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August 20, 2009, 03:18 PM | #301 | |
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
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August 20, 2009, 03:43 PM | #302 | |
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WildalwaysthereAlaska ™ |
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August 20, 2009, 03:49 PM | #303 | |
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"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
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August 20, 2009, 06:05 PM | #304 |
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Just when you think they can't sink any lower . .
Moved per request of staff:
MSNBC edits Arizona OC video to conceal the ethnicity of the AR-toting African American, in order to contrive a racist spin. Most impressive is the straight face with which they narrate this lie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYKQJ4-N7LI |
August 20, 2009, 06:30 PM | #305 | |
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*wipes tears from eyes* Somebody PLEASE send it to O'reilly Ill be rolling on the floor *sniffsnagglesnork* WildothatsgreatthankyoufoprbrighteningupmydayAlaska ™ |
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August 20, 2009, 08:35 PM | #306 | ||
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Priceless. Quote:
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; August 20, 2009 at 08:45 PM. |
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August 20, 2009, 09:12 PM | #307 | |
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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August 20, 2009, 09:37 PM | #308 | ||||
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The best possible realistic outcome is for them to view these folks as harmless nuts--but that's not how most will see it. They'll see it as an attempt to intimidate or as really poor judgement. Quote:
It's true that some folks will be irate or upset no matter what we do and that's just the way it is. The point isn't that we should NEVER do things to make people irate or upset, the point is that when we DO take a stand we do it in a way that provides a positive return. Let's turn this around. Instead of looking for proof that people were alarmed how about we look for proof of a positive benefit? We have direct quotes from unhappy people, how about some direct quotes from people (outside the gun community) who have positive things to say about seeing an openly carried rifle at a high-profile event? It's not enough to prove that no one was alarmed--the point is not to simply NOT ALARM. We can do that by leaving the guns at home. There has to be a validated and verifiable benefit to make it worthwhile. Quote:
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August 20, 2009, 10:12 PM | #309 | |
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August 20, 2009, 10:18 PM | #310 |
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Would it be my choice for advancing 2A?
No, not really.
OTOH, it's hard to fault the gentleman in NH, given that his group actually did get effectively assaulted by a pair of goons (were they SEIU? I don't know, but they definitely had the look of union enforcers in the video). What bothered me in that video wasn't the guy with the gun, it was the police officer who blatantly disregarded half a dozen witnesses yelling that the two guys right next to him had just assaulted one of them. The cop wanting to see the video was fine by me, but he should have detained the two goons first, and then watched it with them if he wanted to. I cannot understand why he just let them walk off. For me, that was the strongest argument of all in support of 2A that day. |
August 20, 2009, 10:20 PM | #311 | |
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JohnKSa
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If we are dictating our personal open carry policy dictated by whether or not we are "appearing" to be in a "winning situation" PRwise have not we already conceded, to a degree, and are not we standing on a slippery slope? Are we advocating OC for "clean cut, professional, business suit wearing, politically correct, anchor types" (is not that ironic) while we ostracize those who weather a rather antagonistic interview session well but are wearing a t-shirt and happen to be blinking a bit? Does it really matter at this point what anyone does regarding the media, giving the current mainstream media's apparent agenda concerning the 2nd Amendment? And while I happen to agree with you concerning education, how can anyone compete with the fact that the average American spends more time in front of a screen each day than any other activity (most of that time the screen being a television), including sleeping and schooling or working, given the mainstream media's shading of firearms? And given that education can be effective, given enough time, are we willing to forego other "more direct" paths which may not take the decades or even generations to achieve what it may take "pc appearance based education" to make?
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August 20, 2009, 10:30 PM | #312 | |
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WildimsofattheyareapintinggoodyearacrossmybellyandhangingmeoverastadiumAlaska TM |
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August 20, 2009, 10:37 PM | #313 | |||
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Is anyone really claiming that this guy always carries his AR-15 over his shoulder when he goes out? NO. He chose the venue and took his AR in an attempt to educate the public about open carry. That is why I approached it from the standpoint that we need to carefully evaluate (hopefully in advance) the positive benefit from such activities. Quote:
The media isn't going to help us, that's a given. But it can certainly HURT us and does so at every opportunity. It will happily take the low-hanging fruit we provide it and publicly rub it on our face. Our job is to make that task more difficult. YES, we MUST take the media's response into account BECAUSE they have an agenda. The idea that we can proceed as if they don't exist is just plain crazy. Quote:
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August 20, 2009, 10:38 PM | #314 | |
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and I believe that if it emboldens more to join the protests, in whatever peaceful fashion they choose, including OC of a firearm, that is a positive. You may refer to me as "delusional" or idealistic if you wish however, the public opinion aspect is not entirely lost on me. I simply choose to join the actions to try and sway public opinion, may be right, may be wrong, but I will not sit on my hands and bemoan the success of others, particularly when we have not seen the totality of their impact just yet. They have started a "backlash" and whether that is good, or bad for the cause of 2A, or rights in general has yet to be determined, other than the speculations we both share on our respective views.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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August 20, 2009, 10:46 PM | #315 | |
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One is not limited to choosing between sitting on one's hands and carrying an AR-15 to a high profile event. There are other options; proven, effective options for educating people about firearms.
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August 20, 2009, 10:59 PM | #316 | |
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JohnKSa
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Again playing the Devil's advocate: If the media is not going to help us and only going to hurt us, how ever can you personally influence it? If they can take a black man carrying a rifle and turn that event into a "non black man" via editing and editorial, how in the world can you possibly believe that what you say, anywhere or anyhow will be heard as you intended it to be when filtered through the mainstream media? The mainstream media has no need of any "nuts" they can fabricate "truth". (See previous example.) "Massive disconnect"?
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August 20, 2009, 11:10 PM | #317 | |
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If the goal is providing pro-gun education to the public, trying to use the mainstream media is clearly not going to be a useful strategy. In fact, it's pretty obvious that it's almost invariably going to be harmful to the cause precisely because the media will do their best to spin it that way if it's not already to their advantage to report it. If it's not negative or if they can't spin it then it won't get reported on any sort of useful scale. Yes, it's a massive disconnect. I don't understand: 1. ...how we start with the premise that the mainstream media is actively anti-gun and then proceed to try to positively influence the general public via the mainstream media. 2. ...how we can be so out of touch with the general public as to think they are positively influenced by seeing people carrying "assault rifles" (that's what the GP sees, I'm not advocating that terminology) at high-profile events.
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August 20, 2009, 11:28 PM | #318 |
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JohnKSa, well put. That is situation with so many problems that people seem to think the solution is only one of 2 choices. Much too black and white in the real multi-colored world.
I like to use my wife as an example; until last year I would classify her as nearly anti-gun. I say nearly because she had no problem with others having guns and hunting and target practicing, etc. The problem she had was she was so petrified of firearms that she refused to even touch even my .22 Henry lever action rifle. She viewed all firearms as inherently dangerous. I finally got sick of it and with the help of her sister and brother in law we got her to enroll with us in a firearms safety course. This course prepares you for your CCL and was excellent and she had a chance to meet and interact with other gun owners and she found out they were not so scary. After three evenings of classes we went to a local gun club and we shot a variety of handguns. My wife shot nearly everything they had out for us to try, from .22lr to .45acp! She then realized that guns aren't so bad afterall. This winter she even purchased her very own .38spl Taurus snubby. My point is that some of the fine folks on this forum and others who are gun enthusiasts might not see the actions of these people carrying guns at a Presidential event all that shocking. They forget that there are those out there such as my wife who aren't so in love with guns and see these protesters as quite shocking. I am afraid that these people are viewed by many as dangerous loonies and what we need is not to shock but to educate and convince the non gun enthusiasts of the merits of gun ownership and the second amendment, and not be scaring them. |
August 20, 2009, 11:45 PM | #319 | |
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JohnKSa
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And in the same breathe "hanging out to dry" those who actually are open carrying. I believe that some are mixing their feelings about the 1st and 2nd Amendments. It is mainly "high profile" due to the 1st Amendment; the topic at hand at the time. Are we happy calling people "idiots" and "detriments" because they are not in accord with our PCness; even though they were clearly legally exercising their rights? Are we changing our behaviors and beliefs (possibly our integrity) to suit what "the general public" thinks? In 99 out of 100 American homes, people watch commercial television, do we shun that 1% that chooses not to do so? Or perhaps that 1% needs to "get with the program". Just because you have a majority does not make it right. Think about the 5th Amendment for a moment. What happens if you fail to invoke that right at a certain time, say under questioning? Slippery slope. Give an inch...
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August 20, 2009, 11:47 PM | #320 |
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I have to say the black guy with the AR-15 made me a life long friend.
Everyone thinks: "AR, black rifle!. Bad! Yes it is our government battle rifle..." The pictures of the black guy with the AR over his shoulders TOTALLY disarmed any fears or apprehensions created initially. "OH, it's ok. He's part of Obama's gang, possee', etc." "He's there to protect Obama. That's why he's got the AR." "He's retired military, protecting the president." The body language of the people around the guy with the AR over his shoulder is they are totally relaxed, having fun. I thank God for people with the wisdom and guts to do something like that, and, for giving that person faith to do it. I can't think of any other situation that would have possibly disarmed the issue, and really focused it on the issues, and made any physical threat absurd, even in concept. The guy is brilliant.! Rosa Parks has nothing on him... |
August 21, 2009, 01:27 AM | #321 | |||
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This has got nothing to do with "our PCness", it has to do with public perception. More specifically it has to do with people who are trying to positively affect public perception but are doing so in a manner which is far more likely to have exactly the opposite effect. Is that a detriment? How could it be anything else? Are they idiots? I haven't used that term--I would say misguided is more accurate. Quote:
You can't have it both ways. If you're trying to make statements to the general public and trying to educate them then YES, you have to care what the general public thinks. It's absolutely pointless to try to educate the general public about guns starting with the attitude that you don't care what the general public thinks about guns. In fact when it's stated plainly in that manner it's clearly nonsensical. The very reason we strive to change public opinion is the reason we must respect it when it goes against us. NOT because the majority is right but because in our society/political environment majorities ARE strong. That is precisely why we all want to educate the general public and also precisely why we need to be careful about the way we go about doing so.
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August 21, 2009, 01:39 AM | #322 | |
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JohnKSa
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How do you propose to begin to reach the "general public" being a small minority of the total populace with out making use of a media that 99% of American households watches an average of 5+hours daily per person? A news media that fabricates what is "truth"? Talking heads in a box that helps dictate what we wear, eat, drive, smell like, what ailments we might have and which drugs to take because of this, and where we might want to go on vacation. (There is a reason that television advertising can charge the rates that they do.) A box that tells us what our world is like. From the weather, and we chuckle that they can be so wrong so often but then fail to carry this thought much beyond the weather, to the news of political and financial situations. Suzie Soccermom can verify whether or not the weather is accurate, but really has no time to verity much of anything else; i.e. the countries current financial status, or exactly how many Senators did show up for that vote, and exactly what was in that bill and how did my representative vote? John Q really does not have the time, or generally the drive, to attempt to understand current pending legislation that may or may not influence his life right now or in the near future. Heck, tax forms once a year is bad enough! Good luck reaching 99% of the country (the general public) without using the one media that they make use of almost exclusively greater than any other activity.
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August 21, 2009, 01:52 AM | #323 | ||
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From THIS POST I responded to the author with the following:
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
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August 21, 2009, 02:02 AM | #324 | |
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AZAK,
Yeah, that's exactly what I mean by a massive disconnect. A hates my cause. A makes things up. A will not report things that benefit my cause. A will report things that harm my cause. A will spin things that benefit my cause to make them seem like they harm my cause. ***************** MASSIVE DISCONNECT ***************** A is how I will promote my cause. Quote:
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August 21, 2009, 02:04 AM | #325 | |
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And here is the canned auto-response:
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
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