September 1, 2010, 08:29 AM | #26 | |
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My only points are this: 1) if you can get a CLEO sign-off, then don't fart around with trusts, corps or LLC's; and 2) if you have to fart around with trusts, etc. be very careful what you buy and how much you spend. Personally, while I might spend up to $5,000 in NFA stuff if I had to stick it in a trust, that would be about my "pain threashold" if some new dumb law takes away everyone's rights to use our toys. And just one more thing - the more folks use corps, llc's and trusts to get around having to have CLEO's sign-off on their Form 4's, the more likely it will be that you will see some of these new dumb laws that I spoke of. |
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September 1, 2010, 10:14 AM | #27 |
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As long as we are being hypothetical “they” could just do away will all civilian ownership of all NFA and come get them from everyone. If “what if’s” keep you up at night then investing in firearms in general is not a good idea.
Just because you can’t get CLEO sign-off doesn’t mean you are a bad guy. You might not be friends from childhood or donated any money to their campaign, who knows. The other benefit with the trust/corp. direction is that you don’t have to go back every time to jump thorough the signoff, finger print, photo hoops every time you want a new toy, just print a new copy. |
September 1, 2010, 11:13 AM | #28 |
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Question - If you do a living trust and buy one NFA item, on any subsequent purchase do you need to amend or re-do the trust? I'm guessing you will have the items listed in your trust. I've just started looking into the trust thing.
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September 1, 2010, 11:44 AM | #29 | |
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When every Tom, Dick and Harry are using trusts to buy silencers - let's see how long that's permitted to last. Until then, I just might use one myself to get a couple silencers - I'm not against them at all, just want folks to have their eyes wide open on this. |
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September 1, 2010, 12:40 PM | #30 | |
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If all you are concerned about if getting an NFA item into your hands and could care less what happens to that item after you die, then using Quicken or a form trust still leaves at least these issues to be concerned about:
1. Quicken never updates its language. If one of its forms is later proved invalid in a court battle, you won't even know it happened, let alone know what language needs to be changed in the trust. 2. The Quicken form trust includes an incapacity provision. This allows the person named here to take control of all of your NFA stuff in the event you become incapacitated. You are going to want to pay special attention to how difficult or easy it is for you to be declared incapacitated under form trust terms. 3. Quicken often gives generic advice that negates some of the benefits of a trust. For example, Quicken will tell you to register a trust at the county courthouse. In Texas, this isn't necessary and makes your NFA items (and trust) a matter of public record - which negates one of the advantages trusts have over LLCs. Quicken can be an appropriate way to set up an NFA trust assuming that you don't plan to place very many valuable items in the trust (suppressors or maybe SBRs), can keep the number of people involved with the trust to an absolute minimum, trust the people around you not to screw each other and you over, and have very basic legal needs. If you are actually concerned about who gets what after you die, then a form trust is far from ideal but will probably work assuming your relatives are all honest and have good relations with each other that they value more than your stuff. If you are thinking about putting any type of machinegun in a Quicken trust, that is just a bad idea. Even a cheapo Cobray costs $5,000. Spending $600 is cheap insurance to make sure you don't lose an investment that is only going to increase in value as long as the 922(o) is around. Quote:
This is also why software like Quicken, LegalZoom, and legal form books all come with the prominent "Consult a lawyer in your state" warning on them - to avoid problems with being charged with unlicensed practice. Frankly, I don't have any big problem with unlicensed people practicing law. It is a lot cheaper to do it right the first time than it is to go back and correct the mistakes after people are fighting over them. There is a lot more money to be made in the latter for lawyer - and self-help legal forms are a never-ending bounty of that kind of work. |
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September 1, 2010, 01:40 PM | #31 | |||
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Untrue, you can get them under $3k go check out subguns.com. $600 also happens to be the price of 3 additional tax stamps. |
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September 1, 2010, 04:18 PM | #32 | ||
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1. The lawyer wants to continue a good customer relationship from you because he wants your future business; while Quicken may also want your future business, it probably isn't economical for them to give you that level of attention. 2. If I draft an NFA trust (hypothetical only, I don't do NFA trusts because I already have plenty of work), you can bet I am high on the list of people who hear about it if that trust is declared invalid. I've got an immediate interest (in the form of avoiding malpractice and ethics complaints) in correcting any additional problems before they make it to court. If somebody uses a Quicken form and it is invalid in a certain state, Quicken has a lesser interest in fixing that because they aren't responsible for the error since they were not the ones practicing law - and that is assuming Quicken ever finds out that it was their form that was invalidated in Case X in Podunk County District Court. Quote:
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September 1, 2010, 10:38 PM | #33 | |
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Raisitup |
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September 2, 2010, 09:15 AM | #34 | |
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September 2, 2010, 10:16 AM | #35 | |
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Quicken on the other hand doesn't have that problem.They make it very clear they aren't offering you legal advice and advise you to get an attorney. If one of their trusts is declared invalid, they don't have any risk - and in any case there is a better than average chance that it isn't the form that is the problem; but the way the person who filled it out tried to use it (because not being legal experts, they didn't know any better). The second issue you mention above (the legislature invalidating trusts that were completely legal by changing the law) rarely happens because people get upset when the laws regarding property ownership are invalidated on a widespread basis. However, if it did happen, I'd probably send a letter out to all of my clients (even those I had not done trusts for) highlighting the change and encouraging them to update their trusts - because that generates more work for me (again hypothetical). |
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September 2, 2010, 10:45 AM | #36 | |
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This would make the extra costs a lot easier to swallow. How do you know when the above occurs and how often does it happen. |
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September 2, 2010, 01:07 PM | #37 |
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Assuming you mean "How often is a grey area of trust law clarified by a court decision?", the answer is probably somewhat often. Again, I don't do trust law so I couldn't speak intelligently to that. I do a lot of property related law and I subscribe to the state bar reporter for that. Even with property being a fairly settled area of law, there are still 3-8 cases highlighted every quarter because they shed new light on the court's interpretation of certain law or precedent.
However, the times where those changes were actually relevant to something I drafted or used in a legal matter is more rare. I can only think of one example in the last two years. |
September 3, 2010, 10:20 AM | #38 |
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I also believe do it yourself NFA trust are fine if it works out for you-
Several trust have been kicked back by NFA branch because standard run of the mill trust have a tendency to allow the maker/grantee (you) also a beneficiary- That is a no-no with ATF Legal. They must also be Revocable or else you wouldn't be able to amend them as you purchase other NFA. The grantee (you) can be a trustee.Thats it. I also think these NFA trust can also be used to hold other property like standard trust can do making them more useful. I have several Irrevocable trust I have set up over the years but they are for estate planning and protection in that I am the beneficiary and upon my tearful demise another beneficiary steps in to it. Funds continue to flow to her without a time period waiting for a Court to probate a portion for her to live on while heirs attempt to cause a problem. My wife would be the sole beneficiary of the NFA trust also until such time as a younger future heir can be appointed. I would only do one if there was something I wanted and didn't want to bother with a CLEO- HE will sign it just takes them forever- He has done 7 for me. Using it to allow other trustees to use or possess the NFA items is not my intent. |
September 17, 2010, 08:43 PM | #39 |
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A little on-line HELP
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/form4.html
He has pfd's of completed forms for clarification and your convenience. I used his forms in July and got my approved stamp last week. |
September 20, 2010, 08:14 AM | #40 | |
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September 20, 2010, 09:36 AM | #41 |
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She wouldn't be the trustee,beneficiary AND grantor/settlor. Being all three is typically a problem for a trust in most states.
Being two of those, isn't always a problem. The inheritance issues and how the NFA items pass to my wife and kids are why I went the lawyer route. I was fortunate to be able to find an attorney who is an NFA owner,and does these trusts routinely for a relatively low fee. |
September 21, 2010, 04:24 PM | #42 |
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easiest way is to find a local ffl who does his trusts like i did. he sent me a packet with the trust and all insrtuctions and the envelope preadressed. for 40 dollars.
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