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June 13, 2018, 05:20 AM | #1 |
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Are combat shotguns legal for military use under the international law for conduct of war?
During my tenure with 'some army', I've been issued an M4 and a Glock 17.
In one training, I've been given a semi-auto shotgun to breech a door. When it was done, the instructor asked us "what is the most dangerous weapon on us right now?" We all thought it must be the automatic assault rifle, to which he said we were wrong. He then loaded some .22 calibre shot shells (I think you call them bird shot? Sorry, I am not a shotgun person at all) and quickly emptied 7 rounds into the room without aiming. The room was all covered with holes! Sure, that's not very good if you have innocent people inside but more often than not, we had to face full-on insurgents with no *real* civillians around, for which the shotgun seems like the best tool, part from calling in a guided missile through their window... In other regards, the shotgun is actually safer, due to less likely over-penetration. But we were never issued shotguns. I once asked and was quickly dimissed that it is indiscriminate fire and not allowed under "Geneva" But I cannot actually confirm this. Does anyone know any specific laws against militaries using shotguns on enemies (not just their doors)? |
June 13, 2018, 05:42 AM | #2 |
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Thanks for posting, I've always had this question as well.
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June 13, 2018, 07:18 AM | #3 |
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As to laws of war, that is usually driven by the Hague conventions. These are agreements which apply only to signatory nations conducting war against other signatory nations. However, in practice, many non-signatory nations have adopted them as guidelines towards general customs of war.
The 1899 convention states: “This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body.” The 1907 convention expands on this to prohibit: “To employ arms, projectiles, or material calculated to cause unnecessary suffering” To my knowledge, there has never been an international judicial finding that shotguns fit into either of those categories. The Germans did protest against the use of shotguns in WWI - arguing that they fell into the unnecessary suffering category since absent easy access to x-ray or antibiotics, and the general environment of the war, small shot wounds were difficult to treat, often became infected, and led to a slow, painful death. Even today, different nations have different interpretations of these rules. For example, the American interpretation is much broader than the British or Swiss version. .22 caliber shot shells would be considered #4 buckshot. It is about the lightest load you would use on a 100-200lb mammal and doesn’t meet the FBI’s criteria for penetration. I’m sure some of the others will be along to address some of the common misunderstandings about shotgun use. So, I’ll just stick to your legal question. |
June 13, 2018, 07:40 AM | #4 |
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There are similar myths against the .50BMG as an anti-personnel weapon, some believe it is anti-materiel only, and illegal for other purposes. "You have to shoot at the guy's backpack / belt buckle / eyeglasses / etc" for the shot to be legal.
There is a good article from the Marine Corps Association that says otherwise: .50BMG is OK for killing in war The problem with a .50 is weight and logistics. 30 rounds of 5.56 weight-wise is minuscule compared to the same of BMG. The rifle is longer and weighs up to 35 lbs. And the smoke cloud (from smokeLESS powder) and noise are pretty good pinpoints. But if the target is a mile+ away......
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June 13, 2018, 07:41 AM | #5 |
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The US Navy still continues to deploy shotguns for shipboard defense. It is a much more viable weapon than a rifle for inside the skin of a ship.
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June 13, 2018, 08:17 AM | #6 |
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As a Hospital Corpsman, I was offered either a pistol or a shotgun as a personal defense weapon. It was generally accepted that carrying a rifle, an offensive weapon, would void Geneva protections afforded medical personnel.
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June 13, 2018, 08:31 AM | #7 |
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A nice, scholarly, article on the use of shotguns and laws of war from a U.S.-centric point of view: http://www.lawofwar.org/Parks_Combat_Shotguns.htm
One thing you have to keep in mind is that when the Hague Conventions happened, it was A-OK to shred people to death with grapeshot. However, things like expanding bullets often left behind tiny fragments that were impossible to locate with the technology of the day and with no antibiotics, they were a source of infection as well. As for shotguns, if they were effective in combat, they’d be used that way - laws of war or no. The fact fhat they are almost universally not used except in specialty roles - even by countries who do not observe the laws of war - is a big clue to their utility as a general use firearm. |
June 13, 2018, 08:38 AM | #8 |
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A shotgun will not fill a room with a cloud of shot. At 10 yds,#4 or 00 buck pattern will fit on a man's chest easily.
The 22 shot cartridge is #12 shot,about like coarse ground pepper. Fired through the rifled barrel of a pistol,it will scatter quite a bit,but whoever gave you that demo was misleading you. Shotguns were issued and used in WW1,WW2,probably Korea,and Viet Nam before the contemporary wars.I recall pics of shotguns being used to smoke dope in VN. If you use a shotgun to breech a door I would suggest if there is an enemy with an AK-47 on the other side of the door what are you going to do?Put your shotgun down and whip out your M-9? Stay alive |
June 13, 2018, 08:40 AM | #9 | |
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June 13, 2018, 08:51 AM | #10 | |
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June 13, 2018, 09:08 AM | #11 |
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Maybe the shell wasn't what I thought it was and "room full of shot" was a bit exaggerated but at 15 meters, for 2 seconds, everything in the wrong direction of that gun would have been absolutely unhappy.
Sounds like even Miculek would be challenged to top that with an assault rifle. And yeah, I could tell the instructor was "no expert", so I didn't ask any further. |
June 13, 2018, 10:19 AM | #12 | |
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00 buck inside (not just door breaching outside) ...from experience. |
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June 13, 2018, 10:33 AM | #13 |
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At room ranges (3-4 yards) a shotgun's pattern is measured in inches
my images/tests/camera At 25 yards: 20" Mdl-12/cylinder At toom distances: Last edited by mehavey; June 13, 2018 at 11:38 AM. |
June 13, 2018, 12:24 PM | #14 |
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Military NCOs, officers and instructors perpetuate many of these myths. I remember receiving instruction at least three different times that 50cal was an anti material weapon. I also was told at the same time that if you shoot at the soldier’s gear you were covered. I looked into it myself and determined that this information was false.
The US never signed The Hague treaty and is not legally bound by it, but we still follow it for the most part. |
June 13, 2018, 02:29 PM | #15 |
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I always chuckle a bit at "rules of war",,,
I always chuckle a bit at "rules of war".
I mean, what if you do break a rule of war,,, Are the Combat Police going to come out and arrest you? Aarond .
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June 13, 2018, 06:24 PM | #16 | |
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If you're on the "right side",then little to nothing happens to you. You might be too young to recall the name Wm Calley and the village of My Lai. Pretty nasty business. A bit closer to home...a fellow Ohio resident - John Demjanjuk had his life destroyed because he was accused of war crimes - none of which charges ever really stuck. So - yes,,,,there can be real bad consequences for breaking the rules of war....or..maybe not... |
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June 13, 2018, 06:24 PM | #17 |
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A point here is that different countries interpret international treaties and covenants differently. Without knowing which army you are referring to we can't really help you so far as to the particulars.
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June 13, 2018, 08:35 PM | #18 | |
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June 14, 2018, 02:41 AM | #19 | |
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Calley got off with a virtual slap on the back of the hand. I'd say that supports my statement that: "If you're on the "right side",then little to nothing happens to you." Care to explain why you feel it's not a good example of that statement? |
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June 14, 2018, 04:50 AM | #20 |
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Churchill was a war criminal but, as he said himself: "history will be kind to me, for I intend to write it".
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June 14, 2018, 07:14 AM | #21 | |
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Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war. |
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June 14, 2018, 07:17 AM | #22 | |
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Kind of like comparing a race car to a bicycle. |
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June 14, 2018, 08:03 AM | #23 |
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Did you miss the question by Aarond asking about what happens when you break a rule of war?
I was answering him, not the OP - - but - - it does go to the OP's question in a round about way. If a weapon is disallowed, then a war crime has been committed. |
June 14, 2018, 06:27 PM | #24 | |
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Demjanjuk died in a nursing home in Germany awaiting appeal of his conviction.
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June 15, 2018, 02:15 AM | #25 | ||
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