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March 8, 2013, 04:56 PM | #51 | |
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March 8, 2013, 05:07 PM | #52 |
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Privacy is one facet, and it's certainly a very great concern, but we're talking about giving drone strike legality to agencies that have trouble serving warrants to the right address,killing pets and sometimes innocent people. Imagine what damage a mistake with a drone armed with a Hellfire missile would cause!
Oops, wrong address!
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In my hour of darkness In my time of need Oh Lord grant me vision Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons Last edited by pnac; March 8, 2013 at 05:19 PM. |
March 8, 2013, 05:19 PM | #53 |
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sigcurious, when I was active duty Navy, and we first started putting cameras on non-TARPS birds, there were a lot of restrictions as to how we could conduct training.
In a nutshell, we could not look outside dedicated training areas, where all vehicles and personnel would be part of the exercise. There were huge concerns about violations of privacy if we, for example, decided to practice a vehicle follow with our gear on what turned out to be a private citizen just out for a (perfectly lawful) drive on base. Personally, I agreed with that philosophy, and have not been thrilled to see the government (under both GW Bush and Barack Obama) chip away at the concept of what privacy we should enjoy. Cameras today are much better than they were ten years ago, so if anything our concerns about invasion of privacy should be that much greater. Unfortunately, we as a society have become so accustomed to Big Brother watching us that we tend to shrug it off as normal. Ask Glenn E Meyer about the famous psychological experiment involving the dog, the cage, and electric shocks (learned helplessness); then, ask yourself how we differ from the poor dog. As far as the privacy issue goes, you are correct - it is the sensor gear, and not the UAV. However, the UAV does create a completely different set of safety issues, as previously noted by me and others. First, there is the safety of flight issue for aircraft operating in vicinity of UAVs. Trust me on this, but pilots who have experience operating around UAVs really do not like operating around UAVs. (I am one of those pilots.) Second, there is the issue of the risks and decisions people are willing to make, from the command and control end, when they are at a safe, video-game like remove from the action. This is a big deal. It disturbs me how members here are blowing it off. |
March 8, 2013, 05:22 PM | #54 |
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I can't understand the continual comparison between a Predator and the ubiquotous Bell JetRanger police copter.
Issues of loiter time, avialability, command and control, visibility, and deployment abound on that one. Was there ever any validity to the rumor that the BATFE wanted to buy OV-10 Broncos in 1995? To me, this is very reminiscent of that. I feel like you can make the cause for Predators to be used by CBP along the Mexican border or by ICE in the Caribbean, but that's about it.
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March 8, 2013, 05:33 PM | #55 |
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SPEMack618, I agree with you in all particulars, and I'd add that patrolling some of the Canadian border might also be reasonable use for Predators.
Inland United States? Not so much. As far as the OV-10s go, you'd be surprised... I know one guy I used to work with who left our company to go fly mosquito control at home (he's in coastal GA). The state uses an OV-10 they acquired from military surplus as the mosquito sprayer... Funnier than that (to me, at least) was the AH-1 Cobra in Fire Department livery that used to sit outside base ops at Tallahassee Regional. What a Fire Department will do with a disarmed Cobra is beyond me, but it was still there in 2008, last time I flew out of Tallahassee. |
March 8, 2013, 05:48 PM | #56 | |
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**Might help if I actually post the link! http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ad.main/13501/
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In my hour of darkness In my time of need Oh Lord grant me vision Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons Last edited by pnac; March 8, 2013 at 06:12 PM. |
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March 8, 2013, 05:53 PM | #57 |
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I accept there are technical safety issues with UAVs, however like any other machine these issues are entirely separate from issues surrounding their intended or possible use, in this case surveillance legal or otherwise.
Perhaps one reason I do not find them objectionable is because I limited my response to the known factors and not the possible. The agency that has the predators is CBP, which as both MLeake and SPEMack noted, border use could be deemed reasonable. |
March 8, 2013, 05:54 PM | #58 | |
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And the FD Cobra, pretty neat. I saw a California FD with an H-60 of some variant, referred to as a "Firehawk" in the Rose Parada once. Good point in regards to the Canadian Border too, I forget how pourous it is too. But from what I recall, the Broncos were being purchased with assorted sensors, including FLIR, which in and of itself is relatively harmless I suppose, but also other sensor packages too.
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March 8, 2013, 05:59 PM | #59 |
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How do celebrities sue tabloids for topless photos taken in their backyard? If Google Earth is capable of posting up that photo of their backyard?
Why would our government want to be held to a lesser standard than the National Enquirer? |
March 8, 2013, 06:17 PM | #60 |
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I that it's pretty well established in law that celebrities don't have the same expectation of privacy as regular, non-famous people. They have a very hard time suing tabloids for anything.
But we digress...
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March 8, 2013, 06:20 PM | #61 | |
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March 8, 2013, 07:14 PM | #62 |
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I would like to refer you to my Facebook page bob gray Vernon AZ. and also senator Rand Paul's page.
You will find that a number of different issues are coming to a head which should cause great concern for all 2 A advocates. A number of these issues are purely political and outside the rules of this forum but will have major impact on our sport. Last edited by ltc444; March 8, 2013 at 07:20 PM. Reason: add and amend |
March 9, 2013, 12:00 AM | #63 | |
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But that makes for an interesting read, especially when you consider the killing point for the OV-10, well aside from the extra-legal means of procurement, was, according to that article the hardpoints would be maintained. Now granted as MLeake has pointed out, it would cost a whole heap ton to procue Predators without hardpoints. But the fact still remains, do we want Predators, with or without weapon stations, or OV-10s for that matter, operating inside CONUS, in missions directed towards U.S. citizens?
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March 9, 2013, 07:43 AM | #64 | |
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Don't get me wrong, many of the creative interpretations of the constitution we have seen over the years by courts and politicians worry me. |
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March 9, 2013, 09:16 AM | #65 | |
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March 9, 2013, 01:26 PM | #66 | |
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I don't mean to make light of the situation, it's a sad state of affairs.
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March 9, 2013, 02:07 PM | #67 | |
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March 9, 2013, 06:43 PM | #68 |
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The 9th circuit court has issued a ruling which may curb some of the unreasonable searches which are happening. The ruling stops the search of laptops, cell phones and other electronic devices at the border.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...utm_medium=RSS This may be applicable to the restricting the DHS Survelliance drones on american soil. It would be interesting for some of our attorneys to evaluate this ruling and its applicability to remotely searching homes with these drones. |
March 9, 2013, 08:52 PM | #69 |
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A few years ago camera's were installed along the lower Niagara River in Lewiston, there was much objection to them but them were installed anyhow. It was said they were to watch the river for illegal activity such as people coming across and into the USA illegally. The camera's are remote controlled and now spend more time turned around and watching peoples back yards more than the river. These camera's can zoom in and look right in the windows of the houses and have caused people to keep their blinds closed for privacy. Imagine what they can see and do with drones, more and more it is the American citizens that the government is watching.
Internet chatter about asking Eric Holder if drones can be used to kill Americans on American soil, is this fact or fiction ? |
March 9, 2013, 09:01 PM | #70 | |
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When Holder was asked if drones could be used to attack an American terrorist who was not currently "in combat" (like sitting outside in a café), Holder answered "no". Last edited by ScottRiqui; March 9, 2013 at 09:09 PM. |
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March 10, 2013, 08:34 AM | #71 | |
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A problem remains, however, in that the 9th circuit attached reasonable suspicion rather than probable cause as the criterion for determining whether an invasive forensic exploration of a computer or storage device is constitutional under the 4th amendment. Reasonable suspicion is a horribly vague and easily met standard, as I complained earlier in this thread. Sadly, even this weak but positive 9th Circuit decision will probably be reversed by the Supreme Court. I don't trust a single member of SCOTUS to fully understand the privacy implications of allowing forensic searches, without justification, of any smartphone, tablet, or laptop that crosses the border. It will be all too easy for them to fall back on the principle that border crossings are subject to arbitrary levels of scrutiny, and ignore the 4th amendment completely. After all, the court has no problem with suspicion-less detention of cars for drug searches within 100-200 miles of the border.
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March 11, 2013, 05:10 PM | #72 | |
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March 12, 2013, 11:46 PM | #73 | |
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DHS Drones to determine if person is armed and to intercept cell phone signals
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Read this; http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/09/living...html?hpt=hp_c1 And then Google "did we just kill a kid" and read some of those. We are dehumanizing war and turning it into slaughter. Certainly not everyone involved. But it's happening. And I fear for our claim as the shining city on the hill. And to justify it we'll make it antiseptic like Star Trek's episode "A Taste of Armageddon" seemed so civilized. But it isn't so civilized from the other side. "Though boys throw stones at frogs in sport, the frogs do not die in sport, but in earnest." -- Bion, Greek bucolic poet (~100 BC) (Apologies to whoever's signature I stole.) |
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March 13, 2013, 10:13 AM | #74 |
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Not to disparage the boys and girl in blue, well sage green, who fly the various drones, but in my interactions with them, they all seemed to view war, and thier part in it, as nothing more than a really realistic flight simulator.
Now, I understand that you have to dehumanize the enemy, and I engaged in a fair bit of it myself, but still, at the end of the day, when you have to police up the fellow you put a burst of M855 into, it puts the war, and killing into perspective. Something the drone operators don't see/do. And the fact that my government wants to use those same drones over our home soil scares the bejeesus out of me.
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March 13, 2013, 10:15 AM | #75 |
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Would you express the same concerns over helicopter pilots and bomber pilots? Their bombs and rockets can kill large numbers of people and they rarely, if ever, see the end result. Our bomber crews during WWII certainly were not directly exposed to the results of fire bombing crowded cities.
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