2 custom boolit molds for MilSurp 8mm's

[Mauser Rat]

I was kicking around on the net the other night and found 2 really sweet custom boolit designs on Midsouth Shooters Supply for MilSurp 8mm's. I was told by Lee Precision that they were both designed by two guys on Cast Boolits Forum named "Oldfeller" and "45 2.1". They both carry a warning not to shoot them through the Yugo M48 which is what I shoot. The molds have to be custom made by Lee and they have been made in quantity lots previously.

I asked Lee about why there is the warning about the Yugo M48 and was told that it is because the "nose" of the boolit does not fit the throat of the M48. If this is the only problem, I am thinking of trying to make contact with Oldfeller and 45 2.1 and see if they would mind someone making modifications to the designs to fix this problem if it exists. I am assuming that they "know" something about the Yugo M48 to have put the restriction on the drawings.

What I need to know is: Are there enough M48 owners or even other MilSurp 8 mm shooters around here that would be interested in putting in a group order for a modified design boolit assuming that it is possible to get permission to make the changes? I have the boolit drawings or you can check them out at Midsouth Shooter's Supply under their "Bullet Casting" web page.

I am in the process of slugging the throat of my M48 and folks have wondered why I am doing such an anal job of doing it. 1) I am an anal retentive guy and 2) if I am going to order that mold and shoot it through my favorite rifle then I want to do it right and get the throat dimensions down to the gnat's a@@! I would recommend that anyone else considering doing this order might want to do the same on their M48 as one data point is....well....one data point and more is always better when you are anal retentive like me! Note the diameter of the lube bands as well as the warning not to shoot them in the M48's. I am making an aluminum mold to cast a lead rod to put into a partially lead filled casing to slug the throat of my M48 and will make and send rods to anybody interested in a group order of the boolit mold so that they can slug the throats of their MilSurp 8mm's.

These are Oldfeller and 45 2.1's designs:

[Mauser Rat]

Please, don't everybody crowd in here at once, I can get to you all if you just give me a little time!

OK, so I shoot a dinosaur but it is one of the sweetest actioning dinosaurs a guy could ever shoot. There is a reason that so many bolt action rifles use Paul Mauser's bolt design. Anyway, I will maybe mosey on over to Castboolits and try again there because, for some reason, that seems to be where all of the custom orders originate? And if some drunk guy does stumble in here and is interested let me know. I am still waiting for a response from the boolit designer (45 2.1) for permission to even try this thing. I am leaning towards the Maximum as that round was designed for accuracy at the greatest length - maybe 150 to 200 yards with open sights.

Now, if I was to want to do something for, say, my AR.......

And before you point it out I know that I am talking to myself here. Some of the best conversations that I have ever had are with.....me! And I don't care what those guys in the white coats said about me......

[Rangefinder]

And before you point it out I know that I am talking to myself here. Some of the best conversations that I have ever had are with.....me! And I don't care what those guys in the white coats said about me......

Hey, don't feel bad--sometimes that's the only way I can have a conversation that all parties involved understand--talking to myselves...
I don't have an M48, but would possibly be curious how a variation of that boolit might perform through my .32 Win Special if you're planning to keep the flat nose in your design mod. Squeezing it down a couple thousandths would easy and put it just the right size for my purposes. Tentatively keep me in the loop on this--I might be jumping in on this one if we get some interest. BTW: I'm under the same name on cast boolits.

[mikld]

Your idea for a slim nose on the bullet to fit the throat of your M48 certainly would work on other, more generously throated rifles, wouldn't it?

[Mauser Rat]

Rangefinder,

I definitely like that wide nose and would like to keep it so that these boolits will still go splat. I actually just got an email from 45 2.1 and am talking to him about the design. I am starting to realize that his design and what Lee eventually turned out might be different as 45 2.1, who designed the boolit, shoots an M48! I'll keep posting here and PM you if it looks like this is going somewhere.

mikld,

I'm not sure, after this first message from the guy who designed the boolit, that it will NOT be necessary to slim down the nose after all . The designer, 45 2.1, shoots an M48 and he did not say so in this first email but I think that the restriction may have been put on by Lee for some reason. I am going to slug the throat of my M48 this afternoon to see if it will fit as is in my M48. If so, that would be two M48's that it fits in and there would be no reason to change the design. I am starting to think that the drawings that Lee posted at Midsouth Shooter's might NOT be the same as what the designer drew up.

[CZVZ]

I would be interested, ... I have the Maximum and have feeding issues from the magazine anyone have insight into this problem?

[Mauser Rat]

CZVZ,

Congratulations on having the single cavity (?) mold for the Maximum. Did you get it during one of those early group buys on Castboolits? What are you shooting it out of that you are having feeding problems with? Does it hang up on the ramp? Or is it just so long that it hits the chamber at too much of an angle to slide down the throat? If you crimp it in the last groove then you must have something like a 2.860 OAL yes? My M48A has a published Max OAL of 3.250 which is close to the actual but I have had some pretty long, fuller figured spitzers that went up the ramp at too much of an angle given how long they were and did not feed smoothly.

EVERYBODY ELSE,

I have had a reply from the original designer of the Karabiner and the Maximum, a guy using the handle 45 2.1, and he is willing to work with me to figure out something. He referred me to a site:

http://www.brp.castpics.net/default.htm

that has a LOT of his other boolit designs. These are designs that 45 2.1 will feed the specs for to the owner of the machine shop, Bruce Brandt, who will then produce the molds. I don't think that the designs Bruce has posted on his site require a group purchase but if we go together and buy 10 or 15 at once that maybe we could negotiate a little on the price because Bruce will be able to set up once for a number of molds. If you order a mold, then Bruce will get the specs from 45 2.1 and make the mold. 45 2.1 referred me to and I really like the the 326-200 Silhoutte (go to the rifle 1 page on that site). The GB means that it has been Group Purchased on Castboolits before and the K means that it was designed by 45 2.1.

But I think that both the Karabiner and the Maximum, that 45 2.1 designed specifically for hunting, are still an option. Let me know what you are thinking and we can try to get this moving here unless folks feel like Group Buys belong over on Castboolits for some reason? I don't see why that would be but I haven't been around as long as some of you and I have stepped on land mines before that everybody else knew were there!

[45 2.1]

Hi...........
BRP (Bruce) makes excellent aluminum molds that are work of art suitable for long term casting. For a new cherry he requires about 15 molds ordered to waive the cherry fee. Any existing design on his website is available to anyone. I don't know what his policy on a Group Buy is....ask him.

Anybody got any other questions?

[Mauser Rat]

I have emailed Bruce (BRP Products, LLC) about making the 8mm molds in Aluminum. He is interested and seems very knowledgable. He has been very helpful with information about my Yugo M48.

Bruce has a number of stock 8mm molds that he already has the cherries for and will make them on a one-off basis with no group buy required. But he requires a minimum of 15 orders to tool up for a new design which the Karabiner and Maximum will be for him. So far there is some interest here but its not exactly burning the door down and no where near 15 orders.

So I went over to Castbullets, as I had said that I would, to see if there was additional interest over there to add to the interest here to get up to that magic 15 orders. Castboolits has an entire, very active from what I can see, section devoted just to Group Buys. I registered on Castboolits but apparently they will not let me post for 30 days for some reason. I figured that one of you guys had been over there telling them I was a nut or something.

Anyway, if this thing is to get going, then maybe someone from here that has an established account on Castboolits will go over there and post something to see if there is any interest in some 8mm boolit molds? I don't know what else to do because right now, there is not enough interest here to get the molds cut.

Any volunteers? Do I hear the sound of a lot of folks stepping BACK one step? It's confusing as all git out to me but I think there are like 10+ Group Buys in progress at a time over there. And I am burning gasoline at a terrible rate driving over to Castboolits all the time and every $ I spend on gas is one less $ that I can spend on molds! oh.....and there is the mold I just bought from Bruce in 8mm......that may add up to more than the gasoline ...............

[45 2.1]

Anyway, if this thing is to get going, then maybe someone from here that has an established account on Castboolits will go over there and post something to see if there is any interest in some 8mm boolit molds? I don't know what else to do because right now, there is not enough interest here to get the molds cut.

I've done this. Link: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=113597 You can do the same Group Buy setup here if you wish. Custom designs are really little problem. All that needs to be done is a lead throat slug for the rifle involved. Sometimes this happenstance has already occured and resulting cast bullet has been tested quite thoroughly.

Hopefully you got the 8mm Sil.

[Mauser Rat]

45 2.1,

Thanks! There is already interest over at Castboolits, thanks to your post, to add several more at least to those that have expressed interest here. It looks like maybe this thing will go now!

With regard to your question: I slugged the throat of my Yugo M48A and got a 0.329" throat diameter. I also got an OAL of 3.22" which is close to the published 3.25" so I don't see a problem with either of these boolits in an M48A if my values are typical. I believe that 45 2.1 has also shot both the Karabiner and Maximum out of an M48? Bruce (at BRP) suggested that I also measure the case at the mouth of fire formed brass and I got 0.357" on every case that I checked (at least 25+). For the others who have expressed interest in these two boolits: What rifles are you thinking of shooting the Kara. and Max. in? I don't know about any of those other 8mm's but I think this puts the issue of the M48A to rest.

The only thing of interest that I found was when I slugged the entire barrel starting at the crown and working down. There was a tight section from the crown in about a third of the length of the barrel and then the slug pretty much fell the rest of the way to the breech. From what I have been reading, this is good for accuracy as long as it is not too tight. My barrel slug came out at .322" which would have been only from the crown down about the last third of the bore. On one of the throat slugs, I purposely used a really long lead rod that also gave me the bore diameter after the throat which came out as .323" which is spec for the Mauser.

SO......

I will go with either the Karabiner or the Maximum. I would like to get them both eventually. I will also go 2 or 4 cavity on the mold. I don't look for huge production in a rifle boolit but a 4 cavity is not so big as to cause newbies like me any trouble.

If I had my druthers I'd vote for the Maximum first and the Karabiner later but I am flexible on that too. Both of these boolits look good to me. Somebody on the Castboolits site (that 45 2.1 was nice enough to set up - it really helps to get someone who has done this before once or 100 times) suggested a four cavity with 2 of each: 2 Karabiner and 2 Maximum's. I don't know how that would work for Bruce but think that it will still require 2 cherries and so the minimum purchase for something like that might go up to 30?

Yes, as to your other question, I sent Bruce a check for the 326-200 Silh yesterday. The only thing that I have to worry about is Bruce getting fed up with teaching me so much about my own da&* rifle that he gives me the money back and tells me to get lost! I am starting to get the idea that Bruce knows his way around a rifle.

There are so few 8mm options out there. I've got some decent molds from Lee but the C324-175-1R is just not going to cut it in the M48. Once I seat the boolit I can't see it anymore! Thanks for the tip on the Silh.

[45 2.1]

Bruce (at BRP) suggested that I also measure the case at the mouth of fire formed brass and I got 0.357" on every case that I checked (at least 25+).

That would be the inside diameter of the fired case neck, not the outside. Remove any vestige of the old crimp before measureing. Take a caliper and place it in the fired case mouth. You should be able to turn it without grabbing, but it will scrape at the point you take the reading.

[Mauser Rat]

45 2.1,

The 0.357" is the measured outside diameter of the throat of the spent cases from my M48A; which should be the dimension of the chamber at the neck if I am thinking of this correctly. Then subtract twice the thickness of the brass at the case mouth, which is approximately 0.015" (measured) thick each side, to get 0.327" calculated. I then used digital calipers to measure the same dimension on about 15 more pieces of spent brass. I measured the same 0.327" inside of the mouth of the spent brass after removing any vestige of the crimp as well as I could.

This all came to me in the middle of the night last night after I had been chewing on some information that Bruce had emailed me as well. I think that I, finally, understand at least a few of the mysteries of the chamber/throat/rifling intersection as well as the dynamic of what happens to the boolit from ignition of the primer through the boolit entering the rifling thanks to you and Bruce.

My conclusion is that my M48A does not have the "loose" throat that I had been worried about. I also think, from the 3.22" OAL that I got from slugging the throat of the M48A (and confirmed through use of Forster Headspace gages) and the dimensions of the Karabiner and Maximum, that I should not have any trouble chambering and firing both of those boolits after sizing them down to 0.323".

The one thing that I have to watch is the "tight" spot I located when I slugged the entire barrel. The tight spot goes from the crown down about the first 4 or so inches of the barrel and then the slug simply falls the rest of the way to the breech. The slug measures 0.322" as opposed to the spec 0.323" bore. From what I have read, this can be a good thing and increase accuracy if it does not impede the boolit too much: which it should not at 0.322 inches.

I think that the tight dimensions confirms Mitchell's Mausers claims that this rifle has never seen regular duty and was, basically, new when I purchased it in 1998 even though it was manufactured in 1946. This is consistent with the matching serial numbers on the principle parts of the rifle and the general appearance of the rifle.

I am constantly amazed at how much individuals here and at Cast Boolits are willing to invest their time and knowledge to help individuals whom they have never met and have nothing to gain from. It says a lot about the community that frequents these venues and I thank you and Bruce a LOT for your help on this issue. I hope that posting all of this information will help others in their efforts to safely determine whether a new boolit design is suitable for use in their own weapons: as I have seen you try to warn others at Cast Boolits.

To the other folks out there shooting 8mm's.....

NOW ARE ANY OF YOU OTHERS INTERESTED IN A GROUP BUY OF THE KARABINER AND MAXIMUM BOOLIT MOLDS CUT CORRECTLY SO THAT THEY WILL CHAMBER AND SHOOT WITHOUT TROUBLE?

There is a discussion of a boolit (the Cruise Missile) on Cast Boolits that will not chamber in some rifles because the molds are cut too large. The boolit was designed correctly. The specs for the boolit were given to the mold producer correctly. But the molds were cut oversized and will not chamber in some rifles in which they would chamber if the molds did not produce oversized boolits. Imagine how disappointed you would be if you received a mold that you had checked out and determined the boolit would chamber in your weapon but when you got the mold you could not cast anything that would chamber in your rifle/handgun?

I am not affiliated with either 45 2.1 or Bruce at BRP Products and have nothing to gain from this except two good looking boolits to feed my M48A. Bruce, at BRP, will not cut a mold so large that what it casts can not be chambered. 45 2.1 won't design a boolit like that or work with a machinist who will cut it oversized. They both have spent a rediculous amount of time with me teaching me about my own rifle for no reason except to help. That is the kind of person that I put my trust in when it comes time to part with money.

[45 2.1]

The 0.357" is the measured outside diameter of the throat of the spent cases from my M48A; which should be the dimension of the chamber at the neck if I am thinking of this correctly. Then subtract twice the thickness of the brass at the case mouth, which is approximately 0.015" (measured) thick each side, to get 0.327" calculated. I then used digital calipers to measure the same dimension on about 15 more pieces of spent brass. I measured the same 0.327" inside of the mouth of the spent brass after removing any vestige of the crimp as well as I could. Now you have it.

My conclusion is that my M48A does not have the "loose" throat that I had been worried about. I also think, from the 3.22" OAL that I got from slugging the throat of the M48A (and confirmed through use of Forster Headspace gages) and the dimensions of the Karabiner and Maximum, that I should not have any trouble chambering and firing both of those boolits after sizing them down to 0.323". It has a normal throat. The excersize with determining the inside fired neck diameter is to tell you what size to size your bullet.... and that would be about 0.0005" under what you measured... or about 0.3265"

I am constantly amazed at how much individuals here and at Cast Boolits are willing to invest their time and knowledge to help individuals whom they have never met and have nothing to gain from. It says a lot about the community that frequents these venues and I thank you and Bruce a LOT for your help on this issue. I hope that posting all of this information will help others in their efforts to safely determine whether a new boolit design is suitable for use in their own weapons: as I have seen you try to warn others at Cast Boolits. Be carefull who you take advice from there, some have their own agenda to make them look good. Anyone who tells you you can't do something is passing along "Old Wives Tales".

There is a discussion of a boolit (the Cruise Missile) on Cast Boolits that will not chamber in some rifles because the molds are cut too large. The boolit was designed correctly. The specs for the boolit were given to the mold producer correctly. But the molds were cut oversized and will not chamber in some rifles in which they would chamber if the molds did not produce oversized boolits. Imagine how disappointed you would be if you received a mold that you had checked out and determined the boolit would chamber in your weapon but when you got the mold you could not cast anything that would chamber in your rifle/handgun? Happens quite a bit when Lee cuts the mold it seems.

I am not affiliated with either 45 2.1 or Bruce at BRP Products and have nothing to gain from this except two good looking boolits to feed my M48A. Bruce, at BRP, will not cut a mold so large that what it casts can not be chambered. 45 2.1 won't design a boolit like that or work with a machinist who will cut it oversized. They both have spent a rediculous amount of time with me teaching me about my own rifle for no reason except to help. That is the kind of person that I put my trust in when it comes time to part with money. Thanks for the plug."

[45 2.1]

Maybe this option would be better:

[Mauser Rat]

I like the RN a lot 45 2.1. I think that, just like in every one of these discussions that I have seen over at Castboolits, that some will like the FN better and some the RN.

So, I guess it will be decided by a vote! Or maybe that 4 cavity now has 2 Max. and 1 FN and 1 RN Karabiner? But I think that will take more than 15.

We have maybe 7 or so between the two sites (Castboolits and here) that have expressed interest. Halfway there. My vote is to get the remaining 8mm shooters who want one or both of these together to make the 15 and place an order with Bruce!

+1 for the RN Kara

+1 for the Max