Help with No4 Mk1* Enfield

targetgeek · February 23, 2013, 01:04 PM

I recently purchased this No4 Mk1* gun but am having a difficult time reconciling some of the markings. Photos are below, but the main issue is that it has a low Serial number with no prefix (0180) which indicates that it was made at BSA Shirley around 1942; however, it is also marked as a No4 Mk1* and most of the data I've found says the * guns were only made in Canada or the U.S.
This gun was apparently refurbished in India in 1963 and has import marks of 303-P-England. It also has an "S" on the stock.
Any ideas about what factory actually mfg. his Enfield?
Mike

deerslayer303 · February 23, 2013, 02:55 PM

Try this link, I got it from Surplusrifleforum.com. You should join there, there is a sub forum just for the Enfields, and other milsurps. Lots of knowledge there. More than my brain can soak up.

http://home.earthlink.net/~smithkaia8/index.html

5THBATT · February 23, 2013, 04:31 PM

IMO these two forums are far superior & have all the true experts on Lee Enfields
http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...sc&daysprune=2

http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay...=72&order=desc

wogpotter · February 23, 2013, 04:37 PM

How do you remove the bolt?
This will tell if its a No 4 Mk 1, or a No 4 Mk1*.

tahunua001 · February 23, 2013, 04:46 PM

agreed with wog potter, if it has a spring loaded take down lever near the rear sight post then it is a MK1, if it has a slot cut out of the bolt guide near the front of the receiver then it is a MK1*. either way, the MK1*was only made by savage and longbranch. the * may be a fake as it appears to be much more uniform that clear than many of the other markings on this rifle.

5THBATT · February 23, 2013, 05:05 PM

I think it's a Mk1* as we should be able to see the top of the bolthead release in the 1st photo if it was a Mk1.

From a No1 MkVI but the same release as a No4 Mk1

CowTowner · February 23, 2013, 08:29 PM

AFAIK, the "S" on the stock means it's a short length butt stock.

5THBATT · February 23, 2013, 08:51 PM

The S on the butt means different things dependent on the location, in this case it means that a spring washer is attached to the buttstock bolt, when the S is stamped on the heel of the butt then it means short length butt.

targetgeek · February 23, 2013, 09:06 PM

Thanks for the replies. The bolt is removed with the notch as with the * models. It has neither the Longbranch or US markings. The serial number is on the right side of receiver 00180.

5THBATT · February 23, 2013, 09:20 PM

During the FR process Ishapore would often remove all previous markings & restamp the rifle including a new serial number.
You will have to fully disassemble the rifle & look for any markings missed during the FR to find out the original manufacturer, as its a Mk1* it would either be Long Branch or Savage.

madcratebuilder · February 24, 2013, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by targetgeek

Thanks for the replies. The bolt is removed with the notch as with the * models. It has neither the Longbranch or US markings. The serial number is on the right side of receiver 00180.

The "No4 MkI*" on the left side appears unmolested. Long Branch No4's would normally have "LONG BRANCH" just below the No4 MKI* marking. Some have the year under the Long Branch. I don't think this rifle is a LB

The Savage could have just a "No4 MkI*" on the left side. The US PROPERTY mark is on the top left side of the receiver and very easily removed. It's possible this rifle was/is a Savage with the serial number scrubbed from the left side of the wrist and the US Property mark milled off.

I've seen three or four RFI FR's, as I recall a lot of scrubbing of original markings.

I would completely disassemble this and photograph all parts that have any kind of marking. Some of the RFI work is very well done. I saw a No5 carbine that was a RFI FR and it was near presentation grade. Clearly made for someone of importance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5THBATT

The S on the butt means different things dependent on the location, in this case it means that a spring washer is attached to the buttstock bolt, when the S is stamped on the heel of the butt then it means short length butt.

Interesting. Any documentation for this? A link to a web site? I have never heard of this before. It does seem possible, but why would they want to know if it has a split lock or a spring washer.

targetgeek · February 24, 2013, 10:33 AM

Thanks to all. I'll break it down and see what I can find.
Mike

5THBATT · February 24, 2013, 01:33 PM

madcratebuilder, it is listed as such in Skennerton's books, here it is in "The Broad Arrow".

And from "The Lee-Enfield"

targetgeek · February 26, 2013, 08:55 PM

I took off the front fore grip and took a careful look at the smaller parts. Found several of the square S marks. Didn't see any savage marks on the barrel but there was the same number (00180) there as on the receiver... Left side of the barrel had a etched square. The left side of the receiver does look like it was milled down where the US PROPERTY would have been. Front sight has the adjustable screw.
As someone pointed out, the No4 Mk1* is odd.... I can't find another example of where the one is a "1" rather than "I" .... And the "o" and "k" are usually underlined superscript rather than low as with this rifle.
We may never know, but it appears to be a Savage that was refurbed in 1963.

madcratebuilder · February 28, 2013, 05:15 AM

Thanks 5THBATT, I like learning something new about LE's. Would you say this "S" would be on No1's or No4's or both? Another indication of Indian service.

targetgeek · February 28, 2013, 08:39 AM

I'd say the square S is a Savage mark on the smaller parts. The right hand grip has the data of Indian refurb in 1963. The real puzzle seems to be how the No4 Mk1* was done since it's not like others I've seen. Usually with a Savage, there is the square S before that line in addition to the other oddities mentioned above.

wogpotter · February 28, 2013, 01:08 PM

Quote:

The real puzzle seems to be how the No4 Mk1* was done since it's not like others I've seen. Usually with a Savage, there is the square S before that line

Not always. Here's my '42 Savage No4 Mk1*.
The data is in 2 different places as you can see, some on the receiver left sidewall, & some on the wrist left hand side. The "square S" is only on the wrist, not the receiver left sidewall.
I'm guessing either the RFI, or CAI re-stamped a normal Savage No4 Mk1* after it was scrubbed of original markings. Looking at the earlier pics I think you can see where the scrub was done on the sidewall. Compare the "lip" about 1/3 rd of the way back on his receiver & mine. It looks shallower on the RFI rifle.

MA45XP · March 1, 2013, 08:20 AM

The "303 - P -ENGLAND".. the P will be a miss struck B for "British" the calibre is .303British, and country of origin "England" which are some of the requirements for import marks. After a certain date (which I cannot recall, so won't guess) they had to have the name of the importing company as well, so if there is no importer marking, it has been in the US for quite a while.

As far as the S under the wrist of the butt goes, I don't have a book that says it doesn't appear on No1 butts that saw service in India, but I cannot recall seeing one marked such. As 5THBATT rightly said, there are lots of S marks... maybe it's time to step up from the beginners forums and get among the big boys, they don't bite. Some of the boards out there have developed very little in the way of their knowledge base for a long time. The two Mr BATT mentioned are the home of the keenest researchers and collectors out there who are only too happy to share their knowledge.
Don't be afraid to buy books either, and then read them, twice. Once again there are authors to avoid, but anything from Ian Skennerton will give you the right info. (He drops in over at milsurps.com too)

madcratebuilder · March 1, 2013, 10:44 AM

Here's a early Savage strike.

5THBATT · March 1, 2013, 05:48 PM

"Thanks 5THBATT, I like learning something new about LE's. Would you say this "S" would be on No1's or No4's or both? Another indication of Indian service."

It appears on both & i would say it would be a good indicator to Indian service but like all things Enfield never say "never" or "always".

As for the forums, yes those two i listed are good forums, beware of another forum that is run by a self claimed guru who in late 2006 did not even have a firearms license or had even handled a firearm in years, there has been an ongoing battle between this person & a few well knowledgeable & very well known collectors with large & extensive collections over the last 4 to 5 years resulting in many bannings (myself included) of good people including a current & practicing armorer.

February 23, 2013, 02:55 PM	#2
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,652	Try this link, I got it from Surplusrifleforum.com. You should join there, there is a sub forum just for the Enfields, and other milsurps. Lots of knowledge there. More than my brain can soak up. http://home.earthlink.net/~smithkaia8/index.html __________________ "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

February 23, 2013, 04:37 PM	#4
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	How do you remove the bolt? This will tell if its a No 4 Mk 1, or a No 4 Mk1*. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

February 23, 2013, 04:46 PM	#5
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	agreed with wog potter, if it has a spring loaded take down lever near the rear sight post then it is a MK1, if it has a slot cut out of the bolt guide near the front of the receiver then it is a MK1. either way, the MK1was only made by savage and longbranch. the * may be a fake as it appears to be much more uniform that clear than many of the other markings on this rifle. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

February 23, 2013, 05:05 PM	#6
5THBATT Member Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 28	I think it's a Mk1* as we should be able to see the top of the bolthead release in the 1st photo if it was a Mk1. From a No1 MkVI but the same release as a No4 Mk1 Last edited by 5THBATT; February 23, 2013 at 06:11 PM.

February 23, 2013, 08:29 PM	#7
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 1,747	AFAIK, the "S" on the stock means it's a short length butt stock. __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor *“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......”* President John F. Kennedy

February 23, 2013, 04:31 PM	#3
5THBATT Member Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 28	IMO these two forums are far superior & have all the true experts on Lee Enfields http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdis...sc&daysprune=2 http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay...=72&order=desc

February 23, 2013, 08:51 PM	#8
5THBATT Member Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 28	The S on the butt means different things dependent on the location, in this case it means that a spring washer is attached to the buttstock bolt, when the S is stamped on the heel of the butt then it means short length butt.

February 23, 2013, 09:06 PM	#9
targetgeek Junior Member Join Date: February 23, 2013 Posts: 5	Bolt is mk1* Thanks for the replies. The bolt is removed with the notch as with the * models. It has neither the Longbranch or US markings. The serial number is on the right side of receiver 00180.

February 23, 2013, 09:20 PM	#10
5THBATT Member Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 28	During the FR process Ishapore would often remove all previous markings & restamp the rifle including a new serial number. You will have to fully disassemble the rifle & look for any markings missed during the FR to find out the original manufacturer, as its a Mk1* it would either be Long Branch or Savage.

February 24, 2013, 10:33 AM	#12
targetgeek Junior Member Join Date: February 23, 2013 Posts: 5	Thanks Thanks to all. I'll break it down and see what I can find. Mike

February 24, 2013, 01:33 PM	#13
5THBATT Member Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 28	madcratebuilder, it is listed as such in Skennerton's books, here it is in "The Broad Arrow". And from "The Lee-Enfield"

February 26, 2013, 08:55 PM	#14
targetgeek Junior Member Join Date: February 23, 2013 Posts: 5	Update I took off the front fore grip and took a careful look at the smaller parts. Found several of the square S marks. Didn't see any savage marks on the barrel but there was the same number (00180) there as on the receiver... Left side of the barrel had a etched square. The left side of the receiver does look like it was milled down where the US PROPERTY would have been. Front sight has the adjustable screw. As someone pointed out, the No4 Mk1* is odd.... I can't find another example of where the one is a "1" rather than "I" .... And the "o" and "k" are usually underlined superscript rather than low as with this rifle. We may never know, but it appears to be a Savage that was refurbed in 1963.

February 28, 2013, 05:15 AM	#15
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Thanks 5THBATT, I like learning something new about LE's. Would you say this "S" would be on No1's or No4's or both? Another indication of Indian service.

February 28, 2013, 08:39 AM	#16
targetgeek Junior Member Join Date: February 23, 2013 Posts: 5	I'd say the square S is a Savage mark on the smaller parts. The right hand grip has the data of Indian refurb in 1963. The real puzzle seems to be how the No4 Mk1* was done since it's not like others I've seen. Usually with a Savage, there is the square S before that line in addition to the other oddities mentioned above.

March 1, 2013, 08:20 AM	#18
MA45XP Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2013 Location: Orstraya Posts: 11	The "303 - P -ENGLAND".. the P will be a miss struck B for "British" the calibre is .303British, and country of origin "England" which are some of the requirements for import marks. After a certain date (which I cannot recall, so won't guess) they had to have the name of the importing company as well, so if there is no importer marking, it has been in the US for quite a while. As far as the S under the wrist of the butt goes, I don't have a book that says it doesn't appear on No1 butts that saw service in India, but I cannot recall seeing one marked such. As 5THBATT rightly said, there are lots of S marks... maybe it's time to step up from the beginners forums and get among the big boys, they don't bite. Some of the boards out there have developed very little in the way of their knowledge base for a long time. The two Mr BATT mentioned are the home of the keenest researchers and collectors out there who are only too happy to share their knowledge. Don't be afraid to buy books either, and then read them, twice. Once again there are authors to avoid, but anything from Ian Skennerton will give you the right info. (He drops in over at milsurps.com too) __________________ There are some things that money cannot buy... For everything else there is Mastercard .....................ENFIELDS...............

March 1, 2013, 10:44 AM	#19
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Here's a early Savage strike.

March 1, 2013, 05:48 PM	#20
5THBATT Member Join Date: February 7, 2013 Posts: 28	"Thanks 5THBATT, I like learning something new about LE's. Would you say this "S" would be on No1's or No4's or both? Another indication of Indian service." It appears on both & i would say it would be a good indicator to Indian service but like all things Enfield never say "never" or "always". As for the forums, yes those two i listed are good forums, beware of another forum that is run by a self claimed guru who in late 2006 did not even have a firearms license or had even handled a firearm in years, there has been an ongoing battle between this person & a few well knowledgeable & very well known collectors with large & extensive collections over the last 4 to 5 years resulting in many bannings (myself included) of good people including a current & practicing armorer.

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