Should I??

[scroungydog]

First let me start by saying hello, im a long time browser, but I just registered and this is my first post.
Anyways, to my topic. I know this is a C&R thread, and I apologize in advance. But I picked up a type 38 last week to turn into a sporter. Now before I go any further, I only "bubba" guns that are parts guns or already hacked, and I do collect original milsurps. However, I love to take a hacked milsurp and giving it new life as a custom gun rather than a pos. Anyways back to topic.
I bought this t38 to turn into a sporter as it is missing the bolt. The rifling is great, and metal is nice, and it was only $20. So I grabbed it. But when I got home I realized what I had. It is a concentric circle t38 in good shape, the metal is great the wood is ok. It has the cleaning rod, and it doesn't appear to be a restamped gun. It looks as if it came off the line as a concentric circle. Other then missing the bolt and the wood looming lime it went through a war (sarcasm) its in near perfect shape.
so now to my question. Should I sporterize this gun or buy a bolt and see if I can trade it for a t38 that has been ground. If it had the matching bolt it would be an easy choice, but I bought it as a project and its not original, so im stuck at this decision. I am set on a t38 sporter, and I already have a matching mum intact t38 in my collection. So know im not trying to cut any or all guns, but I love the arisaka action and I feel it makes one of the best sporters out there (I love my t99 scout rifle)
Might I mention this will not be a bubba job. I will be doing my own work, but I am apprenticing at a gunsmith shop and have a retired gunsmith to help me if need be. But please help, the angle on my shoulder is saying to save it and the devil on my other is saying to sporterize it like I planned. If I could trade it for a non-matching or ground one I would. But I don't know. HELP!!!!!

[tahunua001]

ahh, quite a dilemma to be sure. the CC receivers are rare indeed but the lack of a parts matching bolt does hurt the value. the problem is that even with a new bolt from numrich that CC receivered gun still has the monetary value of a parts matching, mum removed type 38.

me being an arisaka lover would personally get the bolt and keep it around as a shooter, the CC is harder and harder to come by as more and more are sportered and they will appreciate in value much faster than mum stamped rifles. and who knows, maybe one day you'll get one with a matching serial number, no idea the serializing scheme on the CCs but if they matched the mum style then there are at least a dozen bolts out there with the same number on them

or if you don't want a mix master arisaka lying around you could trade it as is for a de-mumed t38 and sporterize that. I've seen a few sporterized arisaka that were works of art, I would love to hand one that was tastefully done but I would also rather have a CC parts matching rifle instead so you can take that for what it's worth.

[scroungydog]

I would like to trade it to someone who will restore it. I would be happy with an already bubba'd t38. I will even buy a non matching bolt to put in it first. Im not so much concerned with the value as I want an arisaka to sporterize. But I also don't want to ruin a cc receiver. I would be willing to trade it for a much lower value t38 so I could make my sporter and preserve the history of the cc. I hate when I get stuck in spots like this. Why can't I either be bubba or a purist. Being both is a headache. Anyone have a bubba'd t38 lying around

[tahunua001]

nope but I'd gladly take that t38 off your hands and I'll even give you more than $20 for it

[scroungydog]

Yea, I figured for $20 I got a pretty good deal. Lol.
Maybe I will just get a good stock and mismatch bolt until I get lucky and stumble on the right numbered bolt for it. Then put the wood back on and find a bubba'd one to put in the sporters stock. I can't bring myself to cut the cc, even if it was a part/project gun.
and by the way, I picked up a t99 for $50 and an m44 for $50 from this same person. He said he had 4-5 more "worthless" guns he would gladly sell me. Supposed to get them this Saturday. Ill gladly take them off his hands. He thought the t38 was an old worthless shotgun. Lol.
But at any rate, im not sure what to do with this cc.
And where can I find out about the serial numbers on the cc guns. I don't know much about the cc guns.

[tahunua001]

neither do I I'm afraid. there used to be a great site that I had bookmarked that had a great deal of information with serial range production dates, markings, models, accessories, ETC but it has gone dark in recent months. I'm hoping that means it's just being updated but for now I'm stuck with no point of reference.

[tahunua001]

found the info in a new webpage.
http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html
according to it there were only 4100 of these rifles made between nagoya and kokura factories so that makes them one of the most rare battle rifles of the time right behind the springfield 1903A4.

further EDIT:
a little bit better news. it appears that the CCs follow the same serial scheme, though in smaller numbers but if they have the same parts serial scheme as my T44 and T99 then only the last 3 digits of the serials appear on the bolts which would mean you have a much healthier pool to draw from if you wanted to force match numbers.

[scroungydog]

You are an amazing person. It still wont be true matching numbers, but its a lot better than a mismatch bolt. Ill be doing some more research on this gun now that I have that link. Thank you

[tahunua001]

of course not but force matched is better than unmatched at any rate.

[scroungydog]

So do the cc guns run by the same series markings? From what I read I don't see where it says otherwise so I would think so. Guess tomorrow ill be digging for more info

[tahunua001]

I believe the only real distinction is the concentric circle and the fact that the serials do not run all the way to 99,999. according to the link, concentric circle rifles were marked either on the barrel or underneath the receiver with the japanese symbol for 2(2 parallel lines) inside a circle to indicate second class weapons, or weapons not meant for the imperial military. other than that there are likely no real discernible markings from other type 38s. if you can, post some detailed pictures of the markings and I can make comparisons with my T99 and T44 and see if they are consistent.
I'm no expert though, that link is about the sum of any info I can give you.

[Gunplummer]

I unloaded a couple when auctioned out. The general thought was that CC rifles were used for training purposes because they did not pass the quality standards of the ordnance inspectors. It is best to keep in mind that what you read was usually word of mouth recordings. There still is no absolute reason given as to the how and why of the MUM removable. There is a general agreement among most writers. Just an example. You have to remember that Japan was really starting to break down at the end of the war. I had a T-99 with no serial number that had made it into the war and have seen others. T-38's were pulled from stock and could have been about anywhere with about any markings. I really had some weird marked rifles. I would look around for another beater that at least had a MUM. I like sporter Arisakas. They are the only Military rifle from WWI or WWII that can truly be lightened up into a mountain rifle safely. I still have a couple I kept to hunt with.

[scroungydog]

Mine is a Nagoya serial number 1447. It has not been restamped with the cc. But what throws me with it is that it has the school marking crudely etched on the receiver. Like it was made a cc and then later was made a school gun. The school mark appears as though it was carved into the metal and is just different than the rest of the marks. If that makes since. Ill try to get some pics of it up tomorrow as I will be away from it until then. But were cc guns pulled from service and given to schools like other rifles were? I thought I was fairly knowledgeable on arisakas, but the more I look into this gun I realize how much I don't know. It seems like for every question I answer I get 3 more in its place.

And yes, arisakas are wonderful sporters. They are strong, can be light, accurate, and very under rated. The safety is odd, but no biggy. And in my opinion, in a good piece of wood, they make the best sporter mauser look ugly.

[tahunua001]

CC rifles were made for use by everyone but the imperial military(allegedly) so police and schools would theoretically be the intended users, I think a school marking would be quite at home on a CC receiver but that's pure conjecture on my part.

EDIT:

And yes, arisakas are wonderful sporters. They are strong, can be light, accurate, and very under rated. The safety is odd, but no biggy. And in my opinion, in a good piece of wood, they make the best sporter mauser look ugly.

I actually love the arisaka safety, yes for people that don't use it often or have never used it it is odd but I have found for hunting that the palm twist is pretty natural while carrying and once I've shouldered it a simple flick of the thumb is enough to disengage it, at first I thought it was as bad as the mosin nagant safety but I was very wrong. I used my unsportered t44 for bear season this year and it served well enough until I did something stupid and got it jammed up, luckily smokey was mortally wounded before I did that.

[scroungydog]

The cc is the 8th arisaka to join my collection. I ha an original t99, original all matching complete with dust cover and bayonet t38, an original t38 carbine, a t99 scout rifle sporter, a t99 in milsurp dress rechambered to 30-06 (guess it would be called .311-06, or 31-06, or maybe 7.7-06. Not sure.) , a t99 sporter im converting to a rifled 44-.410, a barreled action t99 im planning to try and go to 7.5x55 Swiss with, a training rifle, and this cc gun. I had a chance about a year ago to get one of the chinese 7.62x39 converted t99 but by the time I got back to get it it was sold. It had the sks barrel and sights. I kick myself everytime I think about that gun. But oh well.
but arisakas are great. And I think I will be breathing new life into this one. As its original form.
And is it normal for the school mark to have been put on as I described this one. Like someone quickly carved it in later in the rifles life. I have no school stamped guns to compare it to.
And how is the 6.5 on bear. I had never really considered it for anything bigger than deer. I know its h&ll on groundhogs and coyotes. My 7.7 scout is my go to hog gun.

[James K]

FWIW, I have read, and it seems reasonable given the low quantity, that the CC guns were made for government guards at civilian agencies (e.g., Foreign Affairs, Interior, and the like, just as we have armed guards at non-military government agencies). But those guards were not considered Imperial armed forces, so their guns did not have the "mum". It is possible that they were for school use, but that seems to me less likely.

Jim

[scroungydog]

Mine has the school mark but it appears to have been added after it had served some time. And it does not have the extra 0's on the serial number that the school models typically get. So it seems it was issued and then later given to a school. At any rate, I have decided to force match the bolt and keep it as a shooter. Now to find another t38 to sporterize

[tahunua001]

And how is the 6.5 on bear

decent enough at 100 yards for an Idaho black bear.

I was using handloads and 140gr nosler accubonds. out of the carbine the best I could do was 2200 FPS muzzle velocity and by 100 yards they are barely going 2000 FPS but it was still enough to make a clean kill. I wouldn't recommend the accubond due to it's horrible performance but I would recommend the cartridge with a nosler partition or speer deep curl bullet. nosler recommends a minimum of 1800 FPS to reliably expand but at 2000 the bullet split in half and both halves took off in 90 degree angles from impact. I lucked out and one half hit the heart and the other half took the liver but it could have easily missed any vitals and been a superficial wound.
the long rifles apparently get a good 400 FPS more velocity than the carbines so they would be better suited to hunting past 100 yards.

[scroungydog]

Well I guess they work pretty good. Lol. Accubonds are great, but I have been on a woodliegh (spelling?) Kick. Both of my 38's love them and performance is amazing. The 7.7's don't do to shabby with thin either. Ill have to get some Accubonds and try em out. Once again guys. Thank you for all of your help.
By the way, im bad with technology, how do I post pics. Gonna try to get some pics of it up tonight or tomorrow

[tahunua001]

I have a dummy account with photobucket.com that I use to host all my gun pics and get the direct link URLs. I never did figure out how to post from my personal collection.

[scroungydog]

Ok, my phone won't get a good pic so I will have to get my wife to take some pics of it.