Church--Carry or no carry?

[mk86fcc]

That night, Jesus was holding a prayer vigil like nothing we have ever seen. That was about as holy a moment as we would ever witness. And yet he did not tell anyone to leave their sword at home.

Hadn't thought about that before - excellent point.

[Mr. James]

http://www.utahshootingsports.com/ar...hincidents.htm

http://www.ggnra.org/newsletters/2000/sep/page6.shtml

Trapped in his bedroom, just beyond the study, the priest quietly unlocked his gun kit and took out a 9mm pistol. He flipped on a light and ordered the stranger to freeze and lie on the floor. The man stopped, then reached for his belt and charged. Duesterhaus fired. The man paused, apparently wounded, then ran into the hall. Total time elapsed: 15 seconds.

The outcome of this 1993 incident contrasts sharply with last month's brutal slaying of an unarmed Germantown priest, Monsignor Thomas Wells, during an apparent burglary overnight. And such attacks, although infrequent, have generated an unusual, chilling dialogue about whether priests and other clergy--as models of compassion and love--are justified in using violence for self-defense.

The idea of a priest or bishop owning a handgun shocks many Catholics. But some do, whether for hunting, target practice or self-defense, and church law allows it. But theologians and ethicists differ on whether priests should ever point a weapon at another person--and fire.

Duesterhaus, then 28, shot at the intruder, and he and three other priests living in the Holy Spirit rectory were unharmed. Wells, 56, who stayed alone in the rectory at Mother Seton Catholic Church, died after being stabbed repeatedly in a violent struggle.

Would the outcome have been different if Wells had owned a handgun? John M. Snyder, 60, a Catholic layman and chief lobbyist for the Washington-based Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, believes so. On June 9, the day after Wells's body was found, Snyder released a statement saying Wells "most likely would be alive today if he'd had a loaded handgun and knew how to use it."

The Rev. Aaron Joseph Coty, administrator of Mother Seton parish, finds abhorrent the idea that priests--or anyone, for that matter--own handguns. "You don't need weapons to defend yourself," he said. "There are other ways. You can talk with the person, reason with the person, get into a fistfight."

But the Rev. Robert J. Rippy, chancellor of the Diocese of Arlington, has a different view. "A priest, like any other citizen, has a right to self-preservation," he told the Arlington Catholic Herald after the Duesterhaus incident. "A person has a right to preserve their life from an unjust aggressor

[mk86fcc]

The Rev. Aaron Joseph Coty, administrator of Mother Seton parish, finds abhorrent the idea that priests--or anyone, for that matter--own handguns. "You don't need weapons to defend yourself," he said. "There are other ways. You can talk with the person, reason with the person, get into a fistfight."

Dear Lord, save me from well-meaning "men of the cloth." OK, I'm a small man - 5'4", 130#, without a lot of unarmed combat training/experience - why yes, I do need weapons to defend myself - at least to do so effectively (keeping in mind that mindset is my number one tool). A person who has already decided to take from me/mine by force is generally not that receptive to pleasant or reasoned discussion but, if I have a weapon they might be somewhat more inclined to listen to what I have to say. But the real kicker here is the "get into a fistfight" - force is force, violence is violence - if it's OK for me to resist at all, then by extension it's OK for me to utilize whatever tools may make that job easier.

[Vic303]

Once our church no longer meets in a school (in TX they're off limits even on Sunday), my husband & I will both carry in church, provided the new church building isn't posted 30-06 and I doubt it will be. I think enough folks remember the in-church massacre where some BG just wandered in and shot the place up during worship, a few years back in Ft Worth.

[El Vato]

Though this doesn't directly address the issue of carrying in a church, with the current situation suffice it to say that I do carry in my synagogue. None of my co-congregants know, and I doubt that many would approve, but with the reality of Islamic terrorism, I do carry, particularly on major holidays.

[PATH]

No one has to know you are carrying. Given the way the world is today I think it a prudent thing to do.

[Dave_S.]

No one has to know you are carrying. Given the way the world is today I think it a prudent thing to do.

FWIW, considering I'm new here, I absolutely agree.

[Dwight55]

In Ohio it is illegal to carry in a church (and a whole bunch of other places defined by the legislature) in one section of the statute. In another section there is apparently permission for the congregation to decide for itself if it wants to allow ccw.
May God bless,
Dwight

[SARDUDE]

What a great thread!
I personally agree with many on the idea; If a BG followed the rules to start with, I wouldn't need to carry in church. Which I do every week!

[Quartus]

FWIW, considering I'm new here, I absolutely agree.

Dave, it's worth as much as the opinion of those who have been here longer.



Now, how much that is worth is an open question.



Anyway, welcome aboard!

[dadavis]

Sounds like you all pretty much summed up what I was thinking

[dev_null]

So much for turning the other cheek. (teasing)

Serious question: would you carry in a Quaker Meetinghouse or JW Kingdom Hall (keeping in mind these are religious pacifist groups)?

In VA, the law says I can only CCW in a place of worship "for good reason" -- but doesn't spell out what a good reason is. The doublebind there is that it's left to me to interpret whether or not to carry, but up to a prosecutor and judge or jury to decide whether I guessed correctly or not.

[Quartus]

Serious question: would you carry in a Quaker Meetinghouse or JW Kingdom Hall (keeping in mind these are religious pacifist groups)?

Serious answer - No. I respect private property rights. They are every bit as important to liberty as the RKBA.


So, I exercise my freedom not to go there! I know somebody will say "Those institutions (and businesses that forbid carry) are infringing on MY rights. "

Wrong. They are exercising THEIRS. Unless you are COMPELLED to go to that business, your rights have not been touched.

[Red_SC]

Okay, not trying to get off topic, but this has gotten me thinking. My CWP should be coming in the mail any time, and I plan on carrying a small .38 revolver IWB. I also teach childrens church, and the kids often hug me. How can I avoid them hitting and noticing that lump on my waist? I don't know that I'd be comfortable with an ankle holster, but I may have to give it a try.

[Quartus]

Smartcarry, maybe?

[mk86fcc]

How can I avoid them hitting and noticing that lump on my waist?

Well, if it's on the order of a J-frame a pocket holster would do nicely...

[Any .45]

" A Samuria is never without his sword, for a Samurai's sword is part of his soul, If a Samurai leaves his sword he has left a part of his soul."

I agree, I never leave home without it, my .45 kimber sword goes everywhere I go.

[Pale Rider]

My NRA certified handgun course, (required by the state of Ohio for CCW :barf: ) . There were 10 people from a local church, including the pastor. Dont mess around in that chapel on sundays!

[michael t]

Carried before and would carry again I carry something everywere I go or I don t go Makes wife very unhappy sometimes.

[geegee]

I also teach childrens church, and the kids often hug me. How can I avoid them hitting and noticing that lump on my waist? I don't know that I'd be comfortable with an ankle holster, but I may have to give it a try.

Been there, done that, Brother! May I suggest something on the order of a Lou Alessi pocket pocket (like the one my Kel Tec sits in). This will work nicely for those moments when a 1911 may dent the forehead of a little one (yours or someone else's) trying to give you a hug.

http://www.rfholsters.com/rfholsters...f%5Fid=AH%2DPH