dies for 223 rem ?

[rebs]

I have been reloading 223 rem for my Tikka T3x varmint using a set of RCBS dies that are about 7 years old and might be time for a new set of dies.
What do you guys recommend for loading match quality rounds ?

[FITASC]

What's wrong with the ones you have? Do you damage them?

[cw308]

rebs
When I first got into reloading I started out with the RCBS RockChucker Supreme and the RCBS standard Full , Neck and seating dies 30 + years ago , I tried the Redding S Type bushings for awhile experimenting with neck tension . What worked best for me was the original RCBS Full length sizing die along with the Redding Competition Shellholders and the Redding Competition Seating Die . We're always trying to improve , trying new things , that's the fun of it . If you get into neck turning your cases then bushing dies without the expander may work better for you . You must have a die in mind for your Tikka .

[hounddawg]

I like the Redding FL S bushing die for sizing and the absolute hands down best seater for those itty bitty bullets is the RCBS Gold Medal Match Series Seater Die. The bullet port means no more pinched fingers and aligns the bullet perfectly with the case

[Bart B.]

Any good full length sizing die without an expander whose neck is 1 to 2 thousandths smaller than a loaded rounds neck.

Honing out your existing die will probably do well. Then grind its expander down to 20 caliber.

Your existing seater will do just fine.

[rebs]

Thank you for the replies

Looks like I will take Bart's advise and do what he suggests. Save the money for other things like bullets, powder and primers.
I was originally thinking maybe a competition set of dies.

[hounddawg]

Honing out your existing die will probably do well. Then grind its expander down to 20 caliber.

I'd like to do that for my 6.5 Grendel dies. How exactly would I accomplish that without any machine tools other than a drillpress

[zeke]

Have found a Redding comp seater worth the money for any rifle round am serious about.

As Bart does, any good fl sizing die with the expander removed, but set up to decap. While there are always exceptions, 223 seems mostly fairly consistent.

While others are gonna disagree, squaring your die to set it up helps concentricity. Combined with good comp seater really helps.

Sometimes it ain't what tools ya got, but how you use them.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by hounddawg

I'd like to do that for my 6.5 Grendel dies. How exactly would I accomplish that without any machine tools other than a drillpress

Use a Flexhone whose diameter is a bit larger than the neck.

Don't need to square up the die in the press. Cases align very straight with the die axis regardless of a tiny angle it might have to the ram axis.

[zeke]

In your opinion, a lot of others opinions would differ. It's about lining up the die axis. If the die axis is off, the case follows the die, but the case head may not tilt in the shell holder. There can be alot of force involved.

And it costs nothing to try.

[cw308]

If you are sizing with full contact between shellholder and die at the top of the stroke you have a better chance you die would be true with the shellholder , I use a #17 O Ring between press and lockring , helps in self centering and removing slack in threads , works well for me . I do the same on the expander ball stem to self center the expander ball .

[Bart B.]

There's enough clearance from case to shell holder and to ram to allow several thousandths die axis misalignment to shell holder. Measure your stuff to see how much there is.

How much side play does the ram head have at the top of its stroke?

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by cw308

If you are sizing with full contact between shellholder and die at the top of the stroke you have a better chance you die would be true with the shellholder , I use a #17 O Ring between press and lockring , helps in self centering and removing slack in threads , works well for me . I do the same on the expander ball stem to self center the expander ball .

My presses had their die and ram holes drilled, reamed and tapped with one piece cutters so they're perfectly aligned on one axis.

Tightening the die lock ring removes thread slack.

I don't use case neck benders; aka expander balls.

[zeke]

Squaring the dies refers to maintaining a 90 degree angle from the shell holder to the die, not the slight horizontal play in the shell holder. Am glad your equipment is "perfect", without any tolerance level in production. Of course your dies must also be "perfectly" concentrically drilled/reamed without any tolerance. Not that the coarse threads would allow the die to be tightened up off center, even if the play was removed? I can tilt a die in my rock chucker, and lock it in place with the tilt.

Long time back was thrilled with my first carbide pistol die from the vaunted maker Redding. Used it to size 500 brandy new 45 acp cases to straighten em out. Not till i finished did i notice the buldge on one side of the cases. Careful visual inspection of the die showed the carbide ring was off center.

While most of the time am not using an expander ball, as cw308 explains, they can be self centered also to significantly reduce the risk of pulling the neck off center.

I just use a fired case to center sizing dies, squaring the hole to ram force.

Again, it costs nothing.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...=600042&page=3

[Bart B.]

My shell holders don't touch the dies. If they do, die headspace is too short and shoulder is set back too far to bump case shoulders back only a couple thousandths. Die headspace is typically ~.005" less than barrel chamber headspace spec when touching the shellholder. I set the die to clear the shellholder top a few thousandths to set fired case shoulders back a couple thousandths.

Normal tolerances in shell holder to case head and ram allow for ram head to die alignment tolerances.

How much side clearance do your case heads have in their shell holders? And side play in the ram head at the top of its stroke?

[cw308]

Bart B
I'm an average reloader , using a store bought press and dies as I'm sure most of us here use . I don't think I'll ever play in the big leagues . Even though I think I can help the average reloader with things that worked for me and things that haven't , and you have been helpful to me in the past . Your getting to act like the big fish in a small pond . When I post things I just say it works well for me . You can give it a try or don't . I guess the proof is at the target .

Chris

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by zeke

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...=600042&page=3

The cartridge run out measuring thing shown in the link doesn't hold and position the cartridge like it is an the chamber when fired, But then, neither does any other commercial one. Run out it shows won't be what it is in the chamber, often more than what it really is.

If you know what centers the rimless bottleneck cartridge in the front of the chamber when fired, you'll agree.

[Unclenick]

I think the usual assumption is case and chamber shoulder contact forces centering of the neck in the chamber neck as pressure builds in and expands the case. This happens before the bullet can move significantly forward, so having the bullet and neck perpendicular to and centered in the shoulder will prevent the bullet from seating into the throat at an angle, which, up to a point, causes off bore axis drift when the bullet exits. Unfortunately, it takes a more sophisticated tool setup to measure that neck and shoulder relationship than it does to measure the coaxiality of the whole cartridge, so that's what conventional tools measure.

Both John Feamster and German Salazar published some comparisons of seating dies with regard to how much runout their finished cartridges have. The Redding Competition Seating Die got the top marks for minimizing final cartridge runout, and Salazar fired groups with cartridges loaded in all the match seating dies he tried, and the Redding die's ammo produced the smallest group. Salazar's write-up is at this URL:

http://www.uniquetek.com/store/69629...Die-Runout.pdf

[zeke]

BartB-The link is to thread with a series of links that demonstrate who squares their dies. Not debating cartridge runout measuring thingy referred to in one post by another.

Among them a link to post with likely more combined experience than anyone here. You may know alot, but you sas don't know it all. There are also links to many other articles/books published describing "squaring" dies. If you want to discuss something else entirely, go right ahead.

U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit
August 19, 2015 ·
Beginning Handloading, Part 10:
Minimizing Runout with Standard Dies
Aug. 19, 2015

[Bart B.]

Of course, neither I, nor anyone knows it all. I know that ammo reloaded without all that die squaring rigamarow can shoot in the ones and twos at 100 yards as well as threes and fours at 600. New unprepped cases can shoot in the fives at 1000. Units are 10ths of MOA.

[hounddawg]

how does the neck of a case in a FL sizing die misalign with the body of the case when being FL sized? There is zero clearance between the case wall/neck and the case. That is why the shell holders on conventional presses hold the case loosely, so it can align to the die as it enters. On the co ax style press of course the case is held rigid and the dies float for allowing the case to align

now when the ram is being lowered of the neck is no longer supported and the expander bushing can pull it to one side or the other which is why I remove the expander button from my dies.

Doing a home grown honing could case the neck and the body portions of the die to become misaligned so I think I will pass on that one

[Bart B.]

Does any reloading die instructions address squaring them in the press? Or instructions for the press?

Hounddawg, it's not nice to use sound reasoning and logic saying how does the neck of a case in a FL sizing die misalign with the body of the case when being FL sized? There is zero clearance between the case wall/neck and the case. That is why the shell holders on conventional presses hold the case loosely, so it can align to the die as it enters. On the co ax style press of course the case is held rigid and the dies float for allowing the case to align

[zeke]

Multiple older reloading manuals do. What some people fail to comprehend is the whole die or chamber in the die can be misaligned with the vertical force of the ram. While a case can horizontally align in the shell holder, the force being applied forces the bottom of the case parallel to the resistant force of the shell holder. If the sizing portion of the die is not squared to the surface of the shell holder that supports the bottom of the case, the case concentricity can be affected. Under the force of the ram a shell holder can not magically tilt to vertically align with a sizing die not vertically square. This means at 90 degrees. A case holder can horizontally align with the die, as it was designed to do.

Can't find anywhere where someone said the case neck is not aligned with the case body.
Go back to the links already provided. Some Older reloading manuals had this information. Seems to be a case if someone didn't know about or ever tried it, it couldn't happen. Or some just want to see their name on posts continually.

[hounddawg]

Bart reading comprehension is your friend, I pointed out in my post that on a Coax the die floats and the case is held rigid. Bottom line whether you are sizing on a conventional or a co ax there has to be float in order for the case and the die to align themselves to each other or the brass would be collapsed with the slightest misalignment

Now when a conventional die is manufactured a step reamer is used. One diameter cuts the neck portion while the larger part cuts the case body section. You can't get more perfectly aligned that that. Same way you ream a chamber. Sounds to me like honing with a hand tool is a good way to screw that perfect alignment up.

I did remove a burr once on the body portion using some 800 grit cloth. I was getting a scratch mark on one side of my cases during sizing where a piece of ??? on a case had raised a small burr. Made a tube with the sand cloth and spun it inside the die for about a half turn once or twice and burr went away. Several thousand cases later it is still good

[Bart B.]

What alignment problems are caused by out of square case heads?