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Old September 4, 2019, 08:51 PM   #101
labnoti
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To take shots at extended ranges, the backstop has to be factored in. If there was a valid target at 50 or 100 yards and a clean backstop, it could very well be advisable to take shots. Why not?

On the other hand, there is no one for whom it is advisable to take a handgun shot on a live "hostage target" at 75 yards. If there are bystanders or unseen/unknown objects in the backstop, then there are almost certainly better options than shooting.

For reference, I have seen a handgun class of a dozen different people shoot at 50, 75, 100, and 200 yards. The class consisted of shooters that were serious, not beginners, but not necessarily remarkably skilled. They were shooting Glocks, 19 and 17. From supported positions, they had no trouble hitting 10" steel at 50 yards. They could consistently hit 14" steel at 75 yards from prone. On a steel IDPA silhouette at 100 yards they could hit 8 or 9 out of 10 times. On 6-foot steel target at 200 yards they missed slightly more often than they hit -- maybe 4 hits out of 10. Again, that's shooting prone.

Someone with decent marksmanship should be able to make a small group at 10 yards. Inch and a half? That's 15 MOA. At 100 yards, that group might only be 15 inches. Those could be hits. Not "hostage target" hits, but hits.

My conclusion is, use support and be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Again, in some live target scenario, you have to think beyond whether you can hit. At those long ranges, it's not practical to place shots precisely. It's also not practical to make multiple hits in rapid succession. Does it matter? Are hits to the legs and arms better than no hits? Will you simply be drawing fire on your position? Do you have cover? There are too many unknowns to say whether a shot should be taken or not.

It's worth practicing at long range with support. Don't burn up ammo without sense. Start where you can make hits, and move it out from there. If you can't make hits at extended range, it's probably trigger control.

Last edited by labnoti; September 4, 2019 at 08:57 PM.
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Old September 5, 2019, 12:43 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
I own a chihuahua?????
I have seen chihuahuas kill pit bulls all the time, they choke on them!
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Old September 5, 2019, 07:36 AM   #103
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To take shots at extended ranges, the backstop has to be factored in. ...

My conclusion is, use support and be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
The backstop, target, and beyond need to be factored in regardless of the distance you are shooting. This is a recent example of a short self defense distance shooting going terribly wrong... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/02/u...ton-texas.html
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Old September 6, 2019, 01:48 PM   #104
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I've finally succumbed to views that long range
shooting is a help in desperate situations.

So I've attached for 300-yard shots an 18-power
scope on the top strap of my carry piece, an
NAA Sidewinder.
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Old September 6, 2019, 04:29 PM   #105
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For reference, I have seen a handgun class of a dozen different people shoot at 50, 75, 100, and 200 yards. The class consisted of shooters that were serious, not beginners, but not necessarily remarkably skilled. They were shooting Glocks, 19 and 17.....
For reference, I don't see where a class of people shooting Glocks really applies in the Revolver forum. As an illustration of what some people can and can't do with some guns, I suppose it shows something, but doesn't take into account what other people can and can't do with other guns.

the OP was asking about defensive shooting at longer ranges, without specifying how long, but longer than the usual combat range standard of 7yds.

To me, if you don't ever practice at longer ranges, be it 25, 50 or 200yards, you don't know what you and your gun are capable of at those distances, which kind of renders the question of shoot/no shoot in a defense situation at those ranges, rather moot.

The fantasy of shooting through a crowd to drop the mass killer at long range is just that. DO not model your actions, or expectations on the action heroes on TV. You won't be happy with the outcome if you do.
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Old September 6, 2019, 05:52 PM   #106
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For reference, I don't see where a class of people shooting Glocks really applies in the Revolver forum.
For reference, you introduced the first non-revolver example in post #7, the airman shooting a 9mm Beretta M9 semiautomatic pistol at 70 yards.

Maybe the thread should be moved out of the revolver forum as the topic isn't revolver-specific?
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Old September 7, 2019, 02:14 PM   #107
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Yes, I did that, as an example of how long range defensive shooting has happened. My intent was to show it happened at long range, and the fact that a semi service pistol was used was not the point.

I make a distinction between that reference and the performance of a group of shooters using Glocks. I didn't say it was off topic, I said I didn't see how it really applied.

I do take your point, though, and since most of the people replying don't carry revolvers (some don't even have any, it seems) perhaps moving the thread would be the best idea.

Done!
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Old September 7, 2019, 04:21 PM   #108
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The issue with that is... adrenaline. If you really think you can shoot a pistol during an active shooter event at any extended range... you are kidding yourself, and not something I would want to try with the shooter 50' away and wading through a crowd of people, or people running willy-nilly everywhere. That is not to say you shouldn't practice basic shooting skills at longer distances.
Pretty much this for 99% of shooters including myself.
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Old September 7, 2019, 07:09 PM   #109
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Police officer in Austin, TX shot a guy with shot at 75 yards I believe who shooting up downtown a few years ago and killed him. Oh, and I think he was holding his horse's reigns with the other hand.
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Old September 7, 2019, 10:21 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by elsancudo View Post
Police officer in Austin, TX shot a guy with shot at 75 yards I believe who shooting up downtown a few years ago and killed him. Oh, and I think he was holding his horse's reigns with the other hand.
I believe it was 104 yards, while he held his horse’s reins in 1 hand and dropped the crazy in 1 shot.
Here’s a link:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/austin-co...zed-gunman.amp
At that range, I prefer a 6.5 CM.
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Old September 8, 2019, 11:26 AM   #111
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Impossible. I read on this very website every day about what terrible shots the police are because they never train with their weapons.

Actually he was holding the reins of TWO horses.
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Old September 8, 2019, 04:36 PM   #112
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Not impossible, just rare and unique.
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Old September 8, 2019, 05:43 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by DNS
Not impossible, just rare and unique.
Not to mention lucky ... VERY lucky.
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Old September 8, 2019, 06:03 PM   #114
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Saints preserve us from so-called "experts." From the link:

Quote:
“At a minimum, it was extraordinary shot,” said Army Maj. John Plaster, a retired Special Forces operator, long-range shooting expert and author of “The Ultimate Sniper: An Advanced Training Manual for Military and Police Snipers.”

...

“It’s not impossible,” Plaster added. “Wild Bill Hickok shot bad guys from a hundred yards away with a handgun, but he was also a great shot.
Complete fabrication (or, at best, wild embellishment). Hickock killed ONE man (Davis Tutt) at long range, not plural "bad guys." The range of the Hickock-Tutt duel was 75 yards, not 100 yards. And Hickock wasn't holding the reins of two horses; he reportedly braced the barrel of his pistol on the forearm of his free arm.
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Old September 10, 2019, 01:55 PM   #115
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Recent events has got me thinking I should practice more and practice at longer ranges. What is the consensus on a a good distance to master?
"Recent events" are not a factor. Anyone who wants to improve their shooting, for whatever purpose should practice out to 25 yards and of course below that.

As you are walking around doing your daily business note the distances and conditions you live in. Could you make that shot if you had to? Be practical about it. The length of an aisle in a supermarket? Across the street, curb to curb? What's the distance from the front door of the restaurant to where you're sitting? Two car lengths? What about where you work?

Be practical. If you can't hit something important at 25 yards don't imagine that you can at 50.

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Old September 10, 2019, 07:36 PM   #116
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Long range distance for self-defense . Sounds like distance is your friend , short distance is self defense unless your in a combat zone . Practice with your firearm but for stressful situations you need that type of training . There is places for that type of practice . Easier to just have fun an shoot paper . Not everyone is cut out for Black Water Security.
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Old September 11, 2019, 11:08 AM   #117
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Distance is your friend if you train for it.

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Old September 12, 2019, 04:37 AM   #118
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Did more drills from the holster at 25 yards, dismal indeed, more practice needed. Standard Midway pistol target, missed that 8x11 sheet completely several times.
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Old September 12, 2019, 07:09 AM   #119
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In my state, Rhode Island, qualification for CCW requires you to shoot 180 out of a possible 300 at 25 yards (75 feet).

I've always been curious, at what point is self defense considered murder? Seventy five feet seems like a long way to be considered "self defense".
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Old September 12, 2019, 09:43 AM   #120
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I've always been curious, at what point is self defense considered murder? Seventy five feet seems like a long way to be considered "self defense".
There is no distance where that changes away from self defense. If your attacker is armed with a gun and you hit him at whatever distance, HE COULD HAVE HIT YOU. Therefore, you were in danger...hence it is SD.

The notion that at a given distance you can no longer defend yourself is silly. A gun gives the user the ability to project violence. Ive seen scores of students in advanced classes hit regularly at over 200yards on man size steel targets from a variety of positions. Like it became a boring drill, everybody just held the proper sight picture and managed the trigger. BANG.....ding. BANG....ding.

The limiting factor is not the justified use of force at distance. Its YOUR ability to hit at extended range. Get some training...from a good instructor. Go to Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, etc. Work your way into some of their advanced classes. If youve never taken classes of that type, you are fooling yourself about your abilities. Very few people can self teach this kind of skill
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Old September 12, 2019, 11:33 AM   #121
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To be considered self defense the following elements need to be in place:
- Means (or method)
- Opportunity
- Intent

If any of the three are lacking or unsupportable then you are likely going to have a bad day in court. So a man carrying a knife at 100' who intends to kill you is not much of a threat as he lacks the opportunity to use it.

The same man with a .22 rifle is a deadly threat.
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Old September 12, 2019, 12:50 PM   #122
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I've always been curious, at what point is self defense considered murder? Seventy five feet seems like a long way to be considered "self defense".
See above. Also note that...

Roy Dell Schmidt was shot by Charlie Whitman at over 500 yards.

Literally hundreds of people were hit at 250-490 yards Paddock in Las Vegas.

There is no set number in distance that determines when it is or is not self defense.
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Old September 14, 2019, 11:27 AM   #123
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I've always been curious, at what point is self defense considered murder? Seventy five feet seems like a long way to be considered "self defense".
Measure it. Depending on your stride walk 25 to 30 healthy steps, more or less, and see how far that is. One side of the street to another? From your front steps to the sidewalk? If your ex shows up to shoot your current and you with a shotgun could you shoot to stop the attack without being a danger to others?

Distance, as others have said, doesn't make a shooting unjustified alone.

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4. Identify your target and know what is beyond it.
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