Questions: How to shoot correctly

[Highesthand]

Hey guys,

Id like some tips to improve my group shooting. I shoot relatively well at 7 and 15 yards, but when I shoot at 25 yards, all of my short comings are visible and I was just looking for some clarification to help me improve.

1) How hard do I focus on the front sight? Do I focus on it So hard that I literally cannot see anything passed the front sight or do I focus on it enough to see it clearly but still make out a blur of the target?

2) Which muscles should I be tightening and relaxing? Should I tighten my support hand shoulder?

3) Why is limp wrist bad for accuracy? and what is the point of follow through?

4) General advice: In most of my sessions, I end up shooting to the right and a little bit low. It's not very visible at 7 yards, but at 25 it is very noticeable. I have attributed this to thumbing and I have been working to fix this to try to isolate my trigger finger more. Any other advice is appreciated.

Thank you everybody.

[CherokeeT]

1) How hard do I focus on the front sight? I keep the front sight in focus but see the target well enough to be able to repeat my aiming point.

2) Which muscles should I be tightening and relaxing? Should I tighten my support hand shoulder? Left hand should be major part of the two handed grip, 60-70% with right hand securing the grip, you do not want a death grip on the gun

3) Why is limp wrist bad for accuracy? and what is the point of follow through? limp wrist = poor control, poor grip, may create cycle problems. Follow through is very important...the shot should be a surprise, no movement until the gun recoils

4) General advice: In most of my sessions, I end up shooting to the right and a little bit low. It's not very visible at 7 yards, but at 25 it is very noticeable. I have attributed this to thumbing and I have been working to fix this to try to isolate my trigger finger more. Any other advice is appreciated. Definately isolate your trigger finger, you may be thumbing and anticipating recoil.

Just my initial thoughts. I'm no expert but I have been shooting handguns since 1957. Also, welcome to the forum.

[Highesthand]

Thanks, really appreciate your response. However, I need a little clarification:

2) Does this include my shoulder (Latissimus Dorsi) or is it fine to relax that as long as my support hand is doing the supporting?

3) I'm confused, I thought follow through meant not releasing the trigger until the gun is finished recoiling.

Cheers.

[Highesthand]

Also, with my dominant hand, should my elbows be facing down or out?

[darkgael]

A difficult question to answer....many books have been written that attempt to do so.
The simplest answer i have yet heard is "line up the sights with the target and then pull the trigger without moving the sights."
A bit oversimplified but not wrong.
The kind of stance you take, the grip you use, what muscles are involved, et cetera are all functions of what type of shooting you are doing.
In an action pistol event or in practice for self defense, the muscles used are very much more active than in something like Precision/Free Pistol shooting wherein the attempt is made to make the gun support more skeletal.
Good luck in your quest.

[RickB]

You don't want any of your muscles "tensed".
The "support" hand should be contributing almost as much to the overall grip as the strong hand; the two-handed grip is as much about holding the gun down - in recoil - as holding it "up" on target.
Hold the gun as you would a hammer or tennis racket; you don't want it to fly out of your hand, but a death grip leads to trembling.
Being able to see the sights clearly is very important. I have contact lenses for my dominant eye that allow me to focus perfectly on the front sight. As noted, you do need to be able to see the target well enough to consistently aim at the same spot for every shot, but both the target and the rear sight will be somewhat blurry even with a perfect sight picture.
Misses are rarely the result of poor sight alignment prior to the shot, but due to poor trigger control during the shot.
Don't "chase" the sights, trying to break the shot when the sights are perfectly aligned, accept that there is going to be some movement in the gun (wobble area), and concentrate on smoothly breaking the shot.
Slight misalignment of the sights on the target will still result in a good hit, but poor alignment of the sights themselves, or jerking the sights off-target due to poor trigger control, are real obstacles.

[T. O'Heir]

How's your upper body tone? You're trying to hold a couple pounds still on the end of your arm. Having good upper body tone will help do that. Think back and shoulders more than arms.
1) "focus on it enough to see it clearly but still make out a blur of the target." This one.
2) None. Tight muscles cause straining. Straining is bad. Muscles should be firm, but not tight.
3) Limp wristing has nothing to do with accuracy. More about pistol function. The slide literally moves back while you're holding the frame still. Frame moves, slide doesn't move correctly and the pistol jams.
Following through is not releasing the trigger until the pistol has finished cycling.
"...right and a little bit low..." As in 'D' and/or '11'?
http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/Pi...t_Analysis.pdf

[vyse.04]

There are plenty of good YouTube videos that will show you the basics, from holding the pistol to managing recoil. To me that is probably the best place to start, as there is a lot to consider when shooting a firearm. Grip is one part, but you have stance/posture, how you view the sights, etc. IMO videos make it easier to see.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...+shooting+tips

[Aguila Blanca]

I've combined several of your posts into a single quotation:

Originally Posted by Highesthand

1) How hard do I focus on the front sight? Do I focus on it So hard that I literally cannot see anything passed the front sight or do I focus on it enough to see it clearly but still make out a blur of the target?
If you can't see that target, how can you know if the sights are pointing at it? The target is what you're aiming at -- you have to see it.

2) Which muscles should I be tightening and relaxing? Should I tighten my support hand shoulder? Does this include my shoulder (Latissimus Dorsi) or is it fine to relax that as long as my support hand is doing the supporting?
Unless you are using the old-style "teacup and saucer" grip (with the support hand cupped beneath the strong hand), the term "support hand" is almost a misnomer. It's not so much supporting anything as it is steadying everything. What I was taught, and what I teach, is that the strong hand should be pushing forward (toward the target) mildly, and the weak or support hand is pulling back toward your body in resistance to the push. As RickB commented below your post, not so tight that your muscles are trembling, but enough to lock the pistol in place.

3) Why is limp wrist bad for accuracy? and what is the point of follow through? I'm confused, I thought follow through meant not releasing the trigger until the gun is finished recoiling.
Limp wrist doesn't control recoil the same for each shot. A few weeks ago, playing with a 1911 that wasn't mine, I shot several groups without locking the wrist and without using the push-pull hold I described just above. I got groups of around 3" at 25 feet. Then I shot some groups using the push-pull hold (which also locks the wrist), and the groups dropped to under an inch.

Follow through means maintaining your hold and your stance, and keeping your eye(s) on the target until the shot has been completed. Just like keeping your head down until after you've completed your swing for a golf shot.

4) General advice: In most of my sessions, I end up shooting to the right and a little bit low. It's not very visible at 7 yards, but at 25 it is very noticeable. I have attributed this to thumbing and I have been working to fix this to try to isolate my trigger finger more. Any other advice is appreciated.

Also, with my dominant hand, should my elbows be facing down or out?
The simple answer is: whichever works best for you. In general, I'd say down -- simply because recoil is up, and if your elbows are pointing out to the sides you have less resistance to vertical movement.

Originally Posted by RickB

You don't want any of your muscles "tensed".
The "support" hand should be contributing almost as much to the overall grip as the strong hand; the two-handed grip is as much about holding the gun down - in recoil - as holding it "up" on target.
Agreed

Hold the gun as you would a hammer or tennis racket; you don't want it to fly out of your hand, but a death grip leads to trembling.
Also agreed. When I was in college, one of my dorm mates was on the fencing team. In describing how to hold the foil (sword) properly, he said it's like holding a small bird in your hand. Grip it too loose and it flies away, hold it too tight and you crush it. You have to find the happy medium between those extremes that works best for you.

Massad Ayoob says your grip should be like a firm handshake.

[SEKLEM]

This thread is awesome, genuinely useful information. We need more like this.

Thanks to OP for asking these questions.

[darkgael]

If you can find a copy of it, read through Gil Hebard's A Pistol Shooters Treasury.

[Ignition Override]

Highesthand:

As a 60 yr-old 'untrained' handgun novice (just tips from buddies), my suggestion is to search for any old Marine tng. videos on Youtube. Maybe good Army videos are also there?
The only old Marine video I remember is for the AR-15, but that was a few years ago, before the handgun bug began to infect me.

One of my questions is how much of the trigger finger to extend past the trigger (?), in order to avoid lateral offset with the bullets.

Makarovs, Polish P-83s, CZ-82 and Sig 232.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Ignition Override

One of my questions is how much of the trigger finger to extend past the trigger (?), in order to avoid lateral offset with the bullets.

For semi-autos, the trigger contact should be the middle of the first pad of the trigger finger. Even then, it sometimes requires practice to be able to isolate pulling straight back with the trigger finger while NOT clenching (tightening) the other fingers on the hand. To train the muscles to do this, I often suggest using a Grip Master, which allows working each finger individually, while strengthening the overall grip:



http://www.prohands.net/products/gripmaster.php

I usually read that for revolvers the trigger finger should make contact at the first joint. That seems to be (IMHO) for doble action; shooting single action revolvers, I find that the same middle of the first pad that I use for semi-autos also works well for (SA) revolvers.

[ncrypt]

1) How hard do I focus on the front sight? Do I focus on it So hard that I literally cannot see anything passed the front sight or do I focus on it enough to see it clearly but still make out a blur of the target?

Enough to make out the target. The front sight should be clear and the target blurry, but you can still locate the center of the target. You can't focus on both. You will be able to achieve sight alignment and cover the front sight on the center of the target. The farther back you go, the more you have to rely on center mass of the target. I would encourage you to set up a target in your house, clear your weapon (safety first) and practice focusing on the front sight and focus on the target (back and forth) to teach yourself what the target should look like when doing this properly (blurry target). Once you get yourself familiar with this and you practice it, you'll begin to see how easy it is to have tighter more consistent groups.

2) Which muscles should I be tightening and relaxing? Should I tighten my support hand shoulder? Also, with my dominant hand, should my elbows be facing down or out? Make your entire upper body rigid. There is no support hand, Both of your shoulders, arms and hands should be supporting the weapon evenly. Make sure you extend your elbows to full extension straight out. Push the gun out! Hyperextend, then release to comfort. Push the gun out! No chicken wings. Elbows bent creates a path of least resistance and you'll lose recoil control.

3) Why is limp wrist bad for accuracy? and what is the point of follow through? Follow through is critical for consistency and when making additional shots.

4) General advice: In most of my sessions, I end up shooting to the right and a little bit low. It's not very visible at 7 yards, but at 25 it is very noticeable. I have attributed this to thumbing and I have been working to fix this to try to isolate my trigger finger more. Any other advice is appreciated. Sounds like you're breaking your wrist down or relaxing too soon. Probably anticipating recoil. Also, You may be squeezing your hands when you squeeze the trigger too. Get a solid 50/50 grip and slowly squeeze the trigger.

[g.willikers]

Plenty of good advice here.
But it's mighty hard to help someone shoot better from long distance.
If there's a local person, with knowledge of course, who could actually watch and correct things it would be much easier to improve.

[Nathan]

1) How hard do I focus on the front sight? Do I focus on it So hard that I literally cannot see anything passed the front sight or do I focus on it enough to see it clearly but still make out a blur of the target?

2) Which muscles should I be tightening and relaxing? Should I tighten my support hand shoulder?

3) Why is limp wrist bad for accuracy? and what is the point of follow through?

4) General advice: In most of my sessions, I end up shooting to the right and a little bit low. It's not very visible at 7 yards, but at 25 it is very noticeable. I have attributed this to thumbing and I have been working to fix this to try to isolate my trigger finger more. Any other advice is appreciated.

1) Look at the target. As you move the sight onto the target, pick up the front sight. Shift back and forth with your final focus on the front sight as you break the shot. At first, you will have to focus on bringing the rear sight along, but as you grow, your grip and method will get the rear sight in line without checking.

2) Form a triangle of strength based at the shoulder. The whole triangle should have some flex to it. It should not be easily moved.

3) Limp writing is a sign of pulling the trigger wrong. Your trigger finger movements need isolated from your grip. That is how it hurts accuracy.

4) More of the same......

What to do: First watch and I grain the techniques of Jerry Miculek, Rob Leatham and others on YouTube. Build what you see into dry fire practice. After you achieve success in dry fire, build on it slowly with live fire. Build on smooth and fast will come.

[druryj]

Obtain a "perfect" sight picture. Squeeze trigger straight to the rear without disturbing that sight picture. Observe impact of bullet. If satisfactory, repeat until finished.

[rtpzwms]

Books are a great source of information. But a shooting coach at the range is worth gold. A good coach should be able to see what you're doing wrong and give positive suggestions of how to change your style to be more in tune with your abilities. Finger location on the trigger will be determined by your size and the gun fit. Middle of the trigger finger is a good general rule of thumb but may not work if you can't get your fingers around the pistol. If you have large hands that are strong but you can't seem to work the index finger as a separate digit then the placement will change to accommodate this issue. The single most important thing is to grip the handgun the same way each and every time up pick it up. Easy to say and much harder to do.

[Lexspeed]

Some wonderful advice on this thread. Thank you!

[Frank Ettin]

1. The first principle of accurate shooting is trigger control: a smooth press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight (or the reticle if using a scope) as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."
   
   
2. By keeping focus on the front sight and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger.
   
   
3. Of course the gun will wobble a bit on the target. It is just not possible to hold the gun absolutely steady. Because you are alive, there will always be a slight movement caused by all the tiny movement associated with being alive: your heart beating; tiny muscular movements necessary to maintain your balance, etc. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target. And of course, properly using some form of rest will also help minimize wobble.
   
   
4. In our teaching we avoid using the words "squeeze" or "pull" to describe the actuation of the trigger. We prefer to refer to "pressing" the trigger. The word "press" seems to better describe the process of smoothly pressing the trigger straight back, with only the trigger finger moving, to a surprise break.
   
   
5. You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.
   
   
   1. Remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.
      
      
   2. Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something poorly, you will become an expert at doing it poorly.
   
   
6. Many people are uncomfortable with the idea of the gun firing "by surprise." They feel that when using the gun for practical applications, e. g., hunting or self defense, they need to be able to make the gun fire right now. But if you try to make the gun fire right now, you will almost certainly jerk the trigger thus jerking the gun off target and missing your shot. That's where the "compressed surprise break" comes in.
   
   
   1. As you practice (perfectly) and develop the facility to reflexively (without conscious thought) apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between beginning to press and the shot breaking gets progressively shorter until it become indistinguishable from being instantaneous. In other words, that period of uncertainty during which the shot might break, but you don't know exactly when, becomes vanishingly short. And that is the compressed surprise break.
      
      
   2. Here's an interesting video in which Jeff Cooper explains the compressed surprise break. While he is demonstrating with a handgun, the same principles apply with a rifle.
   
   
7. It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.
   
   
   1. In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:
      
      
      1. unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;
         
         
      2. conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;
         
         
      3. conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and
         
         
      4. unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.
      
      
   2. To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.
      
      
   3. I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.
      
      
   4. To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.
      
      
   5. If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

Of course the gun will wobble a bit on the target. It is just not possible to hold the gun absolutely steady. Because you are alive, there will always be a slight movement caused by all the tiny movement associated with being alive: your heart beating; tiny muscular movements necessary to maintain your balance, etc. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target. And of course, properly using some form of rest will also help minimize wobble.

"Aim small, miss small."

Muscles are funny animals. If your muscles are too lax, your aim will wander in wide sweeps. If your muscles are too tight, your hands and maybe your arms will tire and begin to tremble very quickly. One of the reasons for taking a deep breath and then letting it partially out before finalizing your aim and pressing the trigger is that you want to oxygenate those muscles, so the trembling won't start before the shot goes off. If you find that "surprise break" to be elusive and it doesn't happen before your muscles start acting up, don't be shy about relaxing, taking your eyes off the sights, and taking a couple of breaths before trying again.

As Frank correctly noted, with practice the entire "surprise break" process will be compressed into a very short time. When you're just starting, it may seem to take forever -- especially if the gun has a heavy or long trigger. Don't make it into an exercise on how long you can hold your breath -- that's counter-productive.

[Radny97]

Great advice here. If you are to the point that you are trying to tighten groups out at 25 yards, you need to get a gun that is capable of one inch groups at 25 yards. Almost no stock semi for $500 or less is capable of that. You will need to be quite selective. Most revolvers over $500 will do that, but you'll need to master the long double action pull.

[RickB]

Obtain a "perfect" sight picture. Squeeze trigger straight to the rear without disturbing that sight picture. Observe impact of bullet. If satisfactory, repeat until finished.

Actually, if you are doing everything correctly you will know, without looking at the target, if your shot was a good one.
"Calling your shot", based on what you see of the sights when the shot breaks, is what you want to achieve.
Especially if you are shooting on the clock, it wastes time to look at the target for feedback.

[raimius]

I highly recommend Andy Stanford's Surgical Speed Shooting. It breaks down many of the details of good stance and shooting techniques in a scientific and easy to understand manner.
...Listen more to the people who study something scientifically than those who "just make it work."

There are various methods to achieve satisfactory levels of accuracy and speed. The "Push-pull" method mentioned above is very popular with the Weaver stance, but much less so with those who use Modified Isosceles.

...As always, it is also wise to find a good instructor. Sometimes our mistakes are not what we think they are. Someone able to watch us can spot them.

[boatdoc173]

although I can repeat verbatim what the author says--I will refer you to

The perfect pistol shot( blog site and book by albert league(available on amazon)

this book and hi s blog made me a much better shooter. he carefully explains why front sight focus, the proper stance and grip matter and what to expect when you use them and how to achieve them

enjoy the book and then enjoy your shooting even more

happy holidays