October 15, 2015, 10:49 AM | #1 | |
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FBI to 9mm
After the 1986 Miami shoot out the FBI overcompensated with the 10mm. Then they reduced the load until S+W came out with the 40 S+W. During the shoot out the agents used a 9mm and a snub 38 special.
The 9mm rounds fired by the FBI failed to penetrate enough to take out the heart of one of the criminals. This was a side shot through the arm. That criminal bled out into his lungs, but continued to fight with his Mini-14. The other was hit in the head and neck by a 38 special. The FBI blamed equipment, in particular the 9mm and the 38 special. I always believed that was mostly incorrect and tactics were the real reason. The FBI tried to compensate with more power in the handgun, yet sacrificed tactically by using a round that was harder to control. The testing, 12-18 inches in ballistic gel through 2 layers of heavy denim is correct in my opinion. What they are saying here is that current 9mm LE loads meet that requirement. We have to admit that bullets have come a long way in the last 20 odd years since that benchmark shoot out. Quote:
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October 15, 2015, 10:58 AM | #2 | |
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Inadequate backup and contingency planning, poor personnel decision (eyeglasses falling off), rumors of reduced recoil .38 Special rounds being used, rumors magazines not being loaded to the maximum capacity, etc. The cheap 115 grain Winchester White Box JHP is exactly the same as the Winchester Super-X Silvertip. This round isn't considered good, but is vastly better than the Silvertip of yore. Ranger, HST, etc. are miles ahead of modern Silvertips and decades ahead of the Silvertips of the 80s. |
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October 15, 2015, 11:41 AM | #3 |
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"...rather than the officers and their training..." Or lack of skill.
Find it odd that a lot of people think the FBI is the be all and end all arbiter of things that go bang. Everything a government agency does is based on their budget and little else. "...the Silvertips of the 80s..." Were semi-jacketed SP's. Advocated for small calibres like .25, .32 and .380 back then. Silvertips are still sold, but are not the same thing.
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October 15, 2015, 11:44 AM | #4 | |
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October 15, 2015, 11:57 AM | #5 |
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"A poor craftsman blames his tools."
Author unknown, but accurate.
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October 15, 2015, 12:24 PM | #6 |
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Folks, this is old news, discussed here about a year ago.
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October 15, 2015, 02:46 PM | #7 |
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I spoke to a friend this morning after he made statements about trusting the 'experts' , the FBI.
I explained too examples to contradict him. This all in Congressional hearings . A period where the FBI hade very poorly run laboratories .And some years later where the FBI falsified data !! Sadly we can no longer trust anything the Gov't says !
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October 15, 2015, 04:50 PM | #8 |
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from personal experience, i can shoot a 9mm faster and more accurately than 40 or 45. it carries more rounds in a magazine, and the ammo i carry has passed the FBI tests, as verified by the manufacturer of the ammo (info on their website). so it's good to see the expensive FBI come to the same conclusions i came to, and i did it for far cheaper.
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October 15, 2015, 05:20 PM | #9 |
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Honestly, I couldn't care less what the FBI chooses for their handgun round. They bounce around, spend a ton of money testing and then still change their minds every several years.
If you can hit what you are shooting at and cause adequate damage to the shooter to end the fight, that is the right round for you. |
October 15, 2015, 05:42 PM | #10 | ||
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Ultimately there is no correct answer "run what you brung and hope you brung enough"
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October 15, 2015, 07:56 PM | #11 |
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The FBI is not what alot think they are.I had work with some years ago and they do not really have a clue of to keep others inform of what is going on.also they all act and dress about the same.To them if it dose not work for there thinking then it is no good. Same gose with the 9mm rounds.All they know how to really do is use up money to take care of a problem that they do not want to see what is there problem in the first place.Yes they are not training the way they should for the job they are to do.In usen a handgun.
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October 19, 2015, 09:05 AM | #12 |
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When it comes to real world firefights, I would think there are a lot more state, county, and city agencies with much more experience, with criminals that probably more closely ressemble the perps in the street that the average person is probably more likely to run into.
No, I don't have any statistics, but when you think of the number of FBI shootouts what are federal crimes, compared to what some city police deal with, and what are state crimes, I would think the differnce in the numbers would be pretty significant. |
October 19, 2015, 09:44 AM | #13 |
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While we are talking about the 9 mm, I have to agree that the skill and training of the person doing the shooting is much more important than the caliber of the firearm. Is bigger better?? Not when it comes to placing hits on target. If your shot is a miss, it maters not what caliber you are using. If the best you can do is shoot someone in the leg then the results maybe less than stellar.
The more accurate you can be with a firearm, the better the probability of survival. It has been proven time and again that the rifle is more effective at stopping an attacker than a hand gun. But, that presents other problems as to concealment and ease of carrying something around for personal protection. While there are many that are proficient with the 45 Auto and 40 S&W, the 9 mm gives MOST the ability to reliably put hits on target, more so than almost any other caliber (the 22 LR the exception.) It is not by accident that the Glock 17 and it's variants are the most popular in the handgun world. Is it the end all of stopping power, NO. Is it a good compromise in ammo capacity, ease of use and accuracy for the majority of the population on this planet, I think so, it has been around for about 100 years. Is today's ammo of much better quality than that of the past, YES. If stopping power was the solution, we would all be carrying a 10 mm, 50 AE, 44 mag or S&W 454. If you fear that a 300 to 500 lbs bear is going to attack you, that might be your choice. But as to me, I see no problem carrying 14 to 19 rounds of 9 mm and practicing as often as I can to keep my skills up. Stay safe. Jim
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October 21, 2015, 08:53 AM | #14 | |
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I never understood why the FBI or anyone in law enforcement aren't given a choice of handguns/calibers of: 9mm, .40 45acp and 10mm. The one-size-fits-all is a stupid premise. And, if Walmart and every gun-store in the US can figure out how to stock ammo in more than just one caliber, I'm sure someone at the FBI with an IQ over 100 can figure this out too.
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Last edited by Skans; October 21, 2015 at 09:37 AM. |
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October 21, 2015, 09:38 AM | #15 |
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SKANS raises a valid point. I'd wager that the FBI is involved in more shoot-outs than an ammo case in WalMart, but still, inventorying 2 or three calibers of ammo would seem to be within the capabilities of the FBI.
I've also wondered how long the shootout might have lasted if the FBI had been given access to rifled slugs for their shotguns, or been issued a .30-30 lever action carbine. I'd expect either to penetrate deep enough to take out a creep, even one protected by car doors or body armour.
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October 21, 2015, 10:59 AM | #16 |
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The FBI currently issues .45acp, .40 S&W and 9mm handgun cartridges. They also issue the 10mm, 5.56, .308 and 12 gauge for use in long guns.
I imagine the FBI will continue to issue a variety of handgun cartridges for some time. But since most of their agents would be better served with the 9mm, I would expect they might start phasing out other cartridges or just issuing them to special units. |
October 21, 2015, 07:01 PM | #17 | ||
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Posted by TimSr:
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Do you believe that some criminals somehow "more closely resemble the perps in the street that the average person is probably more likely to run into" than do others? Quote:
Tom Givens points out in "Lessons from the Streets that there are some significant differences between police experiences and civilian experiences. Civilians are not called to break up fight in bars, to intervene in domestic violence cases, or to make traffic stops. From that standpoint, FBI use of force engagements more closely resemble those of civilians than those of uniformed officers. |
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October 21, 2015, 08:30 PM | #18 |
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National park rangers probably get into the most firefights that resemble the ones civilians CCWers are likely to get into.
Help is minutes or more away. Probably no armor. No vehicle with a rifle close by. Any number of assailants with any number of weapons. Anything from drug smuggler to poachers. I've read it is actually the most dangerous federal law enforcement job. Once while backpacking I walked up on a back country ranger who was taking a swim. His handgun left on a rock at the edge of the water with his radio. Twenty foot swim for him and ten foot walk for me when I noticed it. Miles and miles from another ranger and probably from anyone else at all. I m sure that was what he was thinking when he decided to swim. As a back country ranger it probably doubled as a bath. He was understandably uneasy. |
October 21, 2015, 08:38 PM | #19 |
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Or perhaps incidents in which the FBI is involved represent a statistical "middle ground" between what a civilian might experience and what municipal or state police officers might experience. I don't envision FBI agents intervening in domestic violence incidents very often at all, whereas Munis and Staties probably see a good many of them. Civilians might not EVER be involved in a domestic incident, unless perhaps they are related to one of the participants. On the other hand, I could envision Muni, State and Federal officers in pursuit of fleeing bank robbers, while a civilian, if aware of it at all, would likely (and wisely) side-step any such festivities.
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October 22, 2015, 05:41 AM | #20 |
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All I know is, that the Federal HST round in 9mm is as close to perfection, that has ever been made available to the general public.
Yes I own a 45 and I still love my 45, and yes you can get the Federal HST in other calibers, but the improvement in performance in the 9mm HST has been the most dramatic. In past decades, there was an advantage (IMHO) to carrying a 40 or 45 over the 9mm. But I don't believe that to be true anymore. And my view has nothing to do with what the FBI or any federal agency does. Right now it seems we are living in sort of a "golden age" of ammo development for civilian use. I'm glad to still be around to see it. |
October 22, 2015, 08:10 AM | #21 | ||
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I've said it before they're all a compromise and "best compromise" is an oxymoron
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October 22, 2015, 08:35 AM | #22 | |||
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Seriously, you think that the people the FBI encounter in the course of their duties more closely ressemble the bad actors we might encounter in our life than our local police and sheriff? |
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October 22, 2015, 08:39 AM | #23 | |||
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Posted by maracer:
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Rob Pincus on the subject: Quote:
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October 22, 2015, 09:03 AM | #24 | ||||||
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Posted by TimSr:
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As a I recall, Tom Givens provides some useful discussion of that point, and an example or two. Quote:
But if there is any, I fail to see how it might have anything to do with the weapons performance parameters tested and recommended for law enforcement by the FBI. And perhaps you missed that last point: the recommendation from the FBI training division at Quantico was intended for law enforcement agencies and law enforcement officers. |
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October 22, 2015, 10:06 AM | #25 |
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I keep hearing that ammo technology has improved so much that 9 mm ammo is as good as 40 Cal and 45 ammo.
That begs the question, didn't 45 ammo and 40 cal also improve? And isn't all handgun ammo underpowered? So if we have a technological improvement shouldn't we go to 45 ACP or 10 mm and not back to 9 mm? |
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