SW M+P9

[Marco Califo]

LA County SD reports changing from Beretta 92 to SW M+P9 causing increase in accidental discharges.

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/...uty-shootings/

[TunnelRat]

Or read another way, "without the mechanical crutch of manual safeties the poor habits of the officers are becoming rapidly apparent."

[jmhyer]

^^^ this ^^^

[JeffK]

Legitimate question for us citizens, what value does switching to the striker-fired safety-free M&P9 add that makes up for the accidental discharges? Do qualities like "fits smaller hands better", "cheaper", "cooler", etc., really matter in comparison to more people (including LEOs themselves) getting shot and eventually killed?

[Will Beararms]

No one in LA or LA County should be allowed access to firearms,
matches or sharp objects. The same holds true for NYC, Chicago, Portland and Washington D. C.

[BigMikey76]

All this really demonstrates is that EVERYONE who is going to carry, shoot, or even just handle a firearm needs to be properly trained in how to do it right. It doesn't matter if you are an LEO, military personnel, a kid who is learning to shoot, or Joe Public with a CC weapon. This is not an equipment issue. Finger off the trigger = problem solved.

Legitimate question for us citizens, what value does switching to the striker-fired safety-free M&P9 add that makes up for the accidental discharges? Do qualities like "fits smaller hands better", "cheaper", "cooler", etc., really matter in comparison to more people (including LEOs themselves) getting shot and eventually killed?

If I hit my thumb with a hammer, is it because the hammer didn't have a safety mechanism, or because I was not handling it the right way? I knew I shouldn't have gotten that cool looking Fat Max instead of the wooden handled one...

[Blackbook]

Originally Posted by JeffK

Legitimate question for us citizens, what value does switching to the striker-fired safety-free M&P9 add that makes up for the accidental discharges? Do qualities like "fits smaller hands better", "cheaper", "cooler", etc., really matter in comparison to more people (including LEOs themselves) getting shot and eventually killed?

The M&P does have a saftey. Please do not put out wrong information by saying the M&P is "safteyless". The M&P has a trigger saftey.

The M&P9mm is available with a manual saftey.

Having or lacking a manual saftey is unrelated to being striker fired. You can have a striker fired gun with a manual saftey, you can have a striker fired gun without a manual saftey, you can have a striker fired gun with other kinds of safties.

Same for hammer fired guns.

Modern striker fired guns are virtually drop-proof.

Police equipment contracts are focused on cost, not saftey, because that's how the government thinks.

[Will Beararms]

It also demonstrates that 50 to 75 percent of the judges we have don't belong on the bench. These cases should never go to trial thus my tongue in cheek response earlier.

[01frida]

My trigger finger is my safety. I own 3 Berretas that have no mechanical safeties and have carried them for years with no problems. Proper holster and removal with trigger finger on side of weapon is a safety.

[Blackbook]

Originally Posted by JeffK

Legitimate question for us citizens, what value does switching to the striker-fired safety-free M&P9 add that makes up for the accidental discharges? Do qualities like "fits smaller hands better", "cheaper", "cooler", etc., really matter in comparison to more people (including LEOs themselves) getting shot and eventually killed?

It's worth pointing out that many European police departments issue handguns with no manual safties, so I'm not sure why you think this is an American topic. Ireland issues the Glock 17 to its police, and Glock handguns were diveloped for and currently issued to the Austrian army.

[JeffK]

The M&P does have a saftey. Please do not put out wrong information by saying the M&P is "safteyless". The M&P has a trigger saftey.

Please do more homework, some of them have safeties but most do not. The LA county article relates to guns that do not, http://www.latimes.com/local/califor...ry.html#page=1

Sure, it's fair to say the LEOs should train more, but the question remains: What advantages do these guns have that outweigh an increase in accidental discharges?

[Old Stony]

It just doesn't seem that difficult to me that someone can't be trained to "not put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire". If you don't pull the trigger, it doesn't fire !
I remember police having problems with officers cocking the hammer on their revolvers instead of using the double action like they were supposedly trained to do.
No fault in the firearms here....

[Blackbook]

Originally Posted by JeffK

Please do more homework, some of them have safeties but most do not. The LA county article relates to guns that do not, http://www.latimes.com/local/califor...ry.html#page=1

All M&Ps have a saftey, the trigger saftey.

The additional manual saftey is the optional part. You should adress your inquiry to LAPD directly if you want to know why they chose to go without that feature.

Originally Posted by JeffK

Sure, it's fair to say the LEOs should train more, but the question remains: What advantages do these guns have that outweigh an increase in accidental discharges?

There are no accidental discharges with a firearm unless something broke.

These discharges were negligent, and no saftey device can prevent negligence.

[seeker_two]

Seems to me that LASD has a much larger pistol-purchasing budget than they do a pistol-training budget.....

[JeffK]

Fine, then, they should be trained more, on doing more than hitting targets at a range (and the trigger safety is a joke, just as it is with Glocks). But the question remains that no one is addressing.... Does it really just boil down to cost?

As a citizen, my vote is clear - keep the heavier more expensive DA/SA Berettas unless and until you can demonstate that your carrying of something else doesn't increase the likelihood of accidental/negligent discharges that might kill you or me.

[Blackbook]

Originally Posted by JeffK

Fine, then, they should be trained more, on doing more than hitting targets at a range

They don't even need a range. This is dry-fire stuff gun owners can do at home.

Originally Posted by JeffK

(and the trigger safety is a joke, just as it is with Glocks).

A trigger saftey is not this "my finger is my saftey hurr hurr" nonsense.

A trigger saftey is a mechanical device which prevents the trigger from being pulled unles something as round as a finger is doing the pulling. Trigger safties generaly look like a lever protruding from the trigger. The M&P trigger saftey is shaped into the lower half of the trigger; the lower half of the trigger is an actual mechanical lever that must be actuated in order to then pull the trigger and fire the gun. All M&Ps have this mechanical saftey lever in the trigger.

The example in your article was of an officer pulling the trigger when he didn't mean to. Trigger safties cannot prevent that; they can prevent the trigger pulling when snagged on clothing.

I don't know that Glock puts a trigger saftey in any of it's guns.

"Manual" saftey refers to mechanical safties which are not unlocked in the normal motion of grabbing the gun and pulling the trigger. "Manual" safties require a movement unrelated to actualy firing the gun.

[JeffK]

Yes, I know what safeties are. You've dodged my question.

[jmhyer]

Yes, Glocks have a trigger safety.

[Blackbook]

Originally Posted by JeffK

You've dodged my question.

I already answered your question:

Originally Posted by Blackbook

Police equipment contracts are focused on cost, not saftey, because that's how the government thinks.

[Will Beararms]

Why is it hundreds of thousands of LE Agencies ------- many with far less training resources than LA County ----- made the transition to the Glock type pistol just fine yet LA County cannot? ( No I do not hate our police. )

[jmhyer]

JeffK,
Yes, it probably is a financial issue. But the fact remains that the M&P is no more or less dangerous than any other firearm. If the four principles of safe firearms handling are adhered to, then all guns are equally safe.

It just sounds to me like these officers either failed to learn how to properly handle firearms or they were relying on the manual safeties of the Berettas to protect them from their laziness.

[Will Beararms]

Maybe it's just me but I do not put my finger on the trigger of any type of firearm until the moment of truth. If I read this right, they rode the trigger of the M9's. I have a fair amount of trigger time with an M9. If you have to ride the trigger in DA mode to qualify, you are not fit to carry one anyway. It is a very easy platform to master. It sounds like some of these people should not carry ANY pistol much less an M9.

[Will Beararms]

And another thing: Trigger control should be muscle memory. It should feel awkward to have your finger on the trigger unless you are about to fire. It should feel natural to have that trigger finger extended straight out against the receiver ----- parallel with it.