Long range distance for self defense

[briandg]

I guess a dozen years ago there was a feud going on between two families here in mcdonald county. At least I think that it was mcdonald, everything about that place is nuts.

This feud went on for years. Police, search lights, vandalism, etc. Just neighborhood squabbles that are absolutely out of control. They both owned land down there. One day the hatfields were working outside and the mccoys drove up. Several of them drew out rifles and started shooting!

I don't know if they were actually shooting to hit or just laying down rounds to scare them. The hatfields ran like heck and hid behind a wagon or truck or something. These shots were coming from about forty yards. None of the targets had guns. The bad guys could have just walked up and popped them.

They should have been carrying, imo. The hatfields had shown that they were freakin nuts. If they had been carrying pistols and had trained for longer range, they would have been prepared if the nut squad had pursued them.

There is no reason to spend your entire life training at thirty feet, and that is all that some people do anymore. Anyone who expects to defend himself needs to practice the discipline and skills required for longer ranges, maybe up to thirty yards. Whatever else they accomplish, they will develop better handling skills and again, discipline.

You don't know what the future holds. So (maybe) you wear your seat belt, brush your teeth, own life insurance, and carry a gun. Carrying a gun isn't good enough, you need to know how to use it, and part of knowing how to use it is being proficient beyond hitting silhouettes at twenty feet.

For the record, you are being grotesquely negligent if your guns aren't sighted in properly. Yes, that is just my opinion. You may someday be called upon to shoot a rampaging rabid coyote that's trying to eat your chihuahua.

[UncleEd]

I own a chihuahua?????

[briandg]

We have an enormous casino here. As big as a vegas one. They have a swat team. Armed security guards.

They use my range sometimes to train. I've never seen anything more ridiculous than men training with rifles and even automatic weapons at 30-40 feet. The parking lot, where they would need rifles, covers an entire city block. Rapid fire Shooting at a silhouette with a rifle at forty feet isn't training.

[briandg]

I own a chihuahua?????

Maybe it was a possum that I saw. If it's only a possum you don't need to shoot the coyote.

[MTT TL]

Originally Posted by briandg

We have an enormous casino here. As big as a vegas one. They have a swat team. Armed security guards.

They use my range sometimes to train. I've never seen anything more ridiculous than men training with rifles and even automatic weapons at 30-40 feet. The parking lot, where they would need rifles, covers an entire city block. Rapid fire Shooting at a silhouette with a rifle at forty feet isn't training.

Firstly it is training. Secondly just because that is what you saw them do does not mean that is all they did or do.

[pete2]

I don't know about most folks but I carry a 642 revolver, I'm pretty good with it out to 15 yards, 15 to 25 I keep them on an IDPA target, not all in the 0 down center tho. It ain't the same as shooting off a bench with a bullseye gun, it ain't even like precision pistol at 50 yards. If I were to get into a fire fight with 5 or 10 guys I'm a goner. 1 or 2 guys at 10 feet, I got a chance. Ain't no guarantees.................................

[UncleEd]

Pete2,

Your views are realistic and sound.

So get outta here!

[briandg]

Firstly it is training. Secondly just because that is what you saw them do does not mean that is all they did or do.

Are you convinced that they practice any more thoroughly? I talked with the trainer. When he said that they always use that fifty foot range because of the solid benches for all of the gear, it implies that they don't go to the fifty yard or 600 yard berms.

Sure, maybe he's not the only trainer, maybe they go to the other private range for longer range practice, but the implication of what he said is that they fire their rifles at the same distance as they do their pistols. 30-50 feet.


No, I don't think that banging at a silhouette at fifty feet with a combat rifle is training, it is the opposite, IMO. it's a rifle If you intend to use it at longer ranges as well as close ranges, learning how to keep it in the kill zone at 30 feet is actually rather detrimental when you have to reach out to five times that distance. Starting out without a challenge doesn't start you off on the right path.

[briandg]

pete.

There is one guarantee that you can have. It's murphy's law. The one time that you need that gun is going to be when you are stuck in traffic and a guy with buckshot about six cars up thinks that you slept with his wife.

What is the best way to win a gunfight?

Not sleeping with anyone else's wife is a good place to start.

[MTT TL]

I talked with the trainer. When he said that they always use that fifty foot range because of the solid benches for all of the gear, it implies that they don't go to the fifty yard or 600 yard berms.

What a team responsible for protecting millions of dollars in cash might tell you and what they might actually do could very well be two different things.

No, I don't think that banging at a silhouette at fifty feet with a combat rifle is training, it is the opposite, IMO. it's a rifle If you intend to use it at longer ranges as well as close ranges, learning how to keep it in the kill zone at 30 feet is actually rather detrimental when you have to reach out to five times that distance. Starting out without a challenge doesn't start you off on the right path.

Interesting. So I guess everyone is doing it wrong then. Good luck squaring everyone away.

[OneFreeTexan]

Briandg, I enjoy your posts, A lot of wisdom there, even if it isn’t popular

[TailGator]

What is the best way to win a gunfight?

Not sleeping with anyone else's wife is a good place to start.

That doesn't always work. I had a stretch of threatening phone calls a few years back. Some yahoo was using my name and meeting a woman at a bar I had never heard of. It didn't end until I got the local sheriff's office in contact with the jilted husband. I am pretty sure that the guy doing the cuckolding was a professional colleague.

[briandg]

This has caused problems with the phone number spoofing. People are finding unfamiliar numbers on phones and answering machines and assuming that a stranger is calling their wives or husbands, and comedy ensues. I've had my name taken and used, and I've had a number of people call me back and demand to know why I was calling them. Some are nasty. sometimes I get nasty. One guy thought that his wife was cheating and wanted to pound me. He found the number on her phone somehow.

One time I got one that I looked up and it turned out to be a local insurance office. He nearly cried on the phone when I called him and told him that his phone had been scammed. That's cold, messing with a businesses number and spamming it out by the thousands of calls.

I never imagined that I would receive physical threats because of a phone call that I didn't even make. Danger lurks everywhere!

[MTT TL]

One guy thought that his wife was cheating and wanted to pound me.

We actually had a local get arrested a couple of weeks ago for assaulting his wife for this very reason. It has gotten nutty.

[Doc Holliday 1950]

I practice regularly(2times/week) at 15 feet & sometimes up to 40 feet at my indoor range. I feel that only in an extreme situation would I attempt a shot further than that. From what I've read about "Stand your Ground" laws here in Fl. I'd be in big quano
if I ever tried to shoot long distance with a Pistol/revolver. In my mind, I carry concealed for one reason & that's to protect my wife, myself and other innocent bystanders. SD shooting long distance just does not appeal to me

[Mike38]

In practice / training, 50 yard shots are not that unimaginable. Look at Precision Pistol (Bullseye) competitors, they do it one handed. In an actual self defense circumstance, probably more like 25 yards would be max. But, if someone was lobbing shots at me at say 100 yards and all I had was a handgun and no cover, you best believe I'd be returning fire, while moving to cover of course. .

[DaveBj]

I'm still maxing at 25 meters; not ready to try farther than that. I was short on ammo yesterday, so I didn't do a lot at long range. I was using a target that looks like the outline of an oversize bowling pin. With a double-handed grip and elbows supported on the shooting table, I got three in the "head" and one in the "neck" (and one flyer). With a double-handed free-standing grip, I got all five in the "body". I've been shooting regularly for only a couple months, so I was rather pleased with myself. Practice may not make perfect yet, but it does make for improvement

D

[Nanuk]

Nanuk, I hear an echo from several posts up, LOL. However, your alternation of the information you are citing is a bit weird. It was EARLY, Texas, not Brady, Texas which is ~50 miles away in a completely different county. In the article you cite, it isn't 75 yards (or 225 feet) but 150 feet (50 yards).

LOL, Brady, Early its 50 miles in Texas........

Seriously, I could not remember all the details, Thanks for the correction.

[Nanuk]

For years I have always practice shooting my 1911 at 50 and a hundred yards and folks always reply that the gun is not a match for a rifle. I know it is not a match for a rifle, but my reply is would you rather be closer to the person shooting a rifle in a mall or farther. I plan to never get into a shooting scenario with a person carrying an AR15 or rifle, but if my plans fail me which happens on occasion I am very well prepared to shoot at various distances up to a 100 yards with my side arm. Normally and consistently I can hit 5 out of 7 shots into a paper plate at 100 yards. Still working on getting all seven.

Cudo's to you. You probably know and shoot your pistol better than most rifle shooters.

[armoredman]

I tried it after the Garlic Festival shooting, set the 3/4 IDPA steel out to 55 yards, (thought it was 50, paced it wrong), and drew from concealment, fired three rounds standing. If I didn't get two clangers I moved to a braced position, (assumed to be concealment, or HOPEFULLY cover), and fired three more. If I didn't get two clangers I was dead because even in the middle of the hubbub of screaming and running he has GOT to notice someone shooting AT him eventually. This was one good group...



BUT, that was three rounds - where did number 3 go? Grandma wheeling away frantically on the other side?
It was quite humbling how many times I "died" doing this goofy little drill. Of course with a RIFLE it became quite easy, but even in AZ it's not usually practical to carry a rifle everywhere. I now try to do this semi-regularly, try to get better. This was on a brightly lit open square range, with the target standing there waiting to get hit and not shooting back at me. Doing this force on force with simunitions would be eye opening indeed.

[sparkyv]

Originally Posted by gwpercle

Becoming proficient at 25 and 50 yards makes up close shots extremely easy and is a big confidence booster .

Gary

^^^This^^^

[Smoke Jensen]

Originally Posted by OneFreeTexan

Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.

It is if you are involved in an "active shooter event". Taking out an armed person shooting up a school or business may very well present a 50’ shot. That would be legal and the right thing to do. My carry gun is sighted in to 50’.

[TraumaRN]

Thanks to all who have responded. I decided to extend the range of my defensive shooting practice. It’s been eye opening and shown me how much training is ahead. First goal to gain proficiency/mastery at 35 yards with .357 and 45 Colt and then 50 yards. Additionally , started using a PACT timer to follow my times from drawing from concealment to target (ouch, I’m slow). The longest range I can practice is 120 yards but that’s a long way off

[ms6852]

One of the best ways to get real proficient with a hand gun is to practice with a 22 lr. I use a browning buck mark and a SW 617. I first start at 3 yards than move to 5, and 7, 10,15, 20 and 25. At this distance you will notice that your group and point of aim is spot on at 3 and 5 yards, but once you move to 7 and beyond you began to notice that the accuracy will began to falter a little.

One thing that I notice when I shoot at 50 or 100 yards with my 1911 is that you really don't have to adjust your aim high. You basically aim where you want to hit, if you try to compensate by aiming high you may end up shooting high. I recommend shooting into a berm if possible when you get started, as this will show bullet impacts which is very helpful.

[44 AMP]

It is a long observed fact, that when put in a crisis situation, most people will do what ever it is that they have trained to do, and practiced doing. Right or wrong for the situation, when you don't have time to think about it, you will react below the conscious level.

Examples abound in life, here's a couple,

A fellow I knew was an avid bow hunter. The previous year he had missed a shot on "a grand buck" at 40yds.

He had enough range behind his house, and practiced all summer, nearly every day, so he wouldn't miss that 40 yard shot again. The next deer season, a buck popped up 15 yards from him. He lined up, and shot right over it.

Now, bow trajectory is more extreme than pistols, but you get the idea. Don't just practice ONE thing all he time.

If you haven't practiced at long range, go ahead, but leave the timer off for a while. Martial arts masters will tell you that when learning you should make haste slowly...this means learn what to do, but don't try to be fast, fast is for later...look at how they do kata, its done slooowly, done to learn the right forms and counters, learn them until they become something you don't need to think about.

There are similarities to be found in pistol shooting as well. I shoot handguns at long range for recreation. Been doing it long enough its not a difficult task. I don't try to rush, I focus on getting hits. I've found this makes shooting at closer range easier, and shooting faster at close range becomes a matter of practicing something you already know how to do.