't need a receipt.

Quote:

Electric Documents : If you are just a person and not a Trust, then you don't have any of these right?

Probably not.

Side note : this is a pain.

dogtown tom · April 17, 2023, 07:12 PM

Quote:

stagpanther
I have to guess that the people actually following this ruling carefully are actually a very small percentage of overall AR pistol owners--I haven't seen any mention in widespread commercial media about it. I think a whole lot of people are going to end up felons without having an idea why.

Same thing happened in 1934.

rickyrick · April 17, 2023, 07:15 PM

Quote:

I already converted all my AR pistols to rifles--not worth it to me to worry about. Just my choice--not saying anyone else should cave and do the same. Now I'm contemplating how to convert my regular AR's into bolt action rifles--which I figure we're about 5 years or less away from dealing with.

This rule change almost caught me off guard. But by Tuesday night, I will no longer have an AR pistol.

I figure that one day I’ll have to convert ARs to bolt-actions too, lol.
I would think that removing the gas tube and installing the gas block 180deg will make them a straight-pull bolt action haha.

zeke · May 24, 2023, 10:18 AM

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...ation-99547060

Am not a lawyer, and don't understand how this wouldn't affect more than those directly involved, but it is not going to stop me from detaching one brace before the deadline. And yes, have other firearm the brace can legally be attached to.

**44 AMP** · May 24, 2023, 01:18 PM

1) It's internet news....

2) It's from ABC.com.......

3) it contains numerous factual errors, and opinion presented as fact....and some statements I would consider actual lies....

It is a piece of crap, not worth paying any attention to...(my opinion)

zeke · May 24, 2023, 01:49 PM

ya don't believe anything but certain news? I'm shocked i tell ya, absolutely shocked. Did see a copy of the supposed ruling but it was pretty vague and non specific.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...sive=1&title=1

https://www.thetrace.org/2023/05/ar-...-court-ruling/

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fed...ation-deadline

And am not vouching for the veracity, or news organizations

Paul B. · May 24, 2023, 02:00 PM

"At least three million guns with stabilizing braces are in circulation in the U.S., according to the ATF. Other estimates place the number much higher."

Interesting. I keep getting E-mail from GOA about Biden banning pistol braces starting June first but the number supposedly in country is 40,000,000. Then they ask you to sign their petition and send money. I've heard that Biden wants to ban handguns period! Problem is the E-mail hints that it's just pistol braces. be nice if they'd be more explicit in what they want done.
Paul B.

**Aguila Blanca** · May 24, 2023, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

be nice if they'd be more explicit in what they want done.

They want you to send them money. How much more explicit do you want it?

TunnelRat · May 24, 2023, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

"At least three million guns with stabilizing braces are in circulation in the U.S., according to the ATF. Other estimates place the number much higher."

Interesting. I keep getting E-mail from GOA about Biden banning pistol braces starting June first but the number supposedly in country is 40,000,000.

Hence the “much higher” part of the quote.

MarkCO · May 24, 2023, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

They want you to send them money. How much more explicit do you want it?

Come over and offer to write the check...

rickyrick · May 24, 2023, 06:13 PM

I made mine into a rifle, so that’s done.

I wouldn’t have known about this except I stumbled onto the topic here

April 8, 2023, 07:47 PM	#401
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,296	I came here out of confusion. I did not fully realize that there had been a rule change, until stagpanther’s post in the semiauto forum. It’s been a long year and half and haven’t kept up with current events. When I googled the topic, the result was that I must surrender, destroy or register the firearm. Reading through this thread I see that just destroying any braces in your possession will suffice. I have a very small brace which had the only purpose of helping the gun stand up in the safe like the rifles. Never used it to aid in shooting in any way. I find it very concerning that there may be lots of Americans that will become unwitting felons because of this. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

April 9, 2023, 01:15 AM	#403
stagpanther Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2014 Posts: 12,384	Here's the elephant in the room--(in my opinion): The entire cornerstone that AR pistols are based on--unless you purchased one that was completely assembled and the serial number was registered at the time of purchase as being a pistol (not "other")--is the whole (ridiculous) idea that the receiver was "born" into a first incarnation as a pistol receiver. No procedures or basis of proof guidance was ever given as to how to prove that. Now I can see myself in court being asked by the prosecutor: "Mr Stag, you have a large inventory of AR parts, and guns in various configurations, including several barrels that could be readily made into unregistered SBRs" Me: "Sir, I bought those receivers and barrels and I swear that the first time I ever put a barrel into the receiver (took its viriginity, so to speak)--it was in a pistol configuration. I even took pictures the day I assembled the pistol." Prosecutor: "Obviously anyone can do that with any receiver--can you provide any soiid proof or witnesses to the entire procedure from the moment you purchased the receiver that would conclusively preclude simply using any receiver that happened to be lying around, regardless of its previous barrels inserted?" Me: "Well, I'm a nice and honest guy, you'll have take my word for it." __________________ "Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill *I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!*

April 9, 2023, 03:49 PM	#405
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 29,542	Also better check and see if your state has a "fuel capacity feeding device limit" as well! We do our best to comply with the laws AND the regulations, but some days its hard..... As I understand it, (and I could be in error,) if you have a "Stock" (the artist formerly known as "Brace") that is not, and no longer can be attached to your pistol, its not a problem. This is what the ATF always did with "stocked pistols". You could have a Luger, or Mauser Broomhandle or a Hi power, AND its stock, PROVIDED either the gun or the stock was modified so they could not be attached together. You didn't need to destroy the stock, as long as it couldn't be attached to the pistol, the ATF no longer cared about it. That being said, do keep in mind that "past performance is no guarantee of future actions" and the ATF has a long history of "changing its mind" about these things. Take the brace off, do something to it so it cannot be reattached and then repurpose it for some other use, or toss it, in the scrap bin, if it isn't on the gun, and can't go on the gun there is nothing to make a case of "unregistered SBR" on. Just my opinion, and in no way valid legal advice. Maybe get a second "former brace", and mod them both to make a nice shelf with them.... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 9, 2023, 05:02 PM	#407
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,693	Gentlepersons, we are straying from a discussion of laws and regulations into conjecture and political conspiracy territory. Kindly remember why the former Legal and Political discussion area had to be closed down. Let's not have the same thing happen here. In other words ... just fly the mission. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

May 24, 2023, 01:18 PM	#419
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 29,542	1) It's internet news.... 2) It's from ABC.com....... 3) it contains numerous factual errors, and opinion presented as fact....and some statements I would consider actual lies.... It is a piece of crap, not worth paying any attention to...(my opinion) __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 10, 2023, 11:36 AM	#408
Rothdel Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2015 Posts: 190	So as Aguila suggested in an effort to get back on track can anyone provide a current update in terms of what one needs to do to stay legal based on where the situation is today? Also if you apply for the free tax stamp can you only use a pistol brace or can you convert to a more conventional stock?

April 16, 2023, 03:32 PM	#410
sfwusc Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2013 Posts: 231	I have some questions about the from 1 Does any picture of the RP work? Do I need to submit a picture of the braced pistol? Description and the reason : Is saying you are registering a brace pistol due to the ATF rule work? CLEO : Do you just list the sheriff or do you call them to see if they have a person in the department that handles these things? Electric Documents : If you are just a person and not a Trust, then you don't have any of these right? Side note : this is a pain.

April 17, 2023, 08:07 AM	#411
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,711	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms6M7gR6rj4 For those still interested, the first preliminary injunction request has recently failed. Something about not meeting the need for a preliminary injunction.

May 24, 2023, 10:18 AM	#418
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,711	https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/...ation-99547060 Am not a lawyer, and don't understand how this wouldn't affect more than those directly involved, but it is not going to stop me from detaching one brace before the deadline. And yes, have other firearm the brace can legally be attached to.

May 24, 2023, 01:49 PM	#420
zeke Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 1999 Location: NW Wi Posts: 1,711	ya don't believe anything but certain news? I'm shocked i tell ya, absolutely shocked. Did see a copy of the supposed ruling but it was pretty vague and non specific. https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...sive=1&title=1 https://www.thetrace.org/2023/05/ar-...-court-ruling/ https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fed...ation-deadline And am not vouching for the veracity, or news organizations

May 24, 2023, 02:00 PM	#421
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,850	"At least three million guns with stabilizing braces are in circulation in the U.S., according to the ATF. Other estimates place the number much higher." Interesting. I keep getting E-mail from GOA about Biden banning pistol braces starting June first but the number supposedly in country is 40,000,000. Then they ask you to sign their petition and send money. I've heard that Biden wants to ban handguns period! Problem is the E-mail hints that it's just pistol braces. be nice if they'd be more explicit in what they want done. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

May 24, 2023, 06:13 PM	#425
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,296	I made mine into a rifle, so that’s done. I wouldn’t have known about this except I stumbled onto the topic here __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

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