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Old July 16, 2017, 02:25 PM   #1
MikeGoob
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Best tactics in a kidnapping?

I hope this topic isn't too grim.. This is about the mindset to have in advance, in case the situation ever arises.

They tell kidnap victims never to leave with someone at gunpoint (when attempted in public, on the streets at night etc), always to run away, because statistically if you leave with someone at gunpoint, you never come back. Whatever kidnapper wanted, he'll find someone else.

I believe people should train their family how to handle certain scenarios. In the event of a home invasion where burglars want to tie up the family---- Is it best to have at least one person run away? At the expense of the rest?

For example--not to surrender if burglars have a family member held at gunpoint, using this to capture the rest of the family? ie, 'Come on out of the bathroom we have a gun to moms head'... to climb out window and escape.

Reason being, that burglars would just leave quickly (thinking cops are coming) instead of killing everyone. Of course sometimes they massacre everyone anyway yet at least one escaping is the hand you're dealt?

Thoughts?
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Old July 16, 2017, 02:49 PM   #2
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Situational awareness says be alert and don't allow the situation to become a kidnap / hostage.
And keep your wits about you.
For instance a bad guy in bungled burglary will have different goals than a cartel or professional team.
Beyond that there are so many variables it's hard to be generic on a forum.
But there are some books on it.
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Old July 16, 2017, 03:08 PM   #3
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I've never had this conversation with my loved ones.. maybe I should.

We HAVE talked about public kidnappings when watching movies.
I tell them never get in the car willingly.. and If for some reason they have me at gun point.. well they can just go ahead and shoot my ass in public cause Im not getting in the vehicle.

As far as hostage situation.
I would not surrender no matter who they have hostage and If any of my loved ones asked me I'd tell them never to disarm under threat of my death.

I'd tell them they can walk out or be carried out but there is no way im gonna disarm and become another hostage.

Sure they could decide to kill my loved ones.. But if they do Im gonna do everything in my power to make sure the rest of their life is short, But it'll feel like an eternity.
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Old July 16, 2017, 03:16 PM   #4
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If you get taken prisoner in your own home, you're likely going to be at the complete mercy of the invaders for as long as they want. Having studied some of what goes on in successful home invasions, I'm inclined to think that getting killed trying to prevent one might be preferable to the alternative.

Nobody's going to hear what's going on inside the house unless there is a LOT of noise and even then it's likely no one will summon help. A couple was killed in their home near here a few years ago and the attacker fired a number of shots from a .223 rifle in the process of murdering them. One person who saw the crime scene said that "there were casings everywhere".

One neighbor reported they might have heard some shots around the time of the shooting and other neighbors mentioned hearing "thunder" but nobody called the police. The bodies weren't discovered until the next evening after friends became concerned when they couldn't reach them during the day.

In other words, if you're going to get help in a home invasion, it's probably going to have to come from you or from another victim. You can't count on your neighbors hearing something and reporting it.
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For example--not to surrender if burglars have a family member held at gunpoint, using this to capture the rest of the family?
I think that's mostly fiction. If a person facing death/torture/whatever gets a chance to run for it and they are inclined to flee vs. freeze then they're going to run for it regardless of what goes on behind them. Fleeing, if a reasonable opportunity presents itself, would be a good tactic, IMO. Once someone gets out of the house where they can be seen and heard, the scenario changes significantly and for the better.

If someone can ruin/break up a home invasion, it is probably a "win" even if victims are injured in the process. After all, as soon as the invasion ends, emergency medical help is immediately available. And as you point out, one person getting injured or killed is preferable to everyone getting injured or killed.

You'll have to weigh the scenario in real time to determine when/if to act. Cooperation may make sense at some points, if there are no other options and if failing to cooperate would not achieve useful goals, but it can be dangerous too. The BTK killer used a ruse to get his victims tied up--he would tell them that he was wanted in another state and only wanted money and a car. That often prompted them to cooperate so he could tie them up. In his initial killing, he gained cooperation of an entire family (even though there would have been no way for him to control everyone had they fought) and ended up killing everyone, one at a time, after they were tied up.
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I believe people should train their family how to handle certain scenarios.
Sure. Read about what typically happens in home invasions as well as the common motives for them (most are about someone searching for valuables that they believe to be present--often drugs or drug money), and try to come up with a workable plan. Generally any reasonable plan is better than no plan at all--even if it's not an ideal plan.

By the way, if home invasion is something you really worry about, or if it's a reasonable concern in your area, then carrying a gun at home would be a good foundation for the rest of your plan. If you can disrupt the initial takeover attempt significantly you can just about eliminate the chances of a successful takeover.
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Old July 16, 2017, 03:36 PM   #5
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One other major factor that can really take the kidnapping sideways is drugs.
A hopped up meth-head or heroin addict is totally unpredictable.
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Old July 16, 2017, 03:51 PM   #6
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I roll my eyes every time a thread like this comes along. How about this:

Don't be a victim. Be a hard target.

'Nuff said.
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Old July 16, 2017, 05:57 PM   #7
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Carrying at home, be aware of what is going on around you and your home, a safe room and an escape route to a meeting place. You can fortify that with extra cell phones, cameras that tie into a remote recorder, and monitors that let you see better.
There are a host of things you can do but always leave yourself alternatives so you aren't trapped in a "fortified" area that you can't get out of.
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Old July 16, 2017, 08:00 PM   #8
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Old July 16, 2017, 08:20 PM   #9
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I never understood why people that carry throughout the day don't carry at home? Personally, the only time my gun is not on my person is if I'm in bed, or the shower. Even then it's at arms reach.
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Old July 16, 2017, 11:01 PM   #10
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Always carry at least 100 guns and 50,000 rounds of ammo on your person at all times plus hire a thousand armed guards to protect you in case your guns fail and the ammo goes bad. And have 50 or 60 tanks in your back yard and at least 80 fighter jets flying a CAP over your house just in case the local kids try to get a wing of nuclear armed B-52's through to get you. Oh, and don't forget the ICBM's targeted on your neighbor's houses, just in case.

Of course, that is the absolute minimum - reasonable people will have some real protection.

Jim
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Old July 16, 2017, 11:38 PM   #11
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James don't forget the suicide vest linked to a heart monitor.. screw it!, Im a sore looser, if I don't win no one does!

@Omega I think most people do? I dunno maybe we should take a poll.
Personally Im armed when ever Im dressed home, or away.
If it ain't on me it's on me it's next to my bed.
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Old July 17, 2017, 02:44 AM   #12
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A person I once knew had the solution for almost any problem of intimate attack.

Gag yourself and vomit on them. he claimed that it would interupt the narrative, shock them, and set their plans all astray.
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Old July 17, 2017, 07:22 AM   #13
Lohman446
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Quote:
I'm inclined to think that getting killed trying to prevent one might be preferable to the alternative.
These are the decisions one should make ahead of time. Are you more willing to live with the potential consequences of cooperation with the aggressor or with the potential consequences of non-cooperation?
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:11 AM   #14
MikeGoob
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These are the decisions one should make ahead of time. Are you more willing to live with the potential consequences of cooperation with the aggressor or with the potential consequences of non-cooperation?
Really this is what I'm getting at. Many people do not own their home, and so can't invest in all sorts of security installations. This is just preparing a state of mind or a kind of 'evacuation plan'. Especially in families where there are children. Is it good training to simply tell adolescents, 'don't wait for mom and dad, just get out and go to a neighbors house' -- don't listen to someone with a gun, ever.

I sometimes think of the house in Washington DC where everyone was killed and the place was burned down because the bad guy wanted $40k. They even tortured his 10 year old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_W...,_mass_killing

I know not everything can be prevented, but I think the quicker you can form a plan the better the outcome could be.
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:28 AM   #15
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MikeGoob, your question is wide-ranging and covers not only kidnappings in the conventional sense, but also home invasions which are generally not what people think about when they think of a kidnapping.

Your reaction to a kidnapping is going to be entirely dependent on the motive of the kidnappers.
  • If you are being kidnapped for ransom, the kidnappers have a vested interest in keeping you alive at least until they contact your family and offer "proof of life", so initial compliance could afford you a better opportunity to escape later.
  • But if you're being kidnapped because the kidnappers are on a murder spree or the drug dealers have mistaken you for someone else, then you should by all means refuse to comply and run.
  • The number of kidnappers/home invaders and how well organized they are will also determine what your options are and what you should do/should have done.
So, as wide-ranging and open-ended as the question was, the only answer is, "It depends on the facts and circumstances."

If you would like to refine this scenario with location, motive, number of actors, how they are armed, how they conduct themselves, whether they appear to be rational, whether they appear to be intoxicated or on drugs, etc., I'll be happy to run hypotheticals with you all evening.
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
ShootistPRS wrote:
...a safe room ... with extra cell phones,...
A true "safe room" is going to have enough metal in the walls and ceiling (and possibly the floor) to, in effect, be a "Faraday Cage" and cell phone reception will be limited to non-existent.
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Old July 17, 2017, 11:00 AM   #17
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Once under the control of criminals inside your home, or at a secondary location, the odds of surviving are not good. Some of the most horrific crimes are committed when the victim(s) are at the mercy of violent offenders.

While James K uses hyperbole to perhaps make the case that we can't protect ourselves from every possibility, we can take some precautions. I carry a pistol in my pocket or on my belt around the house. Having a plan in place, considering the consequences, seems like a good idea to me.
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Old July 17, 2017, 11:36 AM   #18
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Just last week I was caught unprepared. It was about 8:30 at night, in the middle of a thunderstorm. I had the slide off my carry pistol for a two-minute cleanup and there was a knock on the door. We weren't expecting anyone, so it took me a minute to grab another pistol from a safe.

It wasn't kidnapper or a home invader. It was a UPS we knew, whose route had run late that day. I felt bad leaving him outside in a thunderstorm for longer than necessary, but I also kicked myself from a safety standpoint for not having a secondary pistol at hand while I had the first one out of action. Perfectly rotten timing and a lesson learned.

I don't remember the exact statistics regarding the drop in survival rate when someone is forced to change locations - even rooms - during a violent event, but it was big enough to make me take note that such demands by an assailant are a reason to look urgently for an opportunity to fight.
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Old July 17, 2017, 11:38 AM   #19
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@hdwhit

You're never gonna know the "kidnappers" motives.
And you forgot one scenario I can think of you missed.. a big one of if you're woman.. abduction for rape which often enough leads to murder.. or worse yet we do have human trafficking in this country.
Not sure which would be worse, death or being someones sex slave for 15 years or force prostitution.

The would-be abductor is not gonna tell you why they're kidnapping you and even if they did would you believe them?

Abductor: Oh no worries sir we're not gonna hurt you we just want you for ransom.
Victim: Oh, Jolly good old chap, Say could we stop off for some earl grey before we get to the hideout?

My opinion is anyone wanting me to go with them instead of demanding property.. it ain't about money.. it's YOU they want and I can't think of to many situations where that turns out to be a good thing.

I'd rather take my chances in public, whether Im armed or not, If you're gonna kill me just do it.. maybe I'll get away.. I have no chance if Im tied up some where secluded where they can take their time.

As for home invasions, I just assume the worse, Im using what ever force I can muster, I don't care if later on I found then they broke in to borrow a cup of sugar.
Not gonna waste my time trying figure out motive, most of which even If I knew wouldn't make a damn bit of difference to me..
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Old July 17, 2017, 11:43 AM   #20
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Quote:
My opinion is anyone wanting me to go with them instead of demanding property.. it ain't about money.. it's YOU they want and I can't think of to many situations where that turns out to be a good thing.
This is also something one has to consider. While I am sure there are individuals who are valuable for ransom I have to figure anyone that is targeting me or my family either has a personal grudge or has value me, or members of my family, for other purposes.

I, and those in my family, are not targets of kidnapping for ransom.
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Old July 17, 2017, 11:44 AM   #21
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Old July 17, 2017, 12:27 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
In other words, if you're going to get help in a home invasion, it's probably going to have to come from you or from another victim. You can't count on your neighbors hearing something and reporting it.
I can personally attest to the above. I live in a fairly rural area and it isn't uncommon to hear gunfire, sometimes even at night. Personally I have shot off a lot of rounds in my own backyard a number of times for target practice with no police or neighbors showing up. If gunfire outside didn't attract any attention, then you know what gunfire inside would do...
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Old July 17, 2017, 12:35 PM   #23
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I don't remember the exact statistics regarding the drop in survival rate when someone is forced to change locations - even rooms - during a violent event, but it was big enough to make me take note that such demands by an assailant are a reason to look urgently for an opportunity to fight.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who's heard of this. I couldn't google a reputable source but I believe there is one...
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Old July 17, 2017, 05:16 PM   #24
Mike38
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Personally, the only time my gun is not on my person is if I'm in bed, or the shower. Even then it's at arms reach.
Personally, I would seriously consider moving away from an environment like that. Even if you have a good job, there's no amount of money that would make me live in a place that I'm in constant fear for my life. Do I have a loaded gun near me while at home? Yes, within 20 feet or so, one downstairs and two upstairs. But carry continuously? Nope, not while I'm at home.

As for the OP, I have always understood, and have told my wife and two daughters, never get in a vehicle of a person that is trying to kidnap you. Even if they have a weapon, run. If they have ahold of you, fight then run. Chances are real good you're going to, at the least get raped, and maybe die anyhow, might as well take the chance and attempt escape.
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Old July 17, 2017, 05:32 PM   #25
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A home invasion with intent to kidnap, would be a fully different situation than an attempt outside the home, say a car jacking scenario. If someone entered my home, and I am aware all bets are off and I would act in a very proactive manner. Outside the home I feel it would be very complicated.
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