Is the Mosin (91/30) a good survival rifle???

[rickyrick]

I thought he was more interested in having a milsurp rifle, with the additional use of being a survival rifle.

But if a survival, or more accurately, utility rifle is his top priority, then his budget can get him pretty close to owning an AR15. He could at least get the major pieces purchased with 400.

The real joy is having all the mags, ammunition, replacement parts and accessories you could ever dream of available almost anywhere in the USA. You'll be able to stockpile anything you need for your AR needs for the rest of your life.

[DPris]

Again- the utility of the Mosin as a survival tool depends on what you'd envision surviving with one.

As a battle rifle for surviving armed engagements, it falls far short.
As a very basic "pull-trigger-go-boom" rifle, it can hunt, it can handle large critter defense, and it can serve in a limited capacity for other defensive scenarios.

It would handle extreme conditions better than many cheap commercial rifles.
You could easily break it down for maintenance in the field.
It has sufficient power.
Accuracy in a good one can be quite good.

Frankly, while it would not be my first, second, or third choice, between it & a Garand as a general hunter/critter defender, I'd take the Mosin.
Much simpler, not as ammo-sensitive in bullet weights, and easier to tote in hand over long periods.

Since the Garand keeps getting itself interjected into this MOSIN thread, I'll go so far as to say I would not choose a Garand as a survival tool in any context- hunting, extreme environments, or gun battles.

And it really has NO place in answering the original question about MOSIN RIFLES.

The question posed was not "Which is better- Mosin or Garand?", it was "Is the Mosin a good survival rifle?"

Why that has to bring in extended commentary on irrelevant Garands is a puzzlement.
Denis

[agtman]

* * * Frankly, * * * between it & a Garand as a general hunter/critter defender, I'd take the Mosin. Much simpler, not as ammo-sensitive in bullet weights, and easier to tote in hand over long periods.

The Garand is as "simple" as a 30-cal autoloader can get and still be reliable in the field. As far as the alleged bullet/ammo "sensitivity" complaint goes, that bugaboo was eliminated when Schuster Mfg invented their adjustable M1 gas plug, which allows you to regulate the M1's gas system to any 30-06 ammo. The Mini-Gs thrive on it with any power level of '06 ammo.

Focus on the facts, my dudenal. It ain't rocket science.

Since the Garand keeps getting itself interjected into this MOSIN thread, I'll go so far as to say I would not choose a Garand as a survival tool in any context- hunting, extreme environments, or gun battles.

Well, that choice is all on you, Scooter.

[DPris]

You seem to feel an irresistible compulsion to insert your Garand into posts that have nothing to do with Garands.
And then you revert to the level of a pissy 4-year-old when somebody tells you your pet is out of place.

Again- This thread has nothing to do with Garands.
And if you try to tell me you can break one down for quick field-strip cleaning at 30 below zero as simply as pulling the trigger & hauling the bolt assembly out, you're delusional.

The Mosin is infinitely simpler to operate (fewer critical parts), not sensitive to ammo (ready to go as is without additional money spent on design modifications), has no gas system to go bad, and can continue operating in conditions that would shut a Garand down.

I've owned a Garand. It's long gone.
I still have four Mosins.
Far from being the best boltgun in the world, but also far from being the worst in sheer survival situation outside a military context.

I've conversed with the guy on Life Below Zero whose wife regularly uses Mosins for subsistence hunting in some of the worst extreme cold conditions that man can live in.
He recommends no semi-auto, his wife uses her Mosin because it works through 30-below temps, snow, glaciers, ice water, and so on.
They've tried other guns, and keep coming back to the Mosin.
The Garand has no place in his life.

By all means keep your beloved rifle.
Just do us a favor & stop endlessly inserting it into threads where it doesn't belong.

Nobody asked you anything at all about Garands.
Denis

[MosinNOUGAT]

Wow, this got sooo many responses!

Lets assume you show up at a store and there's a sign that says everythings free and there's boxes of your favorite 20 round packs (not 223/556, 7.62x39).

Just so you know mosins shoot 7.62x54R cartridges, not x39 which most ak's/sks rifles shoot. Thanks anyway.

Also I do agree with many that too many Garands have been inserted into this thread!

This thread, too, has gone far too deep down the rabbit hole, and I'm thinking that maybe we should kill it?

Thanks, guys. Really appreciate it!

[rickyrick]

I think it has basically morphed into the other thread.

When I replied to this thread I honestly thought I was replying to your other thread... Which is a milsurp for survival.

[MosinNOUGAT]

Ya, it has sure turned into that

[ThomasT]

The Garand is as "simple" as a 30-cal autoloader can get and still be reliable in the field. As far as the alleged bullet/ammo "sensitivity" complaint goes, that bugaboo was eliminated when Schuster Mfg invented their adjustable M1 gas plug, which allows you to regulate the M1's gas system to any 30-06 ammo. The Mini-Gs thrive on it with any power level of '06 ammo.

Focus on the facts, my dudenal. It ain't rocket science.

The AK and SKS are 30 caliber rifles and I bet they are more reliable than the Garand ever thought about being. And they don't need an adjustable gas plug to keep from bending the Op Rod.

And what is with the childish "dudenal"? Your profile says you are a LEO. Do you work with juveniles or middle schoolers? Why do you refer to the posters here like that?

[MosinNOUGAT]

True...I always see him calling people "AR dudenals" or "Garand dudenals" or "Mosin dudenal." Doesn't make any sense

[Josh Smith]

I really like the Mosin. It's tough and reliable. It has gotten a bad rep due to the non-fitted refurbs out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_u_u4d8UYA&t=3s <----- They should work like that.

I'druther use a semi-auto to fight with, but the Mosin-Nagant makes a find general-purpose rifle that you don't have to baby.

Regards,

Josh

[armoredman]

Wasn't the M1 Garand the rifle at the Frozen Chisin that froze up, and soldiers had to urinate on the operating rods to get the warm enough to work? Maybe I'm remembering something else. Always wanted a Tanker version, too.

I like a smaller, lighter bolt action for a long unfortunate walk in the woods rifle;



I he for no bad times, but ten rounds in the ready mag plus a very fast 5 in the buttstock doesn't hurt. Spare mags or boxed/bandoliered ammo isn't too bad to carry. Unfortunately, it is not a military rifle, or milsurp. Just what I have. Funny thing is, my go to rifle for a while when I was dirt freaking poor was a Mosin M-38.

[Josh Smith]

To be fair, that was likely a maintenance issue.

The Germans had troubles with their K98k Mausers in Russia.

Lightly lubing with diesel fuel or leaving dry would have helped a lot.

A few winters ago when we had arctic temps here I was out shooting rimfire. A few CCI rounds sqibbed out or just failed to light completely. I never did figure out why.

Neither do I know whether that would extend to center fire.

Regards,

Josh

[kraigwy]

I hate to vary from the Mosin topic, but I have to add something here about Gas Guns freezing up.

ALL GUNS FREEZE UP, Gas, Bolt, whatever.

I ran the AK NG Marksmanship Unit in Alaska for many years, and was responsible for marksmanship training and qualification.

I was also CO of an Eskimo NG Company on the Bering Sea. We did most of all our training in the winter and learned a bit about guns in sub-zero temps.

Mainly, ALL GUNS WILL FREEZE. The trick is not to let them sweat and keep them dry. People tend to take their rifles inside the tent, then when they are taken outside, they sweat and then instantly freeze. Bolt guns included.

So keep them dry. No lube, no oil. If you're going to do some extended shooting, then add a bit of LAW after they warm up, when you stop, clean all the oil/grease off.

LAW is a light weight oil that suppose to keep from freezing. Warm or Cold, blowing snow gets mixed with the non-freezing oil and freezes. Blowing snow doesn't have that effect on cold dry metal.

I've seen every sort of bolt gun freeze up, Model 70s, Remingtons, Springfields and even Mosins. The reason is somebody forget to take the firing pin assembly out of the bolt and clean ALL the oil and grease off it.

I'll guarantee you peeing on a froze up rifle at 40 below isn't gonna thaw it out.

Since few of us here will use their rifle in sub zero combat, we're mostly talking about hunting. So its a few rounds at the most. There is zero reason to use oil or grease on our rifles in sub-zero temps.

Mosin's are good for extreme cold because they are sloppy. The were great for the Native subsistent hunters because they and their ammo was cheap.

But their bolts (if oiled or greased) will free up like anything else.

Row your boat from Alaska to Sibera, check their Mosin's, I bet you'll find the bolt assemblies dry.

[Josh Smith]

Kraig,

Right on. Kinda what I was getting at.

Questions:

Have you ever had issues with ammo lighting at low temps?

and

How does this LAW stuff work compared to, say, a light coating of kerosene or diesel?

Regards,

Josh

[kraigwy]

Kraig,

Right on. Kinda what I was getting at.

Questions:

Have you ever had issues with ammo lighting at low temps?

Depends on the powder, all powder is effected at sub zero temps, some more then others. I haven't found any that doesn't work, but zeros change, as does accuracy (with some powders). A rule of thumb is, for every 15 degree change in temps, the impact changes 1 MOA.

Rim Fire 22s have problems because of the lube on the bullet, not the powder per se.

How does this LAW stuff work compared to, say, a light coating of kerosene or diesel?

LAW is quite a bit better then diesel/kerosene. I don't use diesel/kerosene on my guns, but I have use diesel in trucks. It sucks in the winter, even here in Wyoming where it only gets down to 20-25 below. You have to put all sorts of additives and then one heck of a battery system to keep them going. I gave up on diesel trucks, even #1 diesel.

Wyoming is like Alaska, what snow we gets blows around all winter and it will stick to anything that resembles oil or grease, then you get problems. Blowing snow gets pretty fine and it will find its way in ever nook and cranny. People get into trouble with bolt guns because the neglect to take the firing pin assembly out of the bolt to clean off all the oils and grease.

[44 AMP]

I don't know what they are using today (or what they are calling it) but when I was in the service (70s) LAW stood for Lubricant, Arctic, Weapons...

Kraigwy is entirely correct, EVERYTHING FREEZES. Also spot on that no lube is better than the wrong lube in extreme cold.

When I was young, deer camp in the Adirondacks often meant thigh deep snow, and uninterrupted weeks of -20F or below temps. Smart guys cleaned ALL the oil from their guns, AND left them outside (protected from the wearther) so they stayed cold.

Another point (one that applies more to full auto weapons) is that in extreme cold, things get brittle. One of the things we emphasized in training was that for machine guns (in particular), when you began firing, to ONLY fire single shots or short bursts, until the gun "warmed up".

The reason was that until the gun warms up enough for the metal to regain a degree of flexibility, things break really easily. Take a belt fed that has been outside for days in subzero and try to rip off a full belt of ammo without warming it up, and odds are very high something will break.

Fire the same gun in the same condition in short (2-3) rnd bursts, a few times, then rip through the belt and the odds of breakage are much, much lower.

Not much of a concern with sporting rifles, of course, but always a slight possibility with very cold steel.

[DPris]

The primary points I'm trying to make here are:

1. This was a Mosin thread.
2. This was not a Garand thread.
3. The Mosin is not the best military design in the world.
4. The Mosin is extremely simple in design & operation.
5. The Garand is not.
6. Most well-made boltguns will tend to be more reliable through extreme conditions than a semi-auto.
7. The Mosin was built for extreme conditions.
8. The Mosin will fire any military or commercial load without modifications or op-rod damage.
9. Gas actions are generally more temperamental over the long run than bolt-actions.
10. Boltguns are simpler in operation & maintenance in the overall picture simply because the entire gas system (tube/chamber, piston, rod) are not there.
11. The Mosin is not dependent on losable clips for operation.
12. The Mosin field strips in about a second, for cleaning.
13. The Garand is much more involved in field stripping, in both time and processes involved.
14. Both rifles weigh about the same. I find the Mosin carries better in hand on foot; the Garand is fatter at its naturally-balanced carry point.
15. The Mosin can fire light bullets & heavy bullets without damage or modification.


As stated, the Garand would be a better combat rifle.

The Mosin would be simpler in use, can be just as accurate in practical terms (one of mine has outshot with iron sights a scoped $2000 FN precision rifle), is much simpler to clean, has fewer parts to go wrong, and in a NON-combat situation can make a passable survival gun across a very wide range of harsh environmental conditions, which was the question generating this thread.

The Garand is a great rifle, but in a combat role I'd make other choices today, and in a survival role it would come in waaaay down the line in practicality, for me.

Can we get the nobody-asked-for-it Garand out of the way in this thread now?
It's a classic battle rifle, unquestionably.
But this is not a "Which Is Better- Mosin or Garand?" thread.
Denis

[Blindstitch]

Wow, this got sooo many responses!


Quote:
Lets assume you show up at a store and there's a sign that says everythings free and there's boxes of your favorite 20 round packs (not 223/556, 7.62x39).
Just so you know mosins shoot 7.62x54R cartridges, not x39 which most ak's/sks rifles shoot. Thanks anyway.

Just so you know I didn't include 7.62x54R because I think it has fallen off the bulk or compact box of ammo list. If you go pick up a box of 7.62x39 it could come in a nice little square package not surrounded by styrofoam. You could take 8 of those boxes and tape them into a 4 inch cube of 160 rounds. You could tape 3 of those cubes together and it would be about he same size as 100 rounds of 12 gauge. It just doesn't work with the milk crate example.

7.62x54 in the future if not now will probably be PPU or Hornady boxes like common 30-06.

[Josh Smith]

Originally Posted by Blindstitch

Just so you know I didn't include 7.62x54R because I think it has fallen off the bulk or compact box of ammo list. If you go pick up a box of 7.62x39 it could come in a nice little square package not surrounded by styrofoam. You could take 8 of those boxes and tape them into a 4 inch cube of 160 rounds. You could tape 3 of those cubes together and it would be about he same size as 100 rounds of 12 gauge. It just doesn't work with the milk crate example.

7.62x54 in the future if not now will probably be PPU or Hornady boxes like common 30-06.

Hello,

Just an FYI -- not being argumentative -- there's still quite a bit around here. I just talked myself out of buying some at the local gun shop because I handload for it now, but there's still plenty out there. Lots of folks still sitting on it.

Regards,

Josh

[Rangerrich99]

Going back to the original question, "is the M-G a GOOD survival rifle?"

IMO, the answer is unequivocally, "No. It is not a GOOD survival rifle."

It's too heavy.

The trigger is way too heavy.

The bolt is way too stiff.

Most of them are not very accurate.

The safety is a disaster waiting to happen.

However, they are pretty reliable and they shoot a relatively inexpensive round, and the rifle itself isn't very expensive.

That makes it a SERVICEABLE survival rifle.

So, while one could use a mosin as a survival rifle, at this point in history there are much better choices out there to spend your money on.

[rickyrick]

Perfect assessment ^^

[MosinNOUGAT]

Perfect assessment ^^

Really?

Huh, :
My bolt is not sticky at all,
My trigger is not at all heavy,
It's not too heavy,
I never use the safety on my Mosin,
It's PRETTY accurate!

Thanks,
MosinNOUGAT

[rickyrick]

When it does stick... have a 2X4 ready.

I think you said yours was prewar, those are generally less rough.

I like them, but you have to call them for what they are.

I had plans, big plans for mine, but eventually gave up.

The milsurp I did love the most is a No4 enfield, but it's at my ex's house... I won't go near her house ....

My mosin was pristine, and accurate but I found out how many rounds would lock the bolt...

[MosinNOUGAT]

soldiers had to urinate on the operating rods to get the warm enough to work?

I do believe this is true...Also soldiers using old Vickers Maxim MGs used to urinate in the water cooled barrel's water tank when they ran out of water to keep it from overheating... However it was acidic and they had to be cleaned afterwards..

[44 AMP]

Peeing on the action is something we were told to try, in an emergency, if it was stuck shut due to the cold. Its not that there was anything special about pee, but it was warm, and something a soldier always has "with him".

The idea was something warm, that might thaw the action just enough to let you chamber and fire a round. Firing the round warms the action further, and the next round, more, etc., bringing the lube (which shouldn't be there in the first place) up to a temp where it doesn't interfere with function. If its snow& ice, same result. Apply something warm until you can get it loaded and fire it, then firing will keep it warm enough to not freeze shut, for a while...

You could do the same with hot coffee, tea, hot water, a torch, etc, but few of these are on hand in that frigid foxhole.

As I said, it's an emergency measure, but when you have that emergency, and your rifle is frozen shut anyway, what do you have to lose by trying??