FNS-40 Issues with Baltimore Police...cured by GLOCK

[Nathan]

LINK

Interesting read. I’ve always respected the FN Pistols. I wonder if this truly is an issue or sour grapes by Baltimore PD Brass.

The one that seems like a real issue is the failure to return to battery with trigger pulled, the trigger release, then return to battery causes it to fire....scary. That is not so rare of a case! Sounds like they have mod’d strikers to fix.

Going to a Glock is possibly not addressing their fundamental issues...it is my opinion that when ad’s happen, they are often finger on trigger ad’s. I wonder how Glocks perform with a finger on the trigger ad?

[rburch]

Sounds like FN has a striker replacement to fix this issue.

https://fnamerica.com/customer-suppo...vice-bulletin/

[5whiskey]

So the trigger pin walking on 3 pistols out of nearly 2000 wouldn't concern me so much. I would wager a large amount of money that 1 in 700 AR-15s has had either trigger or hammer pin walking issues.

But but but... not firing when slightly out of batter, only to fire once it goes back into battery in this circumstance...

if force is removed from the trigger and the slide moves back into battery

No thanks. Basically once the trigger is pulled, that striker is going to go home once the slide goes into battery no matter what, even if you release the trigger first. Yeah, pass...

[Winny]

I think Baltimore ended up spending about $1.4M to replace the FN's with Glocks. Pretty hefty ticket...

I believe a few MD depts moved over to 9mm in the past couple of years as well.

[TBM900]

Political BS, far from the first time.
Someone simply didn’t like the FN pistol and Glock pounced with a ‘deal you can’t refuse’.
Glock has had more department failures then any other modern manufacturer, including agencies I’ve worked for.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by TBM900

Political BS, far from the first time.

Someone simply didn’t like the FN pistol and Glock pounced with a ‘deal you can’t refuse’.

Glock has had more department failures then any other modern manufacturer, including agencies I’ve worked for.

True, but Glock is also in more departments than many other manufacturers, so having more failures isn't entirely unexpected.

I've owned pistols from every manufacturer. I don't honestly know that Glock is really that much better than anyone else. I do think their QC is a bit more consistent than some other manufacturers and when there are problems they tend to be ones already known about. Of course exceptions still occur and Glock has certainly had its share of release problems as well.

As for FN, the reality is the FNS hasn't really enjoyed a lot of commercial or police/military success (and the same seems to be true of the 509). I don't think that it's because they are bad pistols, but it is the current reality. Honestly the last very successful pistol from FN that comes to mind is the Hi Power. Now in a company that has as diverse of a product line as FN, that's not the end of the world, but certainly their pistols aren't their main source of reputation these days.

As for people or departments dumping a manufacturer because of some issue, it could be political, or it could also just be human nature. It's not uncommon for people to dump something once they lose confidence, even if the circumstances of the event really should be examined before a decision is made.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Walt Sherrill]

An officer at the Baltimore agency obviously found a quirk in the FNS design. It was a quirk that has been addressed with an upgrade. About the only way to make that quirk matter is to do something weird that isn't done when normally (and safely) handling the gun.

FN has modified the Striker assembly and now this won't happen. Here's the notice:

FN recently became aware of a condition found within the FNS family of pistols that, under a very limited and unlikely set of circumstances, could cause the pistol to delay fire after the trigger is initially pulled. This condition can only be replicated in FNS pistols manufactured before February 12, 2017.

To our knowledge, this delayed-fire condition has only occurred in controlled testing environments; FN has not received any reports of delayed fire in the field under these unusual circumstances.

The condition may result after the FNS pistol slide is forced out of battery at a very small and specific distance, such as what might occur if the muzzle end of the slide is pressed against an object, and the trigger is pulled. The pistol functions as designed and does not fire. However, if the condition occurs, one of two scenarios may result: (1) if the trigger is held to the rear, the pistol could delay firing until the time when the slide moves back into battery, or (2) if force is removed from the trigger and the slide moves back into battery, the pistol could fire if jarred. In the unlikely event that scenario (2) occurs, keep the pistol pointed in a safe direction and rack the slide to the rear to reset the pistol. Avoid a “tap, rack, bang” clearing sequence.

While this condition is highly unlikely to occur in the normal course of operation, out of an abundance of caution FN is offering to substitute the striker in affected FNS-9, FNS-9 Longslide, FNS‑9 Compact, FNS-40, FNS-40 Longslide, and FNS-40 Compact pistols free of charge. Once the striker is replaced, the condition no longer occurs. Not all FNS serial numbers are affected by this condition. Therefore, FNS owners are asked to please use the serial number lookup found below. If the pistol is affected, further instruction on returning the FNS for service will be provided. Note: Please do not ship any affected product to FN until a FedEx label has been generated and sent. If the firearm is not affected, a message stating such will be displayed.

The FN description of of the problem exactly matches what an Arizona agency found in one accidental discharge there, and it could be similar to what the Baltimore officer experienced. In both cases, though, an unusual form of gun handling happened. In both cases, those situations appear to disable the striker safety, even though the trigger was released (which should have re-enabled the striker safety.

I have three (bought USED) FNS pistols, and FNAmerica paid for shipping to and from the factory; I sent them to FN on January 2 and got them back on January 13.

Some FN Forum members claim that they think their triggers were improved by the Striker upgrade. I didn't notice that -- but I'm glad I sent them in for an upgrade. A few folks say they're not sending theirs FNSs in for the upgrade. Since it's paid for, I don't understand that mindset. (Maybe their FNS is an ONLY "carry" gun?)

I've mentioned this before (in other discussions where FN weapons are discussed), but I'll mention it again: FN's warranty is a warranty of the gun, and it remains in effect whether the gun was bought NEW or whether it's USED and in the hands of its sixth or tenth owner.

FNAmerican paid the shipping both ways for this recall, but I wouldn't expect them to pay shipping TO THEM in the future if I have a problem with one of my FNS weapons. (If the guns were bought NEW, and the problem was something very unusual I might expect them to pay the freight, but it really would likely depend on the nature of the work problem.)

.

[Lohman446]

I think Baltimore ended up spending about $1.4M to replace the FN's with Glocks. Pretty hefty ticket...

Pretty cheap compared the punitive damages for a death caused by a known trigger control issue when the officer defense is "I didn't intend to shoot"

[5whiskey]

Walt that is good information. I don’t hold it against FN so long as they’ve allieviated the issue. Lots of quality firearms have had voluntary recalls.

[MagnumWill]

Yesss... more police surplus pistols...

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by Lohman446

Pretty cheap compared the punitive damages for a death caused by a known trigger control issue when the officer defense is "I didn't intend to shoot"

Hmm..$730 per..must have been magazines or something...seems like almost 2000 of these(1920?), they would have gotten a 'deal'...Even at retail, a little of $1million..

[CUBAN REDNECK]

Anyone remember when the Washington Metro PD blamed Glock for ADs/NDs in the late 1990's? USATODAY ran a week long report excoriating the "terrible" design flaws and inherent dangerousness of Glocks. Ultimately it turned out to be a training issue, coupled with anti-Glock propaganda. Funny how now Glock is the savior.

[Walt Sherrill]

I'm a BIG FN fan, and while it is truly a quirky situation that can cause a true "accidental" discharge with an FNS weapon, it still shouldn't happen.

FN described the problem in emails and a website notice:

• In one situation, if the trigger is NOT allowed to reset after it's pulled until the slide has returned to battery, the striker safety may stay disabled, and the striker may later release on it's own after a slight delay.

• In the other situation, by pressing the muzzle against an unyielding surface just enough to start slide movement, the striker safety may again be disabled. FN hasn't explained how FAR the slide has to move, but I've seen videos of this occurring and the weapon then being struck, causing an unintended discharge.

I can imagine the first situation happening, but not by an officer holstering his weapon, which was supposedly the case with the Baltimore event.

I can see HOW the second situation might happen if the muzzle or slide is slightly depressed inadvertently while holstering, but that doesn't explain how the slide was then struck, causing an unintentional discharge.

In either case, racking the slide (which would remove the live round from the chamber and replacing it with a fresh one) would reset the striker properly.

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by CUBAN REDNECK

Anyone remember when the Washington Metro PD blamed Glock for ADs/NDs in the late 1990's? USATODAY ran a week long report excoriating the "terrible" design flaws and inherent dangerousness of Glocks. Ultimately it turned out to be a training issue, coupled with anti-Glock propaganda. Funny how now Glock is the savior.

Important point, IMHO...Accidental Discharge due to design flaw VS Negligent Discharge due to crappy training..Sounds like the FN was a design problem, the 'NG' with Glocks and other strikers, training...

[Snuffy308]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's a reason glocks reside in the holsters of approx. 65% of people wearing a badge.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Snuffy308

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

But is IS broke... FN acknowledges it, and offers a fix. It's just not BADLY broke, I had my "broke(n)" FNS guns fixed. It took less than two weeks, and didn't cost me a cent.

Originally Posted by Snuffy308

There's a reason glocks reside in the holsters of approx. 65% of people wearing a badge.

I agree, but I suspect it has much more to do with marketing savvy and deep pockets than a trouble-free design.

Glock, as a business, apparently felt that getting into the LEO market was the best way to also establish itself in the civilian market, and that seemed to work. Glock did it, in part, by offering "sweetheart" deals to some of the early agencies approached. S&W and SIG later also offered those kinds of deals in some markets, as did Beretta. Ruger never tried to use that approach, and has seemingly ignored the LEO market.

[Snuffy308]

Or it could be that glock just works.

[Walt Sherrill]

I like Glocks. I've had a number of them. I still have two. I think they do work. But the LEO departments DID NOT KNOW THIS when they were first introduced! They believed they worked as they should -- but there was no track record.

Good guns. Better marketing.

[Nathan]

Glocks are broke....why don’t Glock fix ‘em ?

[Snuffy308]

Remember Occam's razor. The correct answer to a question is usually the simplest. Forums are filled with glockaphobes. The simple fact is that a large majority of those who carry a firearm for a living carry glocks. We are perplexed by this seemingly paradox of fact because we know that glocks are worthless and must proffer rationalizations to support our beliefs. Answer: they work.

[Nathan]

Glocks are broke....why don’t Glock fix ‘em ?

Maybe I’m not clear enough. Glock pistols have a history of AD/ND in service. Unlike many other companies, Glock has adamantly refused to accept that their design correlates with AD/ND. ....and they don’t have to because they have created a fan base like no other. ...not just supporters, but worshipers of the Glock name.

How do they keep PD’s quiet? Low prices and I suspect a great sales program.

[TunnelRat]

Maybe I’m not clear enough. Glock pistols have a history of AD/ND in service. Unlike many other companies, Glock has adamantly refused to accept that their design correlates with AD/ND. ....and they don’t have to because they have created a fan base like no other. ...not just supporters, but worshipers of the Glock name

Their design doesn't correlate with AD/ND. Poor firearm handling correlates with AD/ND. Their design is less tolerant than some others, but a finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be is not a good situation.

[JohnKSa]

How do they keep PD’s quiet?

They don't have to "keep PD's quiet". Pulling the trigger on a loaded gun when there is no intent to fire the gun is clearly negligence.

How can a PD blame the gun or the gunmaker because it's unsafe to break one of the three primary rules of gun safety? Of course it's unsafe to break the rules of gun safety. That's why they're called the rules of gun safety.

If the guns were going off by themselves, then Glock would be in trouble. But (and it's kind of sad to have to state this explicitly since it's a tautology) as long as the problem is people failing to follow one of the three basic rules of gun safety, the problem is people failing to follow the gun safety rules.

[USNRet93]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat

Their design doesn't correlate with AD/ND. Poor firearm handling correlates with AD/ND. Their design is less tolerant than some others, but a finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be is not a good situation.

Thanks, what he said..this 'Glock design CAUSES AD/ND' is tiresome...

[Nathan]

....this 'Glock design CAUSES AD/ND'....

Who said that?

I said:

Glock pistols have a history of AD/ND in service. Unlike many other companies, Glock has adamantly refused to accept that their design correlates with AD/ND. ....and they don’t have to because they have created a fan base like no other. ...not just supporters, but worshipers of the Glock name.

I think the last 2 posts make my point. The logic that if a user violates some “gun laws” which they have no legal responsibility to know or care about....Are these department policy and they are bound to them contractually?

Does Glock make its buyers enter in to some agreement that finger on trigger absolves Glock of all responsibility? I’m just asking.

For background...I own a Glock 23. I trust it. It has a light on it. I trust its mechanism to function. I trust myself to handle it safely. I will not carry it. It is too wide. I have narrower and safer guns to carry.