silly 1911 question

[rmocarsky]

Gunners,

This may be a silly question, but I have read from time to time on this site that continually chambering the same round into a 1911 (or any semi-auto) and unloading it (for whatever reason) and rechambering the SAME round can damage the round.


Say it is bedtime:


What if one were to lock back the slide, drop a round in the chamber, gently return the slide to battery, engage the safety and then insert a magazine?

To my way of thinking, this should not damage the manually chambered round.


Then in the morning:

Remove the magazine, eject the round by racking the slide and render the pistol totally unloaded; wouldn't this remedy the problem of damage occurring to the round when it is chambered by the action of the firearm?

It is a little late at night, and maybe when I am well-rested and I read this, I will blush and consider changing my user-name.

Rmocarsky

[LaserSpot]

You wouldn't have bullet setback, but you could eventually damage the rim of the case or the extractor.

Here's a couple other solutions:
1. Using a sharpie, mark each bullet right at the case mouth. If any of the sharpie marks start sliding into the case, set that round aside for disassembly and disposal

2. Don't unload the gun every day. Leave the gun loaded all the time is safer than unloading it every morning.

[Chindo18Z]

...I have read from time to time on this site that continually chambering the same round into a 1911 (or any semi-auto) and unloading it (for whatever reason) and rechambering the SAME round can damage the round

Yes, repeatedly chambering the same round can cause the round to be eventually damaged to the point it is unsafe to fire. It doesn't happen to all rounds, all the time...but it does happen.

The problem is called bullet setback. A bullet, factory seated into the mouth of the case, is eventually driven deeper into the cartridge case by repeated cycling, reducing internal case volume and compressing the powder. This compression of the available cartridge interior volume can cause dangerous overpressure when the round is fired (i.e., a Kaboom).

What if one were to lock back the slide, drop a round in the chamber, gently return the slide to battery, engage the safety and then insert a magazine?

Hand feeding the first round is not supposed to be good for extractors on some weapons (a completely different problem involving eventual loss of proper extractor tension or even extractor breakage). Seating the first round in the chamber by hand causes the extractor hook to violently bend as it is forced to ride over an already seated cartridge rim. In a normal firing cycle, the extractor has already grabbed the rim of the cas before the round is seated in the chamber. This occurs outside of the chamber and puts less tension on the extractor. In comparative terms, sort of like smoothly snatching a perfect spiraling football out of the air (what the extractor normally does) compared to absorbing a hard driven bullet pass on your sternum (what you make the extractor do if you force it to ride over an already chambered rim).

On the other hand, out of sheer ignorance, I hand fed the top round for many years without apparent issue. My 1911s never broke an extractor due to the procedure. It depends on the make / model of weapon (and the quality of that extractor). These days, to be safe and save wear and tear on the extractor, I simply load the first round from the magazine, then remove the magazine and top it off with another round.

I have had three or four .45 ACP rounds exhibit setback over the last eight months of daily carrying a 1911A1 downrange. This due to an inane requirement to clear loaded weapons upon entry to certain military facilities. I typically have to clear and then reload my pistol a couple of time per day.
I usually cycle through the same first round for a week or two, then rotate it out of my carry magazines. I simply visually check for setback on that first round every time I load the weapon with a previously cycled round. I've got a couple of offending rounds set aside and will try to post some pictures in a few weeks (I'm currently on leave back in the US).

Bullet setback is visually obvious, even to the untrained eye. The bullet will appear to be rammed back into the interior depth of the brass case (1/8 to 1/2 inch) and the entire cartridge is noticeably shorter in overall length compared to a new one. Normal Mark I eye-ball inspection will detect this condition. It's not something you need to measure with calipers or a ruler. You can look at the cartridge and see the noticeable difference.
"Hmmm...Which one of these does not look like the other ones?"

There is no hard and fast rule for how often to rotate your first round or even as to when a round might develop bullet setback. I've seen a round get grossly setback after only three or four chamberings. I've seen others go for weeks of multiple chamberings. Best to just routinely check each time prior to re-chamber. Better still to periodically recycle the old primary round into your next range ammo and replace with a brand new first round.

I simply compare my first round for over-all length against another round each time I load. Line up the cartridge in question alongside another new cartridge. The second bullet can simply be the next one sitting in your magazine. If one bullet is noticeably shorter than the other, simply discard/dispose of the newly declared bad cartridge. It's not worth the price of a thirty cent round to risk damage to weapon, hand, and eyes by firing it.

BTW, you can simply grasp the offending deep seated bullet with a leatherman or set of pliers, while grasping the brass case with another set of pliers, bend the bullet back and forth, then twist in opposite directions, and remove the bullet from out of the case. Dump the powder (into the sink, toilet, great outdoors, etc.). If you feel uncomfortable tossing a still primed case into the trash, just fire that case (no bullet or powder) at your next range session.

Another problem caused by repeatedly chambering / unchambering the same round is one of damaging the rim of the brass case. Softer brass rims will begin to show "dings" and deformation caused by repeated engagement by the extractor and ejector during cycling. If the rim starts to look "chewed up", remove it from your duty magazine load, and fire it at your next range session, replacing it with a fresh cartridge.

Hope this helps.

[Amin Parker]

Changing the round every few months is cheaper and much less stressful than replacing your extractor.

[Kreyzhorse]

This may be a silly question, but I have read from time to time on this site that continually chambering the same round into a 1911 (or any semi-auto) and unloading it (for whatever reason) and rechambering the SAME round can damage the round.

Why not just rotate or replace the round and or leave the gun loaded?

[Uncle Malice]

Don't drop the slide onto a round that you drop into the chamber with it open. This is how you break your extractor.

[dogngun]

FWIW, I leave my 1911's loaded and cocked and locked for months at a time, leave mags loaded for over 6 months, never had any malfunctions because of that...I use 7 round USGI mags or older Colt mags ONLY, and have found no reason to change.

mark

[drail]

If your factory loaded rounds set back upon multiple chamberings they have a serious manufacturing defect (becoming very common nowdays). I would contact the manufacturer and complain loudly, though it may not do any good because they don't really seem to care about quality anymore. This is the main reason I stopped buying and using any factory ammo years ago. I will only trust my own reloads (using only new components) for serious use. It is very easy to load rounds that will not setback no matter how many times they are rechambered. It is really a shame that the ammo companies don't seem to believe that setback is a problem (it is, though if you have enough lawyers I suppose you don't lose any sleep over it) and also that so many people for various reasons need to keep unloading and reloading their guns several times a day. It didn't used to be this way.

[cougar gt-e]

As others have stated, bullet setback can and does occur. I disagree that it is a "defect", it's just a matter of physics. Hammer on the bullet by repeated chambering or even just loading it into the magazine and it will eventually move a noticeable amount. It's not an immovable object.

Again, as others have stated -- don't manually load a round. Read the instruction manual -- odds are 10:1 it will say to not do that as it can harm the extractor.

If you are unloading at home, is it because you have small children or a spouse / roommate that doesn't like the thought of a loaded gun around? Why not leave it loaded, but put it in a small safe? A good way to spend 80-100 bucks. Out of sight, out of mind, out of reach of little hands and yet still quickly accessible.

[FoxtrotRomeo]

If you gently return the slide to battery there will be a chance that the slide is not properly forward.

I have a round with set back. Seen it, done it, will not fire it. As a result, I have no idea how to properly dispose of it because it's a live round that can not be conventionally discharged without fear of too much pressure build up.

With a 1911 you really are better off stripping the round off of a mag and adding another round to the mag.

[Uncle Malice]

I have no idea how to properly dispose of it because it's a live round that can not be conventionally discharged without fear of too much pressure build up

Take it out to the middle of nowhere and shoot the primer with a BB gun.

[brickeyee]

I have a round with set back. Seen it, done it, will not fire it. As a result, I have no idea how to properly dispose of it...

Pull the bullet, dump the powder, fire the primer.

[FoxtrotRomeo]

Pull the bullet, dump the powder, fire the primer.

I'll have to do that. I'm tempted to take a picture and post it here so that inexperienced shooters know what one looks like when they see it.

[ClydeFrog]

This posted topic is interesting. I never considered it before but could see how that can occur.
In general, I'd store a home protection handgun(pistol) condition III(loaded pistol magazine, empty chamber, safety: ON/if it applys).

That to me is a safe, secure way to store a semi auto pistol.

[OJ]

Factory loaded ammo probably don't have a problem but, my solution is, in my weekly range shooting, I fire the chambered round in my carry gun - loading the top round in the mag.

Remove mag and replace it with a mag full of range ammo and continue shooting. That way, the two rounds the get chambered a number of times during dry fire sessions are fired every week and replaced with fresh ones -

Works for me -

[Eagle0711]

I would NOT shoot a cartrige where the bullet gets driven deeper into the case, because it will drive pressures up. Could even blow the gun up. They call these Kabooms nowdays.

[dcody40]

Hey Guys and Gals, in the reloading hobby, we make oopses sometimes and several companies make a solution, it's called a kinetic hammer, (bullet puller) made out of high impact plastic, it clamps and holds the case head, and you just hit a solid surface, and out pop's the round and powder, this is much safer than the BB solution lol !, also you don't have to toss the primered brass, just hand them off to a reloader, we can use them or even fix them if you have a bunch, and the problem is resolved. I don't have that problem with setback, but sometimes I'll seat a bullet too deep and have to fix it. Oh and these hammers can be purchased for less than 20$ at Basspro shops, or any of the sporting goods shops that carry reloading supplies. And they have a fantastic warranty, I think the RCBS is lifetime. Be safe and don't do a dummy by messing around with a loaded round with the wrong tools. Yes you can use pliers but this will mess up the bullet and also the brass. Now for the powder issue, it's fertilizer so just toss it in your grass, and you will never ever see it again, or just pile it someplace safe and burn it, it won't explode, it just burns real fast.
Stay safe and don't blow any fingers off ok !

Duane USN/ret
Reloading with Blue/green/orange/red stuff..

[FoxtrotRomeo]

I'll have to get one of those. Thanks dcody40.

[drail]

Cougae gt e, bullet setback is not inevitable. For almost 15 years while building 1911s for competition use I had a small box of dummy hardball rounds on my bench that I would use repeatedly to test feed and ejection problems on customer's guns. These rounds were cycled in and out of guns literally hundreds of times over the years. Guess what? They have never setback one thous. of an inch. I still have them. The reason factory ammo sets back is because they are not controlling the dimensions of the case mouth carefully enough to maintain neck tension on the bullet. They are being overexpanded during the loading process. It's that simple. The other night I was working on a feed problem on my wife's 1911 and I ran some of my handloads through the gun as fast as I could hand cycle the slide. They literally came out in a stream. I did this about 5 times fast. I grabbed the calipers and measured them. No setback. Setback is poor quality control. This is not my opinion. It is a fact. If someone sells you ammo and it sets back after one or two chamberings, it is defective. I would demand a refund.

[dcody40]

Ok Guys and Gals, the real trick to the correctly setup round is the crimp, this in itself is a much talked about subject, so many different idea's and theories, but the basics are this, if the case is crimped properly then you won't or shouldn't have any problems, I also have built up from new frames and slides, many 1911 model guns, and always test them with my tried and true reloads, that's all I shoot anymore, without going into the reloading area, a different section in this forum, the crimp or missing crimp is the problem. I had to unload and reload all the time while in the military also, never had that issue with Gov ammo, Yes the rounds would get scratches and scars if you used the same round all the time, but the simple solution already mentioned above is to rotate your rounds, we had to have clean guns at all times unless we were boonie stomping, then we'd clean them when we had the time every night and this includes the mags, we'd pull the followers and springs and clean these puppies real good also. And this would be where we'd reload the mags with the same rounds and not have a problem, as the messed up case would shoot just fine. So for you shooters who assume the rounds are defective, it would be an easy fix for any reloader to run the rounds through a crimper die and solve the issue.
Hope you all can learn something new today, enjoy and feel free to shoot questions at me, I enjoy it and am glad to maybe send another one of you towards the reloading scene so you too can learn some more about the hobby we all enjoy.

Regards

Duane USN/ret

[James K]

Some time back, I ran some limited tests with 9mm on "bullet setback" and concluded that if there was any effect at all, it was very minor. Even with bullets pushed completely back onto the powder, there were no signs of excessive pressure. And in most auto pistol cartridge cases, pushing the bullet back that far takes a lot of force (I used a vise) and will bulge the case enough to prevent chambering.

Now, I didn't test every possible factory load, or every possible handload, or every possible caliber in every possible gun, but I did conclude that the "bullet setback" problem does not exist and that most of what has been written about it is nonsense.

As always, I am willing to be corrected. If Chindo or others HAVE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED A BLOW UP CAUSED BY BULLET SETBACK and all other possibilities have been ruled out, I will certainly be interested. But I am not interested in myths or rumors; I have read quite enough of those "friend of a friend of a cousin of someone" tales.

Jim

[OJ]

Some years ago I was shooting my Glock 23 at a local indoor range and bought some ammo from them marked "Factory Reloaded". I was aware of Glock's prohibition of "reloads" but figured stuff marked "Factory Reloads" made it different.

WRONG

The last round in the magazine went off with a huge BANG - spraying my face with stuff (glad I use eye protection) - blew the magazine out of the gun, and fractured several internal pins and a spring.

Turns out most anyone can claim to be a factory for such purposes - there was no doubt there was excess pressure probably due to some setback incurred in chambering that round.

The guy behind the counter denied any blame and advised I should clean my gun more often - I never went back there and they eventually went broke and closed.

[FoxtrotRomeo]

Now, I didn't test every possible factory load, or every possible handload, or every possible caliber in every possible gun, but I did conclude that the "bullet setback" problem does not exist and that most of what has been written about it is nonsense.

For future reference for you and new firearms owners everywhere.

.45 ACP Winchester USA JHP 230 grain (Has not been altered in anyway.)

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...t=DSCF5034.jpg

Normal factory round on the right. Setback on the left. Setback caused by repeated chambering for JHP compatibility, came out of the factory and box perfectly normal. It's tarnished because when I noticed, it has been separated from normal rounds for safety.

[If you're wondering, that's a stuffed Stewie Griffin I won at Dave n Busters. The other is a stuffed Coca Cola polar bear.]

So yeah setback is as real as it gets.

[Mello2u]

rmocarsky

silly 1911 question
Gunners,

This may be a silly question, but I have read from time to time on this site that continually chambering the same round into a 1911 (or any semi-auto) and unloading it (for whatever reason) and rechambering the SAME round can damage the round.

Say it is bedtime:

What if one were to lock back the slide, drop a round in the chamber, gently return the slide to battery, engage the safety and then insert a magazine?

To my way of thinking, this should not damage the manually chambered round.

Then in the morning:

Remove the magazine, eject the round by racking the slide and render the pistol totally unloaded; wouldn't this remedy the problem of damage occurring to the round when it is chambered by the action of the firearm?

The issue of "setback" has been covered.

My question is why do you feel the need to constantly load and unload a 1911?

I assume that you have some place to secure your firearm when it is not on your person.

There is a process called the "press check" which can be used to visually determine whether your 1911 is loaded without chambering or unchambering a cartridge.

Remember to observe the safety rules:

Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Assuming you are right handed and
1) holding your loaded 1911 in your right hand (right index/trigger finger off the trigger),
2) you point the weapon in a safe direction,
3) disengage the thumb safety,
4) place the thumb of your left had in front of the trigger guard (without touching the trigger) and your left hand index finger on the recoil spring plug (below the muzzle), and
5) squeeze your left index finger and thumb together so that the slide opens about 3/8" to 1/2".
6) You can now look into the slide port to visually determine whether a cartridge is chambered.

[Chindo18Z]

Jim Keenan: I've never experienced a kaboom. I don't load visibly deformed, damaged, or out of spec ammo into my weapons. I don't shoot unknown handloads. I stay within recommended cartridge pressures using loads designed and measured to function in the weapon at hand.

rmocarsky: I've never really worried too much about the whole situation. When I've encountered the occasional setback .45 ACP, I've simply removed it from service. I've been doing that for 35 years of 1911 use. If you load and unload your .45 multiple times daily for a year, you might wind up tossing out a whole $4 worth of retired ammo.

Setback is a known, documented, and not uncommon occurrence across a great many platforms and calibers. The question is whether or not setback rounds are safe to use.

Jim Keenan says no problem...it's all nonsense.

I say that such rounds develop excessive pressure and don't belong in your weapon.

So there you have it. Opposite ends of the opinion spectrum. It's the internet...a gathering of myths and rumors.