Defense at the Gas Station (among other places)

[mvpel]

It is called the insurance industry, and everyone in the country who drives is required by law to be a part of that industry.

In New Hampshire, auto insurance isn't required by law - people are still allowed to self-insure - and as a result we have low insurance prices and a fairly low rate of uninsured motorists.

Meanwhile in Massachusetts, the insurance companies are fighting to be allowed to charge bad drivers more. I wonder if that's why the motorists down there are so angry all the time...

[springmom]

I'm still not sure I have this picture in my head correctly. Were you pumping gas and somebody hit your car? With their mirror? I'm trying to visualize that, and failing. We could probably be more useful if you could be more detailed and clear about exactly what happened.

That said, a couple of things come to mind:

1) If there is an auto accident of any description, the thing to do is exchange insurance information and if someone is really upset, suggest that you call the police. In this area (Texas) you are required to move any accident off the road if you can, but since your problem happened in a gas station, I'd move off to the area where people park when they are going in to buy a soda or whatever inside, and then exchange insurance info and just go from there.

2) As I noted a few days ago on another thread, the single most important self defense weapon you have is between your ears. Use your head. Try to avoid making things worse. You don't have to "bend over and take it" but you don't have to pour gasoline on the hot coals either.

3) If, God forbid, someone pulls a gun on you at a gas station, the rules of shooting come into play....remember that, to quote the commander of the Red October in the movie "most things in here don't react well to bullets". LIke gasoline. Another REALLY good reason not to let this get too hot, yes?

4) If someone is yowling about you having damaged his car, then launches into verbal abuse, go back and see #1 and explain...calmly...that you have insurance and you just both need to get each others' insurance info, blah blah blah. This is not worth going to the mattresses about.

5) This is a website about firearms and their use. I just went back and re-read your initial post again...If you want to learn self-defense strategies that do NOT involve a gun (and I hope to God you're not saying you would have used a gun in this situation?) then I'd suggest a martial arts course for you. My son has done kung fu and you don't have to be a super duper athlete to start (although if you keep it up you'll become one!)

6) Finally, the cheapest and yet most valuable words on the planet are "I'm sorry". OK, it wasn't your fault. Goodness, if you're married you've surely learned that you still sometimes apologize even when it ISN'T your fault. In this case, "Oh, man, I'm sorry! Let's exchange our insurance info. I'll call a police officer so he can do a report." Real calm. No crisis-mode.

Please accept MY apology if I have totally misunderstood what happened to you. Hope all this helps a bit.

Springmom

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Law Boy

we have a multi billion dollar industry in this country to deal with the situation where someone accidently bumps you or your car. It is called the insurance industry, and everyone in the country who drives is required by law to be a part of that industry. If you are insured, and an "accident" happens, there is no need to get upset at the person who hit you. Accidents happen. We all know that, that is why we have an insurance industry and laws mandating insurance. So, when you are in an accident, you don't have to teach anybody anything, or get mad, or reprimand the guy who hit you. You knew before you ever met this person, that someone could hit you on accident, or you them. All you have to do is exit your car if you are not injured, smile at the guy, inquire if he is hurt or needs help, then exchange insurance information, get a police report, and go on your merry way. File your claim, and work it out like civilized people in a civilized society that has had the foresight to develop an industry to resolve these issues long before you were ever born. The yelling, name calling, and "teaching a lesson to a moron," who may be smarter, better educated, higher paid and a superior citizen to you, is so god damn ignorant that it is hard to believe anyone carrying a gun every day would even have those kinds of thoughts. Jesus Christ. Grow up.

Law Boy,

What if the guy that hit your car blames you for the accident and then starts berating you when it was either their own carelessness, stupidity, or both that caused the accident. I'm not advocating violence, just stating the fact that there are a lot of stupid people out there.

As for insurance, where do you live? How much do you pay? What is your deductable? I live in South Florida and our insurance rates are among the highest in the nation (due to our incredible driving skill of our population ). I have full umbrella coverage ($10 million) to protect people from sueing my business. My deductable is $1000. If I make a claim my insurance will go up. Now do you think that it is fair for me to pay God knows how much more a year because some jack*ss can't drive worth a crap? I wil lbe civil but he or she had better take responsibility for their actions. I will call the police and get a report. I'm sorry if I'm not as nice or calm as you but I'm not going to be all nice if they start talking crap and it is their fault!

One other thing... If you know so much about the insurance industry, you will also know that they are not into the business of losing money. When people make claims, they jack up the rates. Plain and simple. I'm just wondering how badly I'm going to get shafted for my wind storm and flood insurance.

[spacemanspiff]

insurance rates don't automatically increase because you file a claim. many companies use what is called 'experience rating', which estimates the maximum amount of losses you might have had over the past few years based on your current premium. if you have no losses, or your losses are below the maximum, you get a credit. should they go over, they make a debit. there is some science to it, but so far we havent been able to figure it out. its not as simple as saying 'x divided by y = z, if a < z = -15%; if a = z = 1.00; if a > z = +15%.

[Trip20]

Spiff - I actually experience rate high risk commercial auto policies from time to time.

The credit/debit amount is based on the Expected Loss Ratio compared to the Actual Loss Ratio.

Your Expected Loss Ratio is a factor (i.e. .458), which is derived from the amount of premium paid during the experience period - when brought to basic limits. What this says is, a risk who has paid X in premium over the experience period, is expected to have Y amount in losses.

Your Actual Loss Ratio is the actual ratio between losses and premium for the risk. You paid X, and had Y in losses.

Other things which factor into this are things such as "credibility", which is a factor based on the amount of basic limits premium paid during the experience period, same as the Expected Loss Ratio (typical experience periods are about 3 years).

Unfortunately, I'm encountering an error when trying to upload the images, which show the experience mod formula for both debit/credit.

If your interested, I can send them to you via email.

[lawboy]

SELF INSURANCE IS INSURANCE. When you self insure you step into the shoes of an insurance company on your own behalf. You do this BEFORE any accident in one of several ways defending on state law. Most of the time it consists of posting a bond of at least a statutory minimum amount. So, when you get into an accident, you now have the funds to: buy an attorney, settle a case, pay damages if you are at fault, etc. It is insurance, just provided by yourself as the "dollar one" coverage entity.
So ... like I said, just get out, thank god we have a good system, exchange info., hope no one is hurt, and continue on your way. All this acrimony is for morons.
As for the high price of insurance, that has to do with UNINSURED MOTORISTS. From the story, our guy had no idea if this guy had insurance or not so his angst was premature.

[lawboy]

Another thing ... your $10 million in umbrella coverage is smart thinking and responsible. You have a lot to protect.
Now let me tell you the quickest way for you to lose that coverage.
The other driver is a moron as you say and he denies everything, curses you and gets in your face. You respond in kind. It escalates and he comes at you with a wrench or whatever. You shoot him.
Now the witnesses tell the responding officers that it was a mutual verbal free for all until that guy attacked you and you shot him. To the police, that is a mutual "fighting words" scenario where you were equally at fault for escalating the situation. Actually, you were more responsible because you knew you had a gun and that you could over power the other guy and may have baited him so you could shoot him.
So, the D.A. gets a copy of the incident report and filed a criminal complaint againt you. YOu may plea bargain it down to a misdemeanor, or a lesser felony, maybe not.
But here is the really fun part ... you have just lost ALL OF YOUR PRIMARY AND EXCESS COVERAGE. How, well, in every state in this nation, it is againt public policy to allow someone to insure against intentional misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance (the latter where a duty to act is owed). The criminal case establishes that your act was intentional. So, when you tender your defense to your primary ins. co., they will deny it citing an intentional act. Now, you have no excess coverage because it only kicks in once the dollar-one coverage has been exhausted.
Now you will sue them for bad faith -- that case will be up on appeal six years later. Meanwhile, the wrongful death or damages case from the guy you shot will be waiting in the wings, along with another nine cases for intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress from the other people who witnessed you shot this guy to the ground with their kids also watching from the backseats of their minivans. You will likely lose everything you have paying hourly for the case against your ins. co. so the others will just be gravy by the time you get around to them. Business, gone. Wife, gone. Life Over!

Mind you, I am not an ins. expert. I am a litigation attorney who defense police departments and sheriff's departments against excessive force and civil rights claims. Now, those officers have more immunities and defenses than you can dream of. Still, we settle plenty of cases where nothing wrong was done except some officer cursed at a citizen or was an ahole with witnesses around. That kind of thing can get you hammered even when there is not a shooting involved.

All that being said, it is your life so do as you will. After all, "you da man."

[Eghad]

I dont think I am going to exit the car if the other fellow is mad and yelling...lol. Now if he decides to break the window glass and join me we have a slight problem.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Law Boy

SELF INSURANCE IS INSURANCE. When you self insure you step into the shoes of an insurance company on your own behalf.

How many people can afford to self insure realistically? If you have some serious assets, scumbag accident attorneys will be knocking down the door of the guy you barely rear ended and coaching him how to milk you out of your money. The will tell them that it is just like winning lotto. Have you ever sat home during a weekday and watched how many stupid accident attorney commercials there are? I'm not saying all attorney are scumbags, but many accident attorneys fall in that catagory. (Please don't tell me that a multimillion dollar suit won't seem excessive if I was the one injured )

Originally Posted by Law Boy

So ... like I said, just get out, thank god we have a good system, exchange info., hope no one is hurt, and continue on your way. All this acrimony is for morons.

Wouldn't it be nice if all people owned up to their mistakes and acted in a rational manner? The original post mentioned that this guy hit his car and then proceeded to blame the other guy for the accident. Does this sound like a nice calm rational guy who you can simply exchange info with? What Utopia do you live in? Besides, are you implying that we are all morons? As for why insurance rates are high, who cares that it is because of uninsured drivers? They are high and insurance is mandatory in pretty much every state (At least PIP). As for our original poster's "angst", how would you feel if some guy hit your car and started getting stupid about it?

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Law Boy

Another thing ... your $10 million in umbrella coverage is smart thinking and responsible. You have a lot to protect.
Now let me tell you the quickest way for you to lose that coverage.
The other driver is a moron as you say and he denies everything, curses you and gets in your face. You respond in kind. It escalates and he comes at you with a wrench or whatever. You shoot him.
Now the witnesses tell the responding officers that it was a mutual verbal free for all until that guy attacked you and you shot him. To the police, that is a mutual "fighting words" scenario where you were equally at fault for escalating the situation. Actually, you were more responsible because you knew you had a gun and that you could over power the other guy and may have baited him so you could shoot him.
So, the D.A. gets a copy of the incident report and filed a criminal complaint againt you. YOu may plea bargain it down to a misdemeanor, or a lesser felony, maybe not.
But here is the really fun part ... you have just lost ALL OF YOUR PRIMARY AND EXCESS COVERAGE. How, well, in every state in this nation, it is againt public policy to allow someone to insure against intentional misfeasance, malfeasance or nonfeasance (the latter where a duty to act is owed). The criminal case establishes that your act was intentional. So, when you tender your defense to your primary ins. co., they will deny it citing an intentional act. Now, you have no excess coverage because it only kicks in once the dollar-one coverage has been exhausted.
Now you will sue them for bad faith -- that case will be up on appeal six years later. Meanwhile, the wrongful death or damages case from the guy you shot will be waiting in the wings, along with another nine cases for intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress from the other people who witnessed you shot this guy to the ground with their kids also watching from the backseats of their minivans. You will likely lose everything you have paying hourly for the case against your ins. co. so the others will just be gravy by the time you get around to them. Business, gone. Wife, gone. Life Over!

Wow! You predicted exactly what is going to happen simply based the fact that I am going to "confront" some guy about hitting my car. You even predicted what a witness would say and that the other guy would produce a weapon. Lets break this up in parts. I get out of the car and the guy gets in my face. I call the cops. He produces a deadly weapon, I shoot him. If he is the one who produced a weapon, I am entitled to defend myself. You are assuming I am going to raise bloody hell at a guy for hitting my car. If the guy gets stupid, I just callthe cops. If he attacks me, I sure as hell will defend myself. As for my umbrella coverage, I'm not sure it covers anything not directly related to the accident. As for all of the other crap you threw in there...

along with another nine cases for intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress from the other people who witnessed you shot this guy to the ground with their kids also watching from the backseats of their minivans.

, I'm ot sure where you get this stuff. I guess you have to defend the police department from all those types of suits as well everytime an officer shoots a bad guy.

I guess since you are an attorney (or at least claim to be) you have all the answers. That is why our legal system is so F$%&(* UP. Besides, with the pathetic juries I have served with, I find it hard to believe that anyone gets convicted of anything anymore. :barf:

If I were a judge, I'd tell you to stick with the facts and not your cockamamie theories. (Speculation) Last time I checked, that is NOT what our legal system was based on. Besides, the fact that you defend police departments means you are most probably NOT a criminal attorney (although the term is often considered redundant ).

I truley hope that you don't ever find yourself in a situation like the one posted. Many people are much less rational than you give them credit for. I would encourage you to respond with the appropriate force if the guy is an idiot and decides to attack you.

[lawboy]

Just a couple of comments in reply.
First, I agree 100% percent with how you felt in the situation. I would be angry and feel abused by that guy as well. You are entitled to that and should not feel wrong in your anger or frustration. Please, understand that I agree with you there.
BUT, and as I tell my 6-year-old daughter, we DO NOT act in conformity with your feelings all the time. Instead, we try to act in conformity with reason and logic, and with caution and in light of our better judgment. So, while your feelings might point you towards an angry response, your MIND should control your actions in the direction of calmness, reason, etc. All the more so when you strap on a gun.

Second, I am not telling you what will happen, truly, we all know I cannot foretell the future. What I was demonstrating is how a seemingly okay, response in kind could spiral out of control to your everlasting detriment. Your comments about speculation, etc. in a lawsuit are straight up wrong. You demonstrate an absolute void of understanding of the rules of evidence, which do not change much from civil to criminal court. I neglected to mention that civil rights defense is not all I do. I do ALOT of tort defense and some tort plaintiff's work as well.

Like I said before, do what you will, "you da man."

As far as your liability insurance, if it covers your business and your house, then your excess will cover all the things your primary covers, which includes tortious conduct of any kind just about. Insurance is that way not to protect you, but to protect your creditors, who don't want you to default on your house loan and your commercial loans or mortgage due to some unfortunate accident you may cause. That is why insurance of this type developed to cover the things it does cover ... jeez.

[gdeal]

I like what BlackWater Ops said. Get the blank out of there. That is best for everyone. Just think Ace is still here to write about all this. Not in jail, not in the ground nor the hospital. Every true warrior will try to avoid a stupid confrontation first. They don't need to come down to that bar room brawl level. But if it is unavoidable, Yes good consistent training will come into play.