Women's shooting course in North or Central Texas

[Ghost22]

Does anyone of a good women's shooting course in the DFW to Waco, TX area that's they can recommend? My mom's getting her CHL, and both dad and I think it's a good idea for her to get training from a 3rd party. We also think it's a good idea to train with someone who has experience with purse carry (her most likely mode) since neither of us carry off body. Looking around on the internet, it looks like there's a good class near San Antonio, but since my folks live near Waco and I live in Fort Worth, that would make for a overnight stay and added cost. Doesn't anyone offer this training near where one of us live?

Thanks in advance.

[sliponby]

My advice is to not only consider women only classes. I'm an NRA pistol instructor and most of my classes are 50-60% female. I have done one female only class (just not enough demand) but I find the ladies do just fine when training with the men.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, it isn't specifically a woman's course; but it is a quality instructor near you and you can find the entire "Conceal & Carry Survive" TV series online to see what to expect:
http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/...rrySchool.html

[pax]

That's Karl Rehn's stomping ground: KR Training

Consider this a strong and enthusiastic recommendation for Karl and his school. He knows what he's talking about, and he's one of the best trainers in the country. With his school in striking distance, I wouldn't go anywhere else.

Need to add another little bit of info here: it is not necessary for women to look for female instructors. Yes, a female instructor is nice (I'm one and proud of it), but it's far more important to find a good instructor who is familiar with women's issues. Excellent trainers come in both genders.

Kathy

[Jim243]

who is familiar with women's issues

Is this a clothing issue? Otherwise weapon handling and shooting should be the same as any male training class.


Jim

There are some very nice purses out there with compartments for a concealed handgun carry.

[mete]

No ! Get a copy of Vicky Farnam's "Teaching women to shoot " .That will tell you the differences in teaching women .Yes men and women are different !

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. Pax and I both know Karl Rehn well - I second the highly recommended recommendation without reservation. Penny Riggs would be a great resource for specifics for women.

2. There are specific women's issues. Vicki Farnam gives a great exposition on the issues and the problems with some 'male' advice.

[manta49]

I can understand women wanting women only corses. But when it comes to firearms training what would women be trained to do diferintly than men. ?

[pax]

There are in fact some significant differences between training optimized for men (which is the majority of training available today) and training optimized for women (which is hard to find, and often what you do find isn't well done and contains a bunch of silly stupid stuff that shouldn't be in there).

Note here that I am talking specifically about defensive firearms training -- not about shooting skills in general. As John Farnam points out, a good defensive training school teaches a lot more than just how to pull a trigger. "The best schools are well-rounded," he says. "Our Art embraces an extensive repertoire of psycho-motor skills, verbal skills, and disengagement skills, along with a sound philosophical overlay, all of which must to carefully integrated. Some of the material is dry, but it is still important and must be included."

So:

1) Holster selection.

2) Clothing / concealment issues. (Significant!)

3) Handgun / hand fit. Women tend to (not always, not all, speaking generally of working with groups of women) have smaller hands than men, sometimes significantly so. This being the case, women often show up to class with guns that are ... suboptimal as shooting platforms. Good trainer knows how to work with these tiny guns, and knows how to help students -- whatever their hand size, including small -- find guns more suitable for them to use.

4) Firearm manipulations. Women tend to (not always, not all, speaking generally of working with groups of women) have less upper body strength than men, sometimes significantly so. There are some skillsets -- such as racking the slide -- where the majority of guys and experienced shooters use techniques that are strength-intensive. Women who have limited hand strength or lower upper body strength should have access to a trainer who knows how to teach the less strength-intensive techniques that will work for them.

5) Sociological issues: women are enculturated to respond to (threatened, potential) violence in very different ways than men are. This tends to have some huge implications for what we need to teach students about responding to violence, as each gender's preferred style has both benefits and drawbacks in actual use.

6) Types of violence. Men tend to be the victims (and the participants) in some types of social violence that women generally aren't. Women tend to be the victims of some types of asocial violence that men generally aren't. This has some important implications for mindset and awareness, as well as for avoidance and de-escalation strategies.

7) Optimized skills development. Groups of men tend to respond very differently to certain types of competitive pressure than groups of women do. Smart instructors know how to leverage this different energy to get the best performance from every student. (Important because in a group that contains 9 men and 1 woman, the pressure-push will often be optimized solely for the male students; which works well for women who enjoy being "one of the guys" and treated like one, but tends to work less well for women closer to the center of the bell curve.)

So yeah, there are differences, and there is a value in women's programs. It's just not the be-all, end-all of developing a good set of skills. Far more important to get your training from a solid source who knows how to flex with each group and personalize the training to meet the specific needs of the individual students he or she is working with at the time.

pax,
Kathy

[Ghost22]

I appreciate all the good info. I had completely forgot about TacPro; I've been out there several time and was always impressed with the operation. It looks like offer a Ladies Class that would work well. I'll also look into KR Training and see if she's interested in travelling to Austin.

The reason I am going to a Ladies specific class is I attended a general defensive firearms class at a local range, and while I found it interesting, it would be a complete waste of time for her. Maybe the instructor would adjust if a women attended, but it would probably be better if the course was already setup for her.

As far as dad or me helping her, we'd love to (and likely will later on), but telling your Mom she's doing it wrong can be a delicate matter and screwing up the introduction can really hurt enthusiasm later on.

[sliponby]

Ghost22, you've touched on the "Catch22" of trying to teach those close to you about firearms training. You are wise to seek professional training for your mother. If it was my mom, I'd also gently direct her to Pax's website, corneredcat.com. Good luck!

[Jim243]

Thanks PAX,

I was aware of points 1 and 2.

And my feeling is that points 3 and 4 are best addressed before any training and should be addressed by the people guiding the female shooter in the choice of a firearm so that she would be comfortable with the choice and use of the firearm. Extremely important for someone so they have the confidence in relying on their weapon. (not just a female thing.)

As to points 5, 6 and 7, they are more social issues for our society and need to be addressed by classes that can provide more than just one or two days of firearm shooting. A class in defensive martial arts gives the confidence in being able to handle oneself during an emergency or threat. All my daughters have spent many many months in martial arts training. As to firearms training I have no problem with them receiving it from a male instructor among other males, I am sure they will do much better than a lot of the males in any class.

In continuing the mind set that female's need to be treated different is a sexist philosophy that has held them back for centuries from achieving equal pay for equal work or recognition for their achievements. The largest trainer of female shooters treats them no differently then their male counterparts (U.S. Army). There is a large number of female shooting champions that are sponsored by the major gun manufactures, as far a I know they are scored the same way their male counterparts are and out surpass them often.

It is time we all come into the 21st century and understand that Grandma or Mother is not going to fold when a 380, 9 mm or 38 Special is set off. If she could put up with child birth of you, I am sure she will do well in any shooting class she finds herself in.

Everyone stay safe, just don't buy her a Glock for Mothers Day, flowers would be nice or take her out for a nice dinner.
Jim

[pax]

Re point 7), that's kind of the whole thing about teaching someone how to shoot. There are ways to push people to be the very best they can be, to learn new skills and get those skills well-integrated for best performance. Someone who knows how to get women to give it their all will be a better teacher for women than someone who does not. This is true no matter how effective they are at getting men to give it their all. The instructional skillsets are closely related, but not identical.

Re points 5) and 6), for those who are only looking for a shooting class, then those points may not apply. But that's why the word defensive was bolded and italicized in the phrase, "specifically about defensive firearms training."

It's incorrect to say that nothing about the dynamics of violent crime or ways to avoid criminal violence can meaningfully be taught or learned during a 1- or 2-day class in which people also learn to shoot and handle guns with confidence and a reasonable amount of skill. They are an integral part of every defensive handgun class worth the name. I'll go so far as to say that instructors who claim to teach any type of defensive pistol work -- even down at the concealed carry permit level -- without including a mindset and awareness component, are Doing It Wrong.

Farnam and Givens both do a bang-up job on theirs. I hope someday to be as skilled at it as they.

pax,

Kathy

A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his superior skills. – John Farnam

[Glenn E. Meyer]

To follow up on Pax, I recall hearing that many women first come to firearms classes because of victimization or risks that are more likely to occur to women (or have occurred to them). Discussing their risks or past incidents and how to deal with future situations may be uncomfortable for them if in a class with men.

Men is classes can be insensitive or lack understanding. They may be bossy, stupidly flirty or trying to tell the female to do X, Y or Z - getting in the way of the instructor.

There is a feminist gun literature and one thing the authors mention is the obnoxious attitude of men being to intrusive to them in firearms situation. I've seen it from a few idiots in my time.

In continuing the mind set that female's need to be treated different is a sexist philosophy that has held them back for centuries from achieving equal pay for equal work or recognition for their achievements.

This point is not relevant to what some women may want out of a defensive firearms class as I pointed out. It is quite different from basic training so the comparison does not hold.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I would also remind posters that the OP was looking for recommendations, so let's cut down on your world view of socio-political-psychological gender issues.

Pax and I pointed out the reasons that the free market might supply such to those who want such and recommended such. If you don't think they should exist - not relevant.

If you have empirical evidence that a course such as the OP described and we recommended has been unsuccessful in achieving the goals that those in the course signed up for, please provide the evidence in another thread.