what we call hawken rifles today

zworld · May 11, 2020, 03:00 PM

In the 80's I did a lot of research trying to find out what a true hawken looked like, what I found is that most that were half stocked were at least 32 to 34" in barrel length and had two barrel tenons. I bought this traditions in the mid 80's it has a 32
' barrel and the two barrel tenons, it also has a couple inlays. Think I paid less than 300 for it new. Most called hawken today are short rifles of usually 28". With one barrel tenon. I don't think modern copies are very good copies.

Hawg · May 11, 2020, 05:07 PM

Barrel lengths on original Hawken rifles were 30-40 inches with the majority being 34-36 inches. The so called modern Hawken rifles are pretty fair representations of Tryon trade rifles from the mid 1870's (ie) brass furniture, single barrel key.

NoSecondBest · May 11, 2020, 06:34 PM

Robert Redford made everyone in America want a Hawken rifle after making the movie Jeremiah Johnson back in the early 1970's. No, they weren't a true reproduction but no one really cared. TC sold a million or two of them and everyone was happy. Tom Selleck made the movie Quigley Down Under and that followed with everyone wanting a "Quigley" Sharps....never was such a thing. Now they even have a shoot called the Quigley. Unless you're a total purist it doesn't really matter as long as you're having a good time. Civil War enactors are true purists for the most part...in all respects. Right down to the thread count in their cloths, etc. I guess if there is a mountain man reenactment it could make a difference. However for the millions who really aren't that diligent it doesn't make much difference. Pedersoli might have sold more Quigley's than any other model.

Pahoo · May 11, 2020, 06:51 PM

Quote:

I don't think modern copies are very good copies.

Not meant to be, just made to sell. They are Hawken Models, in name only. Back in the 80's there were a bunch that were called Hawkens. ….

Have you ever held or seen a genuine half-stockHawken or plaines rifle. ?????

Be Safe !!!

Tidewater_Kid · May 11, 2020, 09:01 PM

I like what I see here. Might be able to build a fairly close representation with one of these kits. With some research that is.

https://thehawkenshop.com/hawken_rifles.htm

Hawg · May 11, 2020, 09:52 PM

You should get a nice representation of an original Hawken with that kit. By all means do your research. There's a few good books about Hawken rifles. I had a guy build me one from scratch going by blueprints and he did a pretty good job on it.

HiBC · May 11, 2020, 11:38 PM

The Hawken Rifle

Mountain Man's Choice

Author James Baird

Judging by Amazon's listing its out of print. Used ones are a bit pricey.https://www.amazon.com/Hawken-Rifles...9256701&sr=8-2

If you want to build an honest replica,its a good investment.

You might browse the "Track of the Wolf" website. I think you will find proper hardware such as buttplates,patchboxes,trigger guards,Double set trigger bars,Ramrod pipes sight catings,escutcheons and stock keys,and patent hook breeches,along with barrels and stock blanks. Browning solutions.stock stains and finishes,oh,and proper unplated screws.

Did I leave out locks? Siler,L+R,...

I'm pretty sure the Hawken rifles were fitted with iron rather than brass fittings.

At the time I was into building muzzle loaders,I did nt need the catalogue.

A Gentleman and Friend was the late Michael McCormick,Proprietor of Cache La Poudre Rifleworks.
Rather than kits,we could select each part and component from his inventory.

It was a full service Buckskinner shop From Hudson Bay blankets to antique beads to bear claws,tomahawks

Mike....Brokenbutt...To know him then is to miss him now.

l.cutler · May 12, 2020, 03:40 AM

There were a couple of Hawken replicas that were not too bad, Western arms made one. None of those marketed as Hawkens from TC, CVA, Traditions etc. from the 1970's on were even close.

**4V50 Gary** · May 12, 2020, 05:38 AM

There was a talk at the NMLRA last year on the Hawkins. They hauled out a bunch of modern handmade replicas and an original.

There's at exhibit at Daniel Boone's home https://www.nmlra.org/news/first-loo...istory-classic

Hawg · May 12, 2020, 06:14 PM

The CVA Mountain Rifles and the Lyman Great Plains came closer than most and Pedersoli makes a fairly decent one.

Deltadart · May 12, 2020, 07:32 PM

The Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle is a pretty good one as well. From time to time they can be found in very good shape.

bn12gg · May 12, 2020, 07:36 PM

For a number of years I've shot a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle. It seems like a pretty fair representation of a Hawken. Mine is in 50 cal with brass furniture. Nice gun with a rich history of use as the Mormons treked west to set up shop in Utah. Jonathan Browning was John Browning's dad.

.02 David

**4V50 Gary** · May 12, 2020, 07:40 PM

The Johnathan Browning Mountain Rifle has a Nock style breech. The chamber is smaller than the diameter of the bore. See the illustration here:
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/categ...04/1/plan-nock

This requires a scraper to clean. We tried flushing but it's best to make or buy a chamber cleaner. That's easy (if you have a lathe).

bn12gg · May 12, 2020, 08:11 PM

So far so good cleaning the bore and breech on the JBMR. I tend to use a mixture of water and Windex after use at the bench. Once home I double down on the water and Windex mixture but now aggressively clean the bore with Ballistol. A couple days later I come back to clean the bore a second time with the Ballistol. After approximately 5 years of shooting the rifle the bore remains bright.

Thanks for the breech info -- just me, but if you've seen one breech you've seen them all. I'm not an engineer.

.02 David

Hawg · May 12, 2020, 08:55 PM

Quote:

For a number of years I've shot a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle. It seems like a pretty fair representation of a Hawken. Mine is in 50 cal with brass furniture.

Hawken rifles had iron furniture.

Quote:

Thanks for the breech info -- just me, but if you've seen one breech you've seen them all. I'm not an engineer.

Nope. A lot of rifles have a breech the same size as the bore.

Dave T · May 12, 2020, 11:33 PM

Another inconvenient truth is that the Hawken (percussion) Plains Rifle was not the choice of the mountain men. It came along too late, after the beaver trapping days were about done. The scouts, explorers, and early buffalo hunters were more likely users of the Hawken than any mountain men.

Dave

Pahoo · May 13, 2020, 11:47 AM

Quote:

This requires a scraper to clean. We tried flushing but it's best to make or buy a chamber cleaner. That's easy (if you have a lathe).

You really don't need a scraper to clean the Bowl/Cup surface of a breach plug. I have not used "machined" scrapers for a number of years mostly because one size does not fit all. …..

Be Safe !!!

bn12gg · May 13, 2020, 12:27 PM

Hawg-- Re iron furniture on the original Hawkens, that certainly makes sense to me. Hawkens were tools, utilitarian items back in the day. Actually, many of the JBMR reproductions come with the iron furniture. In my case I was drawn to a new in the box specimen with brass and perfect walnut that was too pretty to pass up. I'm a sucker for gorgeous wood and some of these JBMRs are drop dead beautiful.

.02 David

**4V50 Gary** · May 13, 2020, 06:35 PM

I'd find a round stock that fits into the Nock Chamber, face it off on a lathe, drill and tap it to fit your cleaningrod. Then I'd mill one portion flat for the scraper and cut of off again on a lathe. File the rest of the milled part to fit the plug.

Hawg · May 14, 2020, 05:02 AM

I've had pretty good luck just using a bore mop.

Deltadart · May 19, 2020, 03:39 PM

My Browning is a .50 cal with iron furniture. I use a bore mop with a lot of Balistol. So far it has worked well. I will be trying out the scraper.

Hawg · May 19, 2020, 06:25 PM

I put the breech in a bucket of soapy water. The mop will pull water through the nipple and push it back out with some force. You can turn the mop in the bottom of the breech to help loosen fouling but the flush usually does it.

spitpatch · May 20, 2020, 10:56 AM

I’ve been told Ithaca made or marketed a good copy of the Hawkin rifle at one time.

Pahoo · May 20, 2020, 11:06 AM

Quote:

I’ve been told Ithaca made or marketed a good copy of the Hawkin rifle at one time.

I agree and just didn't have the bucks when I had a chance to buy one. It's a beauty !!! Have not seen one, for a number of years.

Be Safe !!!

Deltadart · May 20, 2020, 11:52 AM

Have anyone tried a .45 cal bronze brush, wrapped with the bronze wool from a kitchen chore boy to scrub the bore and recess.

May 11, 2020, 03:00 PM	#1
zworld Member Join Date: September 25, 2014 Posts: 48	what we call hawken rifles today In the 80's I did a lot of research trying to find out what a true hawken looked like, what I found is that most that were half stocked were at least 32 to 34" in barrel length and had two barrel tenons. I bought this traditions in the mid 80's it has a 32 ' barrel and the two barrel tenons, it also has a couple inlays. Think I paid less than 300 for it new. Most called hawken today are short rifles of usually 28". With one barrel tenon. I don't think modern copies are very good copies.

May 11, 2020, 11:38 PM	#7
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	The Hawken Rifle Mountain Man's Choice Author James Baird Judging by Amazon's listing its out of print. Used ones are a bit pricey.https://www.amazon.com/Hawken-Rifles...9256701&sr=8-2 If you want to build an honest replica,its a good investment. You might browse the "Track of the Wolf" website. I think you will find proper hardware such as buttplates,patchboxes,trigger guards,Double set trigger bars,Ramrod pipes sight catings,escutcheons and stock keys,and patent hook breeches,along with barrels and stock blanks. Browning solutions.stock stains and finishes,oh,and proper unplated screws. Did I leave out locks? Siler,L+R,... I'm pretty sure the Hawken rifles were fitted with iron rather than brass fittings. At the time I was into building muzzle loaders,I did nt need the catalogue. A Gentleman and Friend was the late Michael McCormick,Proprietor of Cache La Poudre Rifleworks. Rather than kits,we could select each part and component from his inventory. It was a full service Buckskinner shop From Hudson Bay blankets to antique beads to bear claws,tomahawks Mike....Brokenbutt...To know him then is to miss him now. Last edited by HiBC; May 11, 2020 at 11:55 PM.

May 12, 2020, 05:38 AM	#9
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	There was a talk at the NMLRA last year on the Hawkins. They hauled out a bunch of modern handmade replicas and an original. There's at exhibit at Daniel Boone's home https://www.nmlra.org/news/first-loo...istory-classic __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

May 12, 2020, 07:40 PM	#13
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	The Johnathan Browning Mountain Rifle has a Nock style breech. The chamber is smaller than the diameter of the bore. See the illustration here: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/categ...04/1/plan-nock This requires a scraper to clean. We tried flushing but it's best to make or buy a chamber cleaner. That's easy (if you have a lathe). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

May 12, 2020, 11:33 PM	#16
Dave T Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Location: Mesa, Arizona Posts: 1,456	Another inconvenient truth is that the Hawken (percussion) Plains Rifle was not the choice of the mountain men. It came along too late, after the beaver trapping days were about done. The scouts, explorers, and early buffalo hunters were more likely users of the Hawken than any mountain men. Dave __________________ RSVN '69-'71 PCSD Ret Last edited by Dave T; May 14, 2020 at 12:02 PM.

May 11, 2020, 05:07 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	Barrel lengths on original Hawken rifles were 30-40 inches with the majority being 34-36 inches. The so called modern Hawken rifles are pretty fair representations of Tryon trade rifles from the mid 1870's (ie) brass furniture, single barrel key.

May 11, 2020, 06:34 PM	#3
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Robert Redford made everyone in America want a Hawken rifle after making the movie Jeremiah Johnson back in the early 1970's. No, they weren't a true reproduction but no one really cared. TC sold a million or two of them and everyone was happy. Tom Selleck made the movie Quigley Down Under and that followed with everyone wanting a "Quigley" Sharps....never was such a thing. Now they even have a shoot called the Quigley. Unless you're a total purist it doesn't really matter as long as you're having a good time. Civil War enactors are true purists for the most part...in all respects. Right down to the thread count in their cloths, etc. I guess if there is a mountain man reenactment it could make a difference. However for the millions who really aren't that diligent it doesn't make much difference. Pedersoli might have sold more Quigley's than any other model.

May 11, 2020, 09:01 PM	#5
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	I like what I see here. Might be able to build a fairly close representation with one of these kits. With some research that is. https://thehawkenshop.com/hawken_rifles.htm

May 11, 2020, 09:52 PM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	You should get a nice representation of an original Hawken with that kit. By all means do your research. There's a few good books about Hawken rifles. I had a guy build me one from scratch going by blueprints and he did a pretty good job on it.

May 12, 2020, 03:40 AM	#8
l.cutler Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2005 Posts: 275	There were a couple of Hawken replicas that were not too bad, Western arms made one. None of those marketed as Hawkens from TC, CVA, Traditions etc. from the 1970's on were even close.

May 12, 2020, 06:14 PM	#10
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	The CVA Mountain Rifles and the Lyman Great Plains came closer than most and Pedersoli makes a fairly decent one.

May 12, 2020, 07:32 PM	#11
Deltadart Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 286	The Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle is a pretty good one as well. From time to time they can be found in very good shape.

May 12, 2020, 07:36 PM	#12
bn12gg Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2011 Location: Winter Park, Florida Posts: 470	For a number of years I've shot a Jonathan Browning Mountain Rifle. It seems like a pretty fair representation of a Hawken. Mine is in 50 cal with brass furniture. Nice gun with a rich history of use as the Mormons treked west to set up shop in Utah. Jonathan Browning was John Browning's dad. .02 David

May 12, 2020, 08:11 PM	#14
bn12gg Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2011 Location: Winter Park, Florida Posts: 470	So far so good cleaning the bore and breech on the JBMR. I tend to use a mixture of water and Windex after use at the bench. Once home I double down on the water and Windex mixture but now aggressively clean the bore with Ballistol. A couple days later I come back to clean the bore a second time with the Ballistol. After approximately 5 years of shooting the rifle the bore remains bright. Thanks for the breech info -- just me, but if you've seen one breech you've seen them all. I'm not an engineer. .02 David

May 13, 2020, 12:27 PM	#18
bn12gg Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2011 Location: Winter Park, Florida Posts: 470	Hawg-- Re iron furniture on the original Hawkens, that certainly makes sense to me. Hawkens were tools, utilitarian items back in the day. Actually, many of the JBMR reproductions come with the iron furniture. In my case I was drawn to a new in the box specimen with brass and perfect walnut that was too pretty to pass up. I'm a sucker for gorgeous wood and some of these JBMRs are drop dead beautiful. .02 David

May 13, 2020, 06:35 PM	#19
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	easy-peasy I'd find a round stock that fits into the Nock Chamber, face it off on a lathe, drill and tap it to fit your cleaningrod. Then I'd mill one portion flat for the scraper and cut of off again on a lathe. File the rest of the milled part to fit the plug. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

May 14, 2020, 05:02 AM	#20
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I've had pretty good luck just using a bore mop.

May 19, 2020, 03:39 PM	#21
Deltadart Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 286	My Browning is a .50 cal with iron furniture. I use a bore mop with a lot of Balistol. So far it has worked well. I will be trying out the scraper.

May 19, 2020, 06:25 PM	#22
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	I put the breech in a bucket of soapy water. The mop will pull water through the nipple and push it back out with some force. You can turn the mop in the bottom of the breech to help loosen fouling but the flush usually does it.

May 20, 2020, 10:56 AM	#23
spitpatch Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 171	Hawkin I’ve been told Ithaca made or marketed a good copy of the Hawkin rifle at one time.

May 20, 2020, 11:52 AM	#25
Deltadart Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2015 Location: Washington State Posts: 286	Have anyone tried a .45 cal bronze brush, wrapped with the bronze wool from a kitchen chore boy to scrub the bore and recess.