I Could Barely Kill Pack Rats With .22LR-Remington Thunderbolt. Why?

[Road_Clam]

Im not surprised. My urine arc has more velocity than Thunderterds !

[Mike38]

To be brutally honest, I'm surprised that Remington Thunderbolts are accurate enough to hit a rat.

[shurshot]

In the early 90's I took out several woodchucks (all FAR bigger that rats), using a Ruger pistol and .22 Rem Thunderbolts. Head shots. Worked fine. I later switched to PMC Zappers, which had a little more pep. .

[Double K]

I shoot lots of stuff with sub-sonic hollow points, as long as they open up and transfer all the energy to the little rodent with shrapnel going every direction it's almost instant death. There also a mess to clean up btw.
I would rate these as the #1 hp subsonic on the market today, others are as accurate these do the most damage I've ever seen. They have a large hollow point.
https://www.brownells.com/ammunition...prod87474.aspx

Ammunition description
"With its innovative hollow nosed profile, the ELEY subsonic hollow projectile delivers unequalled expansion characteristics, resulting in short penetration with outstanding stopping power; essential features for vermin control .The non-greasy lubricant provides smooth operation in semi-automatic rifles and improves functioning in all weather conditions."

[wizrd]

You underestimate the toughness of those pack rats. A few years ago, shot one next to my house, (same ammo)- not dead, ran into the brush. 3 days later he came by, dragging a about a foot of entrails behind him from being gut-shot.

[Double K]

I've probably shot a dozen pack rats I've caught in live traps{relocation!} with 22 birdshot, anywhere in the front half will kill them. Shot another dozen with a 177 pellet gun, all rolled over and did the sky walk. Have yet to encounter one of the "super rats" described here. A regular old school rat trap kills them dead instantly.
These are my favorites because they're so easy to set then clean out, I buy them by the dozen. They live in the scrub oak around buildings here then move into garden sheds and detached garages this time of year.
https://www.amazon.com/Professional-...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

[Double Naught Spy]

Have yet to encounter one of the "super rats" described here.

I find most claims of animal toughness to really boil down to nothing more than shots that fail to do significant damage to the CNS system. Like the above described tough gut-shot rat, well you can shoot a lot of animals and people in the guts and they will run. Why? Nothing immediately vital there.

I have read descriptions of some deer being said to be tough, plus countless descriptions of hogs, coyotes, opossums, raccoons, and mountain lions said to be tough. Again, it almost always comes down to shots not doing the damage that they need to do and that usually comes down to the animals not being shot in the right places. The animals may die, just not on the spot where they were shot. A hog shot through the heart may run 75-100 yards before the brain runs out of oxygen. This isn't an issue of being tough. The shot to the heart won't necessarily result in the hog dropping dead at the point of impact and failure to take out its means of locomotion (legs and girdles) means the hog can still run, for 10-20 seconds, and cover a lot of distance.

As for needing hollowpoint ammo because these rounds are like FMJ and make "tiny holes," you have to realize the tiny hole is HUGE relative to the size of a rat. Think about it this way. A .22 lr bullet is about the same diameter as a rat's wrist. Imagine a hole about the size of your wrist going through your body. Is that a big hole? Sure, and it is many many times the size of what would be produced by a 9mm bullet, right?

Or, on average rat weighs about a half pound, or 7000 grains. It is being shot with a 40 grain bullet that is 1/175th of the rat's weight. Compare that with a 9mm 115 gr. bullet being shot at about the same velocity at an adult human of 180 lbs or 2,520,000 grains, the bullet being 1/21913th of the human's weight.

A 40 gr. round nose bullet should be more than adequate for killing a rat, without expanding or fragmenting, if the shooting does his/her part.

Airgun folks are regularly killing rats with the same or smaller caliber pellets that are lighter in weight and likely often lower in velocity than what the OP is shooting. They make good shots and put rats down.

[50 shooter]

You need to check a couple things, 7000 grains in a pound. So 3,500 grs in half a pound but I think most knew where you were going.

180 x 7K is 1,260,000 grs., just a minor correction on these. That would make a 40gr bullet 1/31,500th a humans weight.

[rickyrick]

I don’t think you can barely kill something

The process is slower than most think, there’s rarely a “bang-dead” scenario. Even total destruction of the central nervous system can result in several minutes of spasms, twitches and other motions that may seem bizarre. I’ve even seen animals on their back with legs in the air with running movements. In time, if you hunt enough... you can tell when the animal is gone and when it is still suffering. In all but a few scenarios will there will always be movement.
Where you shoot them matters. I’ve never shot rats before, but if I was to do so, my first choice would be in the neck. If a good neck shot doesn’t present, then I’ll go for the heart-lungs.
Neck shots seem to get the unpleasant business over the quickest in my experience.

Things can go wrong that don’t make sense.
I once shot a trapped boar with a 45colt (Buffalo Bore factory ammo I think) square in the middle of the top of the head. (I was standing over the cage)
I saw the bullet exit out of its chest and hit the dirt, blood poured out, pig fell over. I went to the tool box on the truck to retrieve a rope to drag the pig out of the trap and when I turned back around the pig was up, milling around the trap. Of course, I immediately shot him below the ear and done.

I went to school to become a paramedic years ago, so I learned to recognize the onset of death, and witnessed it. I graduated, and then went to school for electronics, so I never worked as a paramedic outside of the required clinical hours.

Killed is killed, but rarely instant.

[Double K]

Actually it can be instant, over and over and over again. I use a 17hmr when not in city limits and it's safe, any solid hit in the front half kills them instantly. They're using a 17wsm, a rimfire not significantly larger than a 17hmr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myT5_y5comY

[rickyrick]

A lot of those were indeed still moving and of course the video is cut immediately after most of the shots. From a long distance, it does appear to be a bang-dead scenario.
Death can be fast, but not instant.

What can be instant is in consciousnesses and incapacitation.

A second look, I see more than one that is still squirming before the video is edited.

[Hanshi]

I find your results with those .22LR rounds puzzling and a bit troubling. Yes, shot placement and power make a difference. I used to shoot Norway rats with CCI .22 mag SHOT cartridges and it killed them DRT. We don't have packrats, at least not the rodent kind, where I've lived; but we do have some pretty large critters that are pests or small game.

[Double K]

Quote "A lot of those were indeed still moving and of course the video is cut immediately after most of the shots. From a long distance, it does appear to be a bang-dead scenario.
Death can be fast, but not instant.
What can be instant is in consciousnesses and incapacitation.
A second look, I see more than one that is still squirming before the video is edited."

Two were definitely not dead instantly, both were low hits, the other 14 looked to be dead on impact to me Ricky, I've never seen one squirm after being nearly ripped in half by that little 17 bullet and I've shot a truck load of them.
Getting back to the op, my guess is most shots were edge hits or to far towards the cabooses on his pack rats.

[ThomasT]

If you can find them try some Winchester Power Point 22s. I have read they were developed to kill the 10 pound Australian Hares.

[10-96]

I don’t think you can barely kill something

Ricky, I don't know why that reminds me of my first wife, but I think I was there- barely killed.

[stephen426]

No offense, but it is about shot placement. Iguanas are really tough animals, especially the big ones. I anchored a 5 footer with a single shot to the head. It did not even twitch. I shoot .25 caliber H&N Barracuda Extreme pellets at around 900 FPS out of a Benjamin Marauder. I normally aim for the base of the neck and destroy the spine or try to put it through the eyes.

I imagine head shots that destroy the brains of a rat will kill it pretty dead as well. I’ve watch rodent pest control videos on YouTube where they used air rifles with night vision scopes. If you can’t kill a rat with .22 LR, it isn’t because the rat has super powers. I nailed an iguana at the range with a 9mm. That darn thing still went a few feet. Another guy nailed one with a .45 ACP. It still walked away.

https://youtu.be/PpH7YbxHOVw

[Double K]

The nervous system of cold blooded animals {reptiles} is very different than warm blooded animals {mammals}, cut a snakes head of and they can still strike you with the stump, likewise the head can still deliver a bite. No mammal can do that, shooting expectation's should be adjusted accordingly.

Here's the explanation from the web, Reptiles,
Because their bodies aren't generating their own heat, their energy and oxygen requirements are lower. This is how some cold-blooded, or ectothermic, animals are able to survive conditions without oxygen for periods of time. And it's why snakes (and other reptiles) continue to move after being bisected.

[T. O'Heir]

"...why 22LR is not great for SD..." You get attacked by rats assorted that much do you? As mentioned, shot placement matters with small game and varmints.
"...dispatch large rodents..." Average weight of an adult male pack rat is 14 ounces. Big ones go to 21 ounces. That's about the same as a tree rat.
A Thunderbolt is a 40 grain, HV, LRN. It'll kill a charging, 21 ounce pack rat with no fuss. HP's or frangible's(all lead .22's are that) are necessary.

[Onward Allusion]

^^^If you think 22LR will do it for you then by all means carry it. Like I'd said in many posts before and probably many more in the future - Carry what you are comfortable with. For me, 22LR is my backup.

[adn258]

Thanks everyone here for their feedback! I would like to think we had decent shot placement and some people here were suggesting THUNDERBOLT sucks for killing even rats (it's strictly for plinking). That could easily be the case. There was even one instance one was down and alive and we were shooting it multiple times at point blank range (like 5 to 6 times) before it actually died.

At one point and I wish I was exaggerating, there was blood splattering on the walls as we would hit rats multiple times and they would still keep running. I'm thinking I need to get some hollow point rounds next time.

I really appreciate all your feedback guys!

[Rangerrich99]

I respectfully suggest that it might just be that you did in fact shoot them properly, but because of the low velocity/small caliber of the .22lr, they just didn't know they were dead yet. And any that flop and twitch are dead; you hit them in the CNS somewhere and all that twitching is just autonomic response.

When I go prairie dog hunting, I take a couple .22s with me, just for close range shots.

I usually aim for the upper chest/belly area, and hit them the first time the majority of the time. But because the .22 is so slow and small it usually takes some time before they die. Minutes even. But they all die.

If I feel like they're taking too long about it and making me feel bad, I'll either hit them with my AR-15 or put another .22 in them if I can see their heads.

As someone pointed out earlier, to a rat a .22lr is like shooting a person with a slow-moving .50 cal/20 mm round. They're going to die, but it might take some time for them to bleed out. If you need them to die faster, shoot them with a faster bullet. Maybe high velocity .22lr would do it.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Rangerrish99

As someone pointed out earlier, to a rat a .22lr is like shooting a person with a slow-moving .50 cal/20 mm round. They're going to die, but it might take some time for them to bleed out. If you need them to die faster, shoot them with a faster bullet. Maybe high velocity .22lr would do it.

Thunderbolt is high velocity -- 1255 fps. The problem is that it's round-nose, not hollow point. There won't be any expansion.

[cecILL]

Dispatched many coon and possum with a single .22 short between the ears.

[doofus47]

Were you shooting the leader of the pack?
It matters....

[44 AMP]

consider a change of weapons, instead of a .22 use a good .357 or .38special loaded with wadcutters. I'd suggest loading them down to about 600fps or so. The mass of the bullet hitting the rat is about equal to you or me getting hit with a bowling ball (or cannon ball). It is quite effective, and improves your pistol shooting at the same time!

(and that's only partially sarcastic. I've dispatched a lot of rodents with light pistol loads, though you do still have to hit them right.)