30-30AI data with Leverevolution powder

[rickt300]

Started with the max load listed for the 30-30 and the 150 grain bullet listed for LVR, this being 38.5 grains. Primer is CCI 200. Rifle is a Contender carbine with a shortened to 21 inch barrel that was rechambered to 30-30 Ackley improved. I worked up to 41.0 grains under the 150 grain Speer FP.

Chronied with a Magnetospeed the two shots measured for velocity went 2593 fps and 2597fps. Accuracy is excellent and pressure seems very mild as the primers do not re seat fully in the pocket just barely. This is getting pretty close to 300 Savage velocity. I feel I could go up another grain but can't see why and in the synthetic stocked carbine it is a bit buckish already.

[reynolds357]

You can't use primer readings to judge .30-30 pressure in a Contender. You will blow the thing up long before you see primer pressure signs. If you are shooting it in a bolt gun or an Encore, whole nother ball of wax.

[DockRock]

41 is certainly rather heavy going. Nigh on 2600 fps from a 21" barrel is quite impressive . I run 38.5 grs and the Hornady FTX 160 grs in a Savage 340 for just shy of 2500 fps. If you can get similar accuracy at 39-40 grs, if sacrifice the velocity for peace of mind.

[rickt300]

The point is the case did not have enough back thrust to re seat the primer, meaning cash head thrust which is the weak point in a Contender is almost non existent. Also there is absolutely no flattening or change of radius in the primers.

[rickt300]

MY 30-30 AI cases hold 4.2 grains more than a standard 30-30 case and I am only 2.5 grains above the max loading of 38.5 grains for the standard 30-30 case. There must be something special about the LVR powder. The AI case seems to stretch very little as I have yet to need to trim them. In my 23 inch 30-30 barrel I have to trim regularly and I only use them for 6 firings because of it.

[reynolds357]

The point is the case did not have enough back thrust to re seat the primer, meaning cash head thrust which is the weak point in a Contender is almost non existent. Also there is absolutely no flattening or change of radius in the primers.

If you have a Contender backing primers out any, you have a head space issue or you have stretched the frame. As far as primers go, your safe working pressure is about 45kpsi. Primer signs start showing at around 62kpsi. Contender can't stand 62kpsi.

[rickt300]

So you know nothing about how headspace works or what it is? Or an idea how pressure works and what happens when the firing pin hits the primer?

[reynolds357]

I understand headspace and I understand contenders. I lost count of how many I reamed. If you are backing out primers ANY, your weapon has issues?

[rickt300]

Man I am surprised you know so little then. Every cartridge backs out primers when fired, typically when the pressure drops to the point the case is not held in place by it the case moves back to the bolt face and reseats the primer flush with the case head. Often with reduced or low pressure rounds the case does not move back flush with the bolt face leaving the primer sticking out of the case pretty close to whatever headspace you have. The primers in this particular rifle and load end up being .001 above the case head. With top loads of IMR 4895 the case does reseat the primers flush. If I were to load it a bit hotter it would seat the primer back flush with LVR. Typically headspace can be as much as .006. Hodgens data for the standard 30-30 with LVR gives 2512 fps under the 150 grain bullet using 38.5 grs. of LVR at 34,800 cup. So getting another 80 or so fps out of a cartridge with 4.2 grains more capacity and 2.5 grs. more powder is not going to cause any issues or is unusual in any way.

Hodgdon
LVR
.308"
2.550"
35.0
2,314
28,700 CUP
38.5C
2,512
34,800 CUP

[reynolds357]

If you know all about it, why did you ask? If you are backing primers out ANY amount at any pressure the Contender can stand, you should be mad at who cut your chamber. How many Contender barrels you reamed? Sounds like you probably reamed the one you have now.
I am sure you are aware that cup and lup numbers are near worthless.
I never said you were over pressure. I said you can't use primer readings in a Contender. I further said if you are backing out primers, your headspace is out or your frame is stretched.

[rickt300]

The headspace with this barrel and frame combination is .003. You are aware all firearms have some degree of headspace right? Do a study on what happens when a gun is fired, do yourself a favor and educate yourself.

[reynolds357]

. The headspace with this barrel and frame combination is .003. You are aware all firearms have some degree of headspace right? Do a study on what happens when a gun is fired, do yourself a favor and educate yourself.

I know what happens when a rifle is fired.
You might want to educate yourself on a Contender. Please "educate" me on how I misunderstand your Contender. I am sure it will go something like "The primer ignites the powder. The primer is slightly pushed rearward before the pressure fully expands the brass and in the process of completely filling the chamber re-seats the primer." You must tell me how you have a headspace of .003. That will indeed be an education. Saami minimum is .063.

[BeeKay]

I have a Contender that I've just had reamed to 30/30 AI
Came across this thread in search of load data using LVR
... So, is the OPs Contender still alive with that load?
How's case life?

It's been 7 months. That's not too long to bring an old thread back.

[HiBC]

Its rather obvious the OP intends to say he has .003 head clearance.

And I'd guess he has more than .003 primer protrusion. How does that happen?
Bolt action rules don't always apply.

I learned enough from ne Contemder 14 in 7-30 Waters. Factory chamber. At the time,that brass was ridiculously expensive. The friend who owned this gun was getting stretch case separations at about 3 loadings.

I'll tell you.OP,what I told him.Headspace on the shoulder.Forget the rim.

Which we tried. It didn't help much It seemed to be a springy gun.

Proper static headspace isn't everything during the dynamics of firing.

I've seen some high speed video that reveals what we think s solid steel is far more alive than many realize

You may find case stretch rings and scrap brass determine Contender max loads

[BeeKay]

This reminds me of something that was SOP for Herrett loads.
Headspace off the shoulder for a tight fit against the breech, meaning a slight interference fit.
Does wonders for preventing case stretch.

[BeeKay]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Its rather obvious the OP intends to say he has .003 head clearance.

And I'd guess he has more than .003 primer protrusion. How does that happen?
Bolt action rules don't always apply.

I learned enough from ne Contemder 14 in 7-30 Waters. Factory chamber. At the time,that brass was ridiculously expensive. The friend who owned this gun was getting stretch case separations at about 3 loadings.

I'll tell you.OP,what I told him.Headspace on the shoulder.Forget the rim.

Which we tried. It didn't help much It seemed to be a springy gun.

Proper static headspace isn't everything during the dynamics of firing.

I've seen some high speed video that reveals what we think s solid steel is far more alive than many realize

You may find case stretch rings and scrap brass determine Contender max loads

I'm curious now
Am I reading correctly what you're saying or not?
Even with headspacing off the shoulder and proper headspacing, you were getting case stretch due to frame flex in Contenders?

[HiBC]

I'm curious now
Am I reading correctly what you're saying or not?
Even with headspacing off the shoulder and proper headspacing, you were getting case stretch due to frame flex in Contenders? ]

Close. Headspacing snug on the shoulder we still got stretch rings.As we were looking for case stretch rings,it did not get to the point of actual separations before we designated the brass scrap. Now here is an important point. Not having any other explanation,we ASSUMED it was some flexibility in the lockup or frame. Is that proved? I can't say that for sure. I'm satisfied that's what happened.

As I said,at that time,the new Federal virgin brass was outrageously expensive,as was factory loaded ammo.

If I recall correctly,the orginal 7-30Waters was formed from something stronger than 30-30? Maybe 225 Win? I'm not sure. Its been a long time.

Anyway,we went to necking down30-30,which as cheap and available,and disposable,so we just lived with short case life.

We weren't shooting the round count volume to pursue it much more.

At that time (no longer) we could draw a buck pronghorn tag and usually buy two more leftover doe tags.

To make life more interesting,we chose to try the 14 in handguns. I went with an MOA Maximum in 260 Rem. Strong,rigid accurate gun,But in my experience,marginal extraction with rimless cartridges. I could load 120 gr Nosler BT's to 2500+ fps and get reliable extraction with 100 yd groups the size of a quarter. That's with my poor shooting and a 4X Leupold.

IIRC I was using Varget or RE-15,assuming the quicker end of burn rate was appropriate for a 14 in bbl. Intially,I was going to order the gun in 250 Savage. There was something about 250 Savage reloading brass being discontinued at the time,so I switched.

If I were to do it over,Something like a 257 or 6.5 bore version of a 7-30 Waters AI would have a rim with good extraction

[BeeKay]

That's interesting to hear
I opted to go with the .30/30 AI, thinking that larger capacity wildcats would be shortening the life of the gun by creating stretch in the frame.
It sounds like it might be smart not to load to the max, because the 30/30 AI is probably topped out, as far as how powerful I can go.
I will be headspacing off the shoulder which leaves a tighter clearance (0") than the headspacing before fireforming, which was about .006"
So maybe case stretch happened in fireforming. But I measured before fireforming and after and the cases were shorter, not longer, as they ought to be.
But whatever the case with that, after fireforming, the gun snaps shut tight with an interference fit between the breech and the back of the case.

Before fireforming, the back of the case was below the back surface of the chamber, by about .003" and after fireforming it's higher by about .003" So the case is not longer but being headspaced back .006" further by headspacing off the shoulder as opposed to the rim.

I did some business with Mike Bellm Sr and read a few of his lengthy articles, and he explained some of the things that I didn't understand through reading.
So I believe I'm doing this right, although I'm not able to perform scientific tests any further than measuring cases.

I'll add to this: Reflecting upon my original reason for wanting to chamber a Contender barrel in .30 cal to begin with...
I wanted a handgun that is capable of 250 yd max range, for use with Barnes lead free projectiles, for hunting in CA and I decided on .30 cal because of the number of bullet choices.
The lead free bullets are typically longer and require deeper seating to allow the recommended free-bore before engagement into the rifling (IIRC .050"-.080")
So with the added seating depth consuming case volume in the .30/30, the AI seemed like a good choice.
When I had it reamed, I sent it out to David White and he did it right, but he gave it a longer throat as well, so now I can seat a bullet a bit further out than the original chamber permitted.
I have some Barnes bullets that are intended for .30/30 velocity for use in a tube mag lever rifle... Flat nose 150 gr - unimpressive BC but effective down to 1700 fps. I also have some 130 gr Barnes rifle bullets that I need to experiment with.

I have some LEVERevolution powder, as well as some 4198, 4895, 4064 and 748
So if anyone has some useful data to share, I'm listening

[rickt300]

Originally Posted by BeeKay

I have a Contender that I've just had reamed to 30/30 AI
Came across this thread in search of load data using LVR
... So, is the OPs Contender still alive with that load?
How's case life?

It's been 7 months. That's not too long to bring an old thread back.

Well the rifle is doing fine and I have run 4 more shots with the same load through each case. Case length is the same as it was after the first firing and accuracy is excellent. I just can't see how anyone would snivel about using 2.5 grains more powder in a case that has 4.2 grains more internal capacity.

[rickt300]

Originally Posted by reynolds357

I know what happens when a rifle is fired.
You might want to educate yourself on a Contender. Please "educate" me on how I misunderstand your Contender. I am sure it will go something like "The primer ignites the powder. The primer is slightly pushed rearward before the pressure fully expands the brass and in the process of completely filling the chamber re-seats the primer." You must tell me how you have a headspace of .003. That will indeed be an education. Saami minimum is .063.

So SAAM! minimum is .063? You really need to look into that there Rey.

[rickt300]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Its rather obvious the OP intends to say he has .003 head clearance.

And I'd guess he has more than .003 primer protrusion. How does that happen?
Bolt action rules don't always apply.

I learned enough from ne Contemder 14 in 7-30 Waters. Factory chamber. At the time,that brass was ridiculously expensive. The friend who owned this gun was getting stretch case separations at about 3 loadings.

I'll tell you.OP,what I told him.Headspace on the shoulder.Forget the rim.

Which we tried. It didn't help much It seemed to be a springy gun.

Proper static headspace isn't everything during the dynamics of firing.

I've seen some high speed video that reveals what we think s solid steel is far more alive than many realize

You may find case stretch rings and scrap brass determine Contender max loads

The reason I say I have .003 headspace is because I can get a .003 feeler gauge in between the case head and the breech of the firearm in a case that has no primer in it and still close the frame snugly.

[HiBC]

The reason I say I have .003 headspace is because I can get a .003 feeler gauge in between the case head and the breech of the firearm in a case that has no primer in it and still close the frame snugly.

We have had entirely too many discussions on the terminology of headspace.

I suggest you use the search function and review some of them.

I understand what you are trying to say.

If you want to be technically correct,regarding the term "headspace"in your 30-30 AI Contender.,its the measurement from the breech face to the chamber surface the rim stops going forward against. If you measured it,it would be about .063 or so. Headspace is purely in the gun.

The .003 you describe is properly called "head clearance",.

Its no big deal,but it doesn't hurt to use the right terms.

[rickt300]

Originally Posted by HiBC

We have had entirely too many discussions on the terminology of headspace.

I suggest you use the search function and review some of them.

I understand what you are trying to say.

If you want to be technically correct,regarding the term "headspace"in your 30-30 AI Contender.,its the measurement from the breech face to the chamber surface the rim stops going forward against. If you measured it,it would be about .063 or so. Headspace is purely in the gun.

The .003 you describe is properly called "head clearance",.

Its no big deal,but it doesn't hurt to use the right terms.

So in effect you are saying that headspace includes the rim thickness. Odd that headspace is not measured from the shoulder of a rimless case to the breach or bolt face.

How do you know I am not already headspacing off of the shoulder? To add then including the rim thickness of a Winchester case I get .062, the rim being .059.

[HiBC]

OK. I'll give this one last shot,then you can call it anything you want.

As I already suggested,search "headspace" and review what has already been discussed. The dead horse has been beaten down to a flat greasy spot.

I'm not interested in an ego based whizzing contest. I was gently,respectfully trying to educate you on a fine,but importsnt point.

Your 30-30 was designed the headspace on the rim.The headspace gauges,GO and NO GO, will represent the high and low limit for the breech face to the rim recess. You can cut the chamber properly or check headspace withoutnhavng a round of ammo within 100 miles. Headspace is entirely within the gun and its about building the gun to a standard.

Not all guns headspace on the rim.Some headspace on the shoulder,some on a belt,and some on the case mouth.

In each of those systems,we are taking about the feature that controls how far the cartridge can move forward off of the breech face.

The headspace dimension is from the breech face to whatever chamber feature limits the case forward travel If you choose to use the shoulder,thats fine. You probably won't have a SAAMI correct headspace gauge. That's OK.

As the gun isn't going to change,you are concerned with handloading the ammo to freely load and lock,yet you want to minimize case stretch. All good. You are using a feeler gauge to check HEAD CLEARANCE,not headspace. You are doing it so you can tune your sizng die to optimize your AMMUNITION. Headspace is purely n the gun and has nothing to do with ammunition.

Now,once again, I only mentioned the terminology to help you out.

In post#12,I quote Reynolds

I know what happens when a rifle is fired.
You might want to educate yourself on a Contender. Please "educate" me on how I misunderstand your Contender. I am sure it will go something like "The primer ignites the powder. The primer is slightly pushed rearward before the pressure fully expands the brass and in the process of completely filling the chamber re-seats the primer." You must tell me how you have a headspace of .003. That will indeed be an education. Saami minimum is .063.

Reynolds had you there. It was apparent you did not have the terminology quite down. That's why I tried to help you out.

Its not personal,and I don't want to play whizzing contest.You may take it or leave it.

[Unclenick]

HiBC is correct on the terminology. From the SAAMI Glossary:

Originally Posted by SAAMI

HEAD CLEARANCE

The distance between the head of a fully seated cartridge or shell and the face of the breech bolt when the action is in the closed position. Commonly confused with headspace.

and

Originally Posted by SAAMI

HEADSPACE

The distance from the face of the closed breech of a firearm to the surface in the chamber on which the cartridge case seats.

The problem is that several published sources tell people head clearance is actually headspace. That's why SAAMI said it is commonly confused; people can look the erroneous definition up in a number of places. I've run into them before. All I can say about that is that SAAMI definitions are the ones the industry agrees on by having its member company's representatives vote to adopt them.

All that said, RickT300's use of the 30-30 starting load was maybe a little on the high side, but is not far off. A good rule of thumb for rifle powders in changing case capacity while leaving everything else the same, is to take the ratio of the new case volume to the smaller case volume, square it, then take the cube root of that square to use as a powder charge multiplier to get close to the same peak pressure. It's not exact and isn't the same number you want in small capacity handgun cases, but in this instance, it agrees with QuickLOAD very well.

So:

If the 30-30 case water overflow capacity is 45 grains of water then a Sierra 150 grain FN bullet seated to 2.550 COL leaves 38.2 grains of water capacity under the bullet (powder space), and the 30-30 AI with 49.2 grains case water overflow capacity has 42.4 grains of water capacity under the bullet, that's a ratio of 1.11 to 1. Then, ³√(1.11²) is 1.072. The starting load for LVR in the 30-30 from Hodgdon is 35 grains, and 35×1.02=37.5 grains would be the expected starting load in the AI version. Multiplying the same factor times the maximum 30-30 load, 1.02×38.5 grains = 41.2 grains, so 41.2 grains is the expected maximum for providing the same peak pressure as is in the .30-30AI as was provided by 38.5 grains in the 30-30 with the same bullet and the same COL.