Why 18.5 inch 4570 guide gun

[Dano4734]

I am sure people asked this a million times but my 22 inch 4570 is 3.5
Inches longer yet for me has a better sight profile. What am I missing. It can’t be weight for 3.5 inches more . Please explain as I am trying to learn. I doubt the small difference in length helps accuracy in either case but 22 inches seems more balanced

[Dano4734]

Just came back from Alaska fishing reds with my kid my daughter out fished me again. Had a brown bear sneak up behind me about 20 yards. He could care less about me went straight for the salmon. Had my 454 cashull but just walked away slowly. I guess I was not on the menu. Going to try again for moose this year but I want to go old school with the 4570. Any suggestions on ammo . By the way I cannot believe how something the size of a brown bear can be so quiet. You guy and girls who live there like my daughter does amaze me with your skills

[Buzzcook]

In theory the shorter barrel is better for emergency snap shots at dangerous game.

.45-70 unless its a cowboy load should be fine for moose from 350gr on up. Many people here like hardcast lead for dangerous game out of a 45-70. I tend to think some of the older style cup and ball rounds will do ok. Check the usual suspects and pick the most accurate.

[bamaranger]

As a general rule, shorter (and just a bit) lighter rifles are typically thought of as being more handy and portable. I've never been to Alaska, nor professionally guided anybody.....but a "guide" has a lot of responsibilities beyond putting the client on game. Handling down game, horses, ATV, maybe camp and meals, lots of stuff. A guide is typically armed to back a client on dangerous game, or to finish cripples, so guides need guns, but a guide gun is often thought to be powerful, and portable.....loosely speaking anyhow.

I would likely shoot an iron sighted 22" barreled rifle better than one with a shorter tube......my eyes don't do short barrels and iron sights so well. But some type of optic solves that. Appeal from one rifle to another is sometimes an individual thing, some like short barrels others longer.

Remember that Marlin named their short lever big bore "guide gun" (as did Remington on a bolt rifle a while back) but whether or not guides use it is another matter. I saw a TV show where an Alaska Trooper pulled one out of this trunk in bear country. Anybody who has to tote a firearm very far is likely to look at a shorter, lighter set up......heck, look at the near universal adoption of the M4 carbine by the military. Anyone using a firearm in close quarters or extreme thick cover will benefit from shorter and lighter too. In my own experience, when the pump shotgun was the only patrol long gun available to me, there was a lot of difference in in just 2 inches of barrel length, from 20" to 18", in deploying a pump shotgun from the racks of patrol vehicles.

[Dano4734]

Thank you that makes sense. At 65 now the little longer barrel works better for me but I suspect when I was younger it was not any issue

[DPris]

I bought my Guide Gun because I wanted a shorter package for the ATV.
It rides in a double scabbard under the roof, next to a 14-inch 870 shotgun.
Both are there to be grabbed & swung inside the rollcage if needed.
Longer barrels get in the way.
Denis

[agtman]

As a general rule, shorter (and just a bit) lighter rifles are typically thought of as being more handy and portable. I've never been to Alaska, nor professionally guided anybody.....but a "guide" has a lot of responsibilities beyond putting the client on game. Handling down game, horses, ATV, maybe camp and meals, lots of stuff. A guide is typically armed to back a client on dangerous game, or to finish cripples, so guides need guns, but a guide gun is often thought to be powerful, and portable * * *

I agree.

Whether you call them "short rifles," "guide guns," "bush guns," or "brush carbines," the idea is a fast-handling compact weapon with a powerful chambering that will hold its own at short ranges in the rough-n-tumble boonies against big 4-legged predators with claws and teeth, such as the O.P. describes in his brown bear encounter.

Arguably that's a 'niche' use, but rifles are like golf clubs and you select the one from the bag that's going to be the most useful for the shot, given the lay of the land you find yourself in.

For example, the "shorter, lighter-weight, and more portable" design-theory led Remington to create the 18.5" Model 600, chambered for the .350 Rem. Magnum. The .350 RM roughly mimics the ballistics of the .35 Whelen but in a shorter action.

That package, or something close to it, is what I'd take up to AK today, and keep it near me while fishing off a river bank for salmon.

If you can learn to manage the recoil of a compact magnum and get to shooting it off-hand with reasonable accuracy out to 100-yds, you've got about the perfect set-up for portability and protection in Rough Country where bears, cougars, moose, and other such critters roam.

[fourbore]

There is no magic length. I do like the balance and pointing of the 22" barrel with 1/2 magazine. The rubber recoil pad and pistol grip are critical or key features. I might be tempted to try a 20" barrel if I had to start over and it was an option. I think 18.5 is a little too much of a good thing. That seems to be a common problem with many guns. If X is good then 2X is better or in this case x/2. I would not want ANY barrel with a brake or porting. There is no excuse for that ear busting garbage on a 45/70. Any hunting gun for that matter.

[agtman]

There is no magic length. I do like the balance and pointing of the 22" barrel with 1/2 magazine. The rubber recoil pad and pistol grip are critical or key features. I might be tempted to try a 20" barrel if I had to start over and it was an option. I think 18.5 is a little too much of a good thing. That seems to be a common problem with many guns. If X is good then 2X is better or in this case x/2.

If you think 18.5" is a little too much goodness, try a 16.1" Mini-G chambered in .35 Whelen. I know a guy who's got one and hunts deer and hogs with it. Uses the same 5-rd 'hunting' clips as others use for the '06 or .308 Garands. He's zero-ed it to hit about 2-inches high at 100-yds and says it's good to go from point-blank range to 200yds. He handloads the 225gn & 250gn .35 bullets for it.

I would not want ANY barrel with a brake or porting. There is no excuse for that ear busting garbage on a 45/70. Any hunting gun for that matter.

Yeah, I hear you on the brakes. Not for me either on a hunting arm.

[bamaranger]

At risk of sidetracking the thread, I did know several guys that "Rangered" in Alaska in very wild fish and bear country. They all kept stubby pump shotguns, with Brenneke slugs, close at hand. The Rangers that stood bear security for folks cleaning up oil spill wildlife also were issued 12ga pumps with Brenneke's as well.

[Dano4734]

Like you I have nothing ported I just never felt the need to

[Drm50]

I've had a 1895 Marlin for 40+ years. I got it on a trade with less than a box
thru it. I have a nice selection of deer rifles and only reason I kept 1895 was
because it is the most accurate 45/70 I've ever owned, one of those cherries
you keep. I never hunted it until Ohio passed rifle deer season. I shoot Hornady
300jhp/ IMR-3031.

The Guide Guns are the big sellers in this area. All the young guys go for big
loop, looks,ect. 45/70 is to much gun for Whitetails. If I was buying a rifle to
Deer hunt here in Ohio a 44 carbine would be high on list. The guys buying new
Remlin Guide Guns might as well kept their slug guns.

[Jack O'Conner]

My Mossberg 464 carbine has a 16 inch barrel, built this way at the factory. Its my favorite for hunting wild hogs because its just so handy.

Jack

[Dano4734]

I would love to hunt hogs we don’t have them. Someday i will

[PlatinumCore16]

Originally Posted by Dano4734

I would love to hunt hogs we don’t have them. Someday i will

As in someday you will have hogs to hunt or someday you will hunt hogs? Because I'm pretty sure the way things are going, that first part is probably true. You definitely control that second part, but I'm sure that those who live in an area with wild hogs will tell you, you can't kill enough of them, so they will be around for a while until you get there. Or until they get to you.

As to your original question, I agree that I think it's one of those things that manufacturers jump on the bandwagon when their crystal balls tell them they can make a profit off of it. 18.5 vs 20, and probably even 22 (though I don't have experience there) isn't enough of a difference to matter for most applications and people. I think it becomes more of a difference in balance of the overall rifle/firearm between manufacturers/styles, but I don't think most people have handled the same gun in both 18.5in bbl and 20in bbl to be able to compare them side-by-side.

*Note: the above statement is in reference to this question only. Handloading, AR tuning, long range rifle work, is all something completely different and I'm not trying to debate bbl length vs other factors.

[GarrettJ]

Originally Posted by Drm50

45/70 is to much gun for Whitetails.

I see comments like this, but nobody bats an eye when people suggest blasting a whitetail with a .72 caliber slug at 1700 fps.

[Drm50]

We didn't use slugs because we wanted to, it was law. The 45/70 is more accurate than slugs and I would rather use it than slugs. If a eastern deer hunter
has his choice of calibres not to many would be buying 45/70s. We would be
tickled to death if we were allowed 30/30 -35rem class rifles. There is nothing
wrong with 45/70s, I got one. I hunted out of state rifle season since I was a kid. Hunting with slugs is just not the same as a rifle. Ohio allowed rifled slug
guns & sabots and in line Muzzel loaders using shotgun primers & smokeless
powder. You can use any straight case cartridge, minimum 38 cal. All this caliber
stuff is suppose to premote safety due to population density. Seeing that Ohio
is 75% flat lands I can see why hi-vel rifles are not legal. By the same token
I don't want to use a buffalo rifle to shoot a White Tail deer.

My self the 38/55 or 375w are the best choice and plenty of power for deer. I
am shooting a #3 Ruger in 375W with spitzer bullets. I will be able to take
shoots that before I would just watch the deer. I have a 1894 44 mag too. It
will kill deer too but it has a limited practical range. If Ohio goes to 30/30 class
guns my 45/70-44mg-375W will go down the road. The moral of the story is
any rifle is better than a shotgun slug.

[agtman]

Ohio allowed rifled slug guns & sabots and in line Muzzel loaders using shotgun primers & smokeless powder. You can use any straight case cartridge, minimum 38 cal. All this caliber stuff is suppose to premote safety due to population density. Seeing that Ohio is 75% flat lands I can see why hi-vel rifles are not legal. By the same token I don't want to use a buffalo rifle to shoot a White Tail deer. * * * If Ohio goes to 30/30 class guns my 45/70-44mg-375W will go down the road. The moral of the story is any rifle is better than a shotgun slug.

A bud of mine from Ohio says the 450 BM cartridge is now deer-legal, and so he plans to get a 450 Ruger Scout rifle to fill as many deer tags as he's allowed. Sounds like an interesting set-up.

[jmr40]

45/70 is to much gun for Whitetails.

There is a lot of mythology about the 45-70. A lot of that is due to colorful advertising by Marlin in 1972 when they re-introduced the round. It was developed in 1873 and designed for killing indians during the post civil war indian wars.

Partly because of Marlin advertising lots of folks think it was a popular buffalo hunting cartridge. Unfortunately most of the buffalo were dead long before it was introduced and laws were passed in 1874 banning buffalo hunting to preserve the handful left.

In the 1870's and 1880's it was considered too weak for anything larger than deer and was not prefered as a hunting cartridge. Although it was used simply because as a military round it was available. The original black powder loads are about the same as a 45 caliber muzzle loader, and that is considered the minimum for deer in most states and not legal in many places for game larger than deer. By the 1890's there were many other better cartridges. When the 30-30 was introduced it was considered vastly superior to 45-70 and by the end of the 1890's the 45-70 was mostly a dead cartridge.

It survived only because it had once been a military cartridge and there were a handful of enthusiast's who kept it alive to target shoot using traditional Springfield rifles.

Marlin introduced the 444 in the 1960's, but bullet technology of the day did not allow it to really do what they wanted. In 1972, to celebrate the 100'th anniversary of the 45-70 Marlin revived it from the dead.

With modern bullets and loads it is now a legitimate big game cartridge, although with extreme recoil. The better loads, in a lightweight Marlin lever exceed 458 WM recoil from standard weight bolt guns.

[zeke]

Or it can be as simple as short people like shorter rifles. Have the 45-70 guide gun, and it is amazingly accurate for 45-70. At least it was when my eyes were good enough to use the standard buckhorn sights. Shorter barrel lengths move the cent of gravity rearward, which I appreciate.

[Drm50]

I agree with carbine concept for fast pointing. I have a pair of Marlin Marauders
30/30 & 35, both with Lyman 66 reciever sights, and a Rem 14 in 35. They are
hard to beat for woods hunting but I can't use them here in Ohio. My point was
they have similar ballistics to legal calibres but not allowed under our regs. There
has been more deer killed with 30/30s than the rest combined and it's a myth
that they wound deer. A poor shot is a poor shot. If you can't kill a deer with a
30/30 you got no business in the woods.

[Ricklin]

I am rehabbing an old Stevens 325C in 30-30. It shall be my dark and deep woods rifle.
Washington state has wide open spaces on the East side, and about the deepest darkest woods one can find on the West side, esp. the coast.
I live close to the coast, so that's the most likely hunting venue. If I go over East I have my .270.

It had a cheap charlie Tasco 3-9 which is now in my junk pile. Am looking for a compact low power 1" to go on the "sidesaddle" mount. If it were not for the modifications to both the stock and the holes in the receiver I would go with a peep sight, which it is factory drilled for.

I rather like that this old gun has a WW2 surplus machine gun barrel. It was very inexpensive in it's day.

I t was my brides dad's gun and since it was scoped for him, I will likely keep it that way. It will have an appropriate scope tho. Am thinking Bushnell 2-7 X 32, the higher end made in Japan Bushnell. I like their rainguard coating, very good glass, esp. for the dollar.

[LineStretcher]

As a former fishing guide that often guided in bear country, the reason I carried a break down, short barreled guide gun was so I could put it in my pack and no one would be the wiser. Instead of hearing, "Why do you have a gun" at the beginning of the trip, when I saw signs of bear, I would pull it out put it together and hear, "glad you brought that along". My .45 Semi was always in my chest holster and I easily concealed that.

Another person here said they didn't know the bear was that close. This is so true. You typically don't know they're in the area until they want you to know. The .45 ACP round is loud enough to get them to move on if they're willing and if they're close and charging you're pretty much screwed so in that case, memorize your favorite prayer.