dies for 223 rem ?

[Bart B.]

Older reloading info in print oft times had misinformation.

One of my favorite errors was in a bullet company's claim that cartridges layed in the chamber bottom when fired.

Another was such case positions prevented the case wall from expanding at that bottom part of the case; the pressure ring step was only at the top of such case positions.

Best one claims case heads are held against bolt faces while the round fires.

[hounddawg]

with that case being squeezed inside that sizing die it there is no room for that case head to get out square is there ? The only part of the case that is not fully enclosed is the thickest part of the case web and the case head itself. I bet you could not get a case head off perpendicular in a press even if you tried your hardest. Way too much force required even for a Lyman Crusher

not to mention that to do so would require the shell holder to be at a angle. I worked in a tool and die shop for years. That would require a total screw up putting forth a lot of effort to accomplish

[cw308]

I would think if your bolt face wasn't true to the chamber or if brass thickness was more going down one side causing a bend would be more likely being the problem then the press setup
when set up correctly

[Bart B.]

cw308, if reduced loads are used, sometimes the thin section of case walls will stretch back more than the thick section. That can cause out of square case heads as well as shorter case headspace after firing.

Rarely happens with maximum loads

[hounddawg]

Savage and Bighorn actions use a floating bolt face, might be others that do so also

you guys sweat the small stuff too much. 90% of my flyers are due to the indian screwing something up not the arrow

[cw308]

I'm shooting a Rem 700 , when I had a new barrel installed I wanted a complete blueprinting job , bolt face , locking lugs , threads and barrel lug and anything else that had to be trued , I left it up to them Accurate Ordanance to true my one an only . I read articles on problems with brass to rifle precision , it's my thing I guess , also talking on this forum and add what little I know .

[hounddawg]

One my shooting buddies up at the club punched his NRA High Master tickets in both mid and long range using a rifle he put together in his garage using a off the shelf Bighorn action with a floating bolt face. When I start outshooting him I might sweat whether that bolt face is .001 degrees off perpendicular

[T. O'Heir]

"...a competition set of dies..." Those are primarily about marketing. The assorted companies' marketing types think they must bring out something new regularly or risk losing market share. So the design guys make something and the marketing monkies(that includes the gun rag writers) hype it as the best thing since sliced bread. Even though new stuff rarely does anything better than the old stuff. Digital stuff doesn't measure any better, but it is far easier to read.
Loading match grade ammo is mostly about being meticulous and doing everything exactly the same every time. It's far more important to weigh each powder load and use match grade bullets than anything else.
"...Multiple older reloading manuals do...." Please name one. All my manuals are considered old and not one mentions anything about any die being square to anything. Mind you, there's no such thing as "die headspace" either.

[cw308]

dawg
Just looked at the new TL3 bighorn action . Never knew about them , that's the problem with learning as you go along . If I would start from scratch I would have put together a rifle from action barrel and stock instead of buying off the rack and making the best of it . When I said I would I meant a gunsmith . I like the floating bolt face on the bighorn and Savage , Savage it's easy to rebarrel , one of my shooting buddies has the single shot benchrest model in 223 , when it came time to rebarrel he told me Savage would sell him a new Savage barrel , he bought a match barrel from another barrel maker for a Savage . He wanted a Savage barrel . Making a short story long , I like the bighorn action alot and it dismantles very easily .

Chris

[Bart B.]

New cases are not made with rubber O-ringed forming and shaping dies. The dies are very tight lock ringed in place for each cup, draw, head, rim, bunt, flash holeing, neck and shoulder forming stages after the coins are cut from brass sheets.

Much the same for making bullets.

[hounddawg]

you can find spin on barrels for just about anything using a barrel nut these days CW. Tikka's, Rugers, Savages, even Remingtons as long as your stock has cleqarance for the barrel nut. Savage started the trend

https://patriotvalleyarms.com/barrel...uger-american/

http://northlandshooterssupply.com/b...ington-remage/

[Metal god]

Savage and Bighorn actions use a floating bolt face, might be others that do so also

Actually they are not . The front lugs that turn are floating , the bolt face is fixed to the rest of the bolt . That means the lugs can have even contact but does not mean the bolt face is square to the bore axis .

To have a truely floating bolt face the bolt face would need to be floating ahead of the bolt ram/handle . If the bolt face is fixed to the ram portion . That would mean the whole receiver would need to be cut perfectly aligned with the bore access so the entire bolt slides in perfect alignment to the bore axis when using the floating lug type bolts ??

At least that’s how I’ve always looked at it ??

[hounddawg]

well MG that's what Savage calls it. All I know is it is replaceable, I can go from a magnum to a .308 to a .223 bolt face in about 10 minutes. Me I call the area where the primer meet the firing pin the bolt face, I might be wrong terminology for this forum.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1778434934?pid=548296

Savages tend to shoot pretty good depending on who is pulling the trigger. A guy took a Savage 12 in .338 with the stock Savage barrel and dropped it into a aftermarket chassis and made the guys with BAT and Panda actions cry

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...ecord.3986070/

[Bart B.]

Bolt face traditional definition is the recessed diameter of the case head plus a few thousandths. That's the diameter of the end mill that's used to square up the bolt. About .484" for 308 Win cases.

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/truin..._face-standard

Has to be large enough to allow for bolt way axis some thousandths off the chamber axis and case diameter a few thousandths smaller than and off center in the chamber.

[cw308]

All my shooting buddies that are shooting Savages love them , triggers are adjustable one has his trigger set at 4 ounces , I like my Jewell set at 10 . I can bed , change triggers , modify the stock to fit me just right add a cheekweld but barrel work I send it out . If I had a Savage I would definitely change it myself . Remington's aren't as easy. I like the idea of the floating bolt face but I don't know how when locked in place squaring up in the chamber , when the round is fired what stops the floating head from moving . If it's locked in the locking lug channel how would that be self centering . I have to look at one the next time out.

[hounddawg]

I don't know how when locked in place squaring up in the chamber , when the round is fired what stops the floating head from moving . If it's locked in the locking lug channel how would that be self centering . I have to look at one the next time out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuY8wGb-UBk

Savage 11, the bolt is slightly different from the 10, 12 but head works the same

[cw308]

Thanks dawg
Looks pretty easy to strip the bolt . One of the guys I shoot with has the same s Savage only right hand bolt , I don't think he ever stripped the bolt down. Strong looking bolt , Savage is turning out tack drivers at a fare price . I hate to admit I only went with the Remington I just liked the look of it also Winchester . Savage the way the bolt looked bothered me . They sure can shoot though . Thanks Again dawg . Be Well.

Chris

[Metal god]

Originally Posted by Me

Actually they are not . The front lugs that turn are floating , the bolt face is fixed to the rest of the bolt

OK brace your selves this may be hard to believe . I was 100% wrong in the above quote which made most of what else I said in that post moot . The bolt head in my Savage model 10 is in fact floating and independent of the rest of the bolt ram and handle . In my head I had what I thought/remembered backwards in how it's designed . Sorry about that dawg

I'll agree with the others that say a factory Savage if a nice rifle . I've got 4k+ rounds down the pipe and I feel it doesn't shoot as well as it once did but it's still sub moa al day . I just don't see those 1/4 moa groups anymore from it .

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

German Salazar published some comparisons of seating dies with regard to how much runout their finished cartridges have. The Redding Competition Seating Die got the top marks for minimizing final cartridge runout, and Salazar fired groups with cartridges loaded in all the match seating dies he tried, and the Redding die's ammo produced the smallest group. Salazar's write-up is at this URL:

http://www.uniquetek.com/store/69629...Die-Runout.pdf

Salazar's test has a built in about half MOA or more group enlargement factor. Anyone know what it is?

[hounddawg]

Eight years ago when I switched my main cartridge from .308 to .260 Rem I forgot to order a seating die. I wanted to test the barrel and thought why not use that .308 Forster micrometer just to see how it seats. Loaded 25 rounds and checked them on my concentricity tool as I seated bullets and all 25 were less than .002 and 90% less than .001 runout. Last year I bought a wilson inline seating die in .260 Rem for use in my arbor press. I get way more feel when seating but avg runout did not change. No better no worse. So most of the time I still seat using that .308 die on my main press, Someday I might buy a real .260 Rem die for the Rockchucker but am in no hurry.

For a bullet to exert enough force to make the neck off go off center without the bullet jacket being gouged and copper being shaved off would be a amazing thing in my opinion

I guess my cases are tougher than most, I get the feeling that a lot of people use some really fragile stuff

edit:

Just my pet theory but I think bullets behave like water, electricity and people. It will follow the path of least resistance when being seated. If the neck is straight, the bullet will be also. If the neck is pulled off center the bullet will follow the sides of that neck. When Litz was testing neck tension he said that over .005 neck tension would gouge and shave the copper jacket of the bullet. Just my gut intuition here but I think in order for a bullet to alter the neck during seating would require a good deal of force to be exerted in the lateral direction and I just don't see where that could happen. It's way less work for the bullet just to slide in parallel to the neck walls. Maybe graphite does help in that, never thought about that aspect of neck lubing..

BTW if I don't post for a few days don't get too relieved LOL. I'll probably be without electricity for a day or two

[cw308]

I agree with your thinking , taking the path of least resistance , also being the case isn't locked solid in the die at the neck the wiggle room maybe .001 but going down the case to the base it may wiggle alittle more keeping runout to a minimum.

[hounddawg]

I have never checked concentricity against neck lubes cases and non neck lubed. Reducing the friction between the bullet jacket and the case wall would make it even more likely that the bullet would just slide in with equal friction on all sides. A light inside chamfer on the neck might also help.

[cw308]

I probably over prep my cases only because I shoot 30 rounds per range trip . After trimming I chamfer inside and out , also I have a undersized cleaning brush wrapped in 0000 steel wool locked in my drill press , a few up and down passes through the necks , not to remove brass but polish . Dipping the base of the bullet in the dry lube makes seating very smooth . I'm only shooting 308 would be a different story with 223 , most would probably sink to the bottom of the jar .

[hounddawg]

I just dip the necks, seat the bullet and wipe off the round with a paper towel before dropping in box. My hands are used to getting washed a lot so no big deal there

[cw308]

Use to do it that way but the black stuff didn't stop at the hands , your neater then me.

Chris