Weird .380 brass question

Nate1778 · June 5, 2009, 01:36 PM

Just got back from the range today, shot a bunch of .380 and was gathering my brass. In the midst of it all I was kinda browsing the head stamps, and noticed a lot of the .380 brass I was picking up was marked 9mm. I know the 9mm Luger is close but these particular shells are identical to my .380. Can I use these to reload for the .380. If so I did not know they marked a .380 casing with 9mm in the states. Am I missing something

cerberus65 · June 5, 2009, 01:51 PM

.380 ACP and 9mm are two different calibers and are not interchangeable.

9mm is also called 9x19. .380 ACP is also called 9x17. They use the same caliber bullet (.355) but that is where the similarities end. The case of the 9mm is slightly longer (by 2 mm, actually) than the .380. The 9mm case is also wider at the base and tapers slightly. The .380 is a straight-wall case.

I am often fooled by 9mm cases when I'm picking up my .380 brass. Usually, though, once I pick one up and get it closer to me I can tell it's longer. Look closely and you'll probably start to see the difference too. If that fails, read the headstamp. The headstamp don't lie. :-)

Edit: one more thought. I have seen .32 ACP marked 7.65mm. So I suspose it's possible to have gotten European 9x17 cases. What's the rest of the headstamp?

Nate1778 · June 5, 2009, 02:16 PM

Yeah I know the difference between the 9mm Luger and the .380, and that is what threw me. These two shells are identical in size, one is marked .380 and the other is marked 9mm. I know the .380 is also known as the 9mm Short but never scene it stamped this way. That is why I am asking if it will reload in the .380. Here are some pics, the two to the left are .380 obviously, the two on the right are the shell in question, it looks identical to the .380 in every way. The head stamp reads 9mmBr.c S&B

dakotashooter2 · June 5, 2009, 02:23 PM

380=9mm Kurtz=9mm short

Since the brass was S&B which I believe is European made, I suspect it maybe came from a market where it is known as and marketed for the Kurtz.

cerberus65 · June 5, 2009, 02:51 PM

Did a bit of Googling...

Looks like the Br. C. stands for Browning Corto or Court (depending on whether you prefer "short" in Italian or French).

Since 9mm Short = .380 ACP, you're good to go.

Sorry I assumed you couldn't tell the difference between 9x19 and .380.

Nate1778 · June 5, 2009, 02:54 PM

Well don't get me wrong, I have tried to get a 9mm Luger into the shell holder a couple times in the past by accident.

Randy 1911 · June 6, 2009, 10:01 PM

Last fall I bought a Sig/Sauer P232 in380 acp and on the side of the slide it is marked 9mm Kurtz. By the way, Sig is made in Germany.

KC9LDB · June 6, 2009, 10:12 PM

yup yup yup. the 9mm browning is generally stamped on import ammo, out .380auto is more common than anything. Same with 9mm Kurtz, Kurtz is German for short so its like a 9mm short. So regardless, if it says 9mm Kurtz, 9mm browning, it is 380 auto, but don't get confused, look twice to make sure. Watch those grain ratings!!!
Check out a Walther PPK, it says 9mm kurtz

**Mike Irwin** · June 7, 2009, 01:06 AM

There's no such word as Kurtz.

The German word for Short is KURZ.

tmd47762 · June 8, 2009, 10:02 PM

Be careful with the S&B headstamps, they also have 9mmM cases that look like 380 almost but are 9x18 Makarov cases. I reload Makarov and 9x19 a lot so I find sorting cases is a large part of my life.

Russ5924 · June 9, 2009, 05:03 PM

Sure someone didn't cut down 9mm cases to .380. Not sure anymore but I remember reading about cutting down 9mm to fit .380 someplace in one of my books?????????

Sevens · June 9, 2009, 07:00 PM

Case head on the .380 is a smaller diameter as well. So if someone actually went to the trouble to cut down 9mm, they'd also have to turn each case on a lathe or something similar to get them to chamber in .380 pistols.

res45 · June 9, 2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Not sure anymore but I remember reading about cutting down 9mm to fit .380 someplace in one of my books?????????

Maybe that was 9mm converted and cut down to 9 x 18 Mak. you were thinking about.

Nate1778 · June 10, 2009, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ5924

Sure someone didn't cut down 9mm cases to .380. Not sure anymore but I remember reading about cutting down 9mm to fit .380 someplace in one of my books?????????

Pretty sure on two reasons, one is the factory looking sealant on the primer, seams like something a reloader would not do for target shooting. The other was I picked up about 200 of them, seams like a lot of work to simply leave them on the floor for me to pick up.

JFN · June 10, 2009, 07:33 AM

I don't know that a cut down 9mm case would fit, unless the 380 chamber was a loose.

.380 has a .374 rim, case OD just above the rim is also .374 and the case is straight walled.

9mm has a .394 rim, case OD just above the rim is .391 tapering down to .381 at the mouth.

They both use the same .356 bullet and if you reload both 9mm and .380 you will notice how much thinner the .380 cases are. They crumple pretty easily if not lined up exactly going into the die.

ZeSpectre · June 10, 2009, 08:54 AM

The case in the photo is Sellier & Bellot 9 mm BROWNING COURT (aka .380 AUTO)

It is factory ammo and can be reloaded and used for your .380 pistol. I will warn you that S&B has TIGHT primer pockets so some of the harder primers (CCI) can be difficult to insert.

Just FYI, same Caliber, Different Name....
.380 Auto
9mm Short
9mm Browning
9mm Kurz
9 mm Kratak (if you are Yugoslavian)
9mm Corto
9mm Scurt
9x17mm

These are NOT, I repeat NOT the same thing as....

9x19mm
9mm Luger
9mm Parabellum
9 mm NATO

Russ5924 · June 10, 2009, 02:21 PM

Now that I have read that I think it was 9X18 they cut down . When I wrote it it just didn't seem right

bignz · June 11, 2009, 04:52 PM

I have factory .380 S&B rounds sitting in front of me right now. They DO INDEED show it as 9mm Br.C.

One thing I like about reloading S&B is that if you pick them up at the range it is easy to see if they are only one-time fired. The red paint across the primer is a sure giveaway. Might check the case you show...it appears to have a chipped mouth.

Crazy Reformer · May 17, 2011, 10:33 AM

Yes the 9mmBr.C. S&B is a european version of the .380acp and to clarify the question about cutting down 9mm Luger to 380,yes it can be done. You need a lathe and arbor to hold the shell then recut the head and case wall to the 380 specifications,and recut the extracter groove and you now have a .380acp. All you need to do is either erase the head stamp information change it to 9mmBr.C. or 9mm Kurz. You could leave just the 9mm also. I would mark the case head with a bright colored marker so that you can find the remanufactured case due to the time spent making it.

DaleA · May 17, 2011, 10:49 AM

Good to know information Crazy Reformer. More work than I'd be willing to do.

You might not get a response from the original poster though as this thread is almost two years old.

lasvegastransplant · May 17, 2011, 10:51 AM

I heard the same also. Trimmed 9 makes .380

Were they marked somehow? I would mark the case if I were to alter it like that. A little dab of paint or something.

FrankenMauser · May 17, 2011, 03:31 PM

Reviving this particular zombie thread is of no real use.

But, what are you referring to with this statement?

Quote:

I heard the same also. Trimmed 9 makes .380

Cutting down 9mm Luger makes .380 Auto?
Cutting down 9mm Luger makes 9mm Makarov?

Both statements are incorrect.

Cutting 9mm Luger does not make 9mm Makarov. It makes a case some shooters use as a substitute, but it's just a blown-out and slightly shortened 9mm Luger. It is not a recommended practice. (Over-sized chambers in cheap or worn out 9mm Makarov firearms make this an even worse idea.)

Cutting 9mm Luger down does not make .380 Auto. It makes "9mm Luger Short"; which has an over-sized rim, an over-sized base, and case walls that are too thick. The cases must be turned or swaged to reduce base diameter; must have the rims turned down; and requires the inside of the case to be reamed to proper diameter. Without doing ALL of those steps, you still just have a modified 9mm Luger case.

m&p45acp10+1 · May 17, 2011, 04:43 PM

I see S&B head stamp which is European it is marked as 9mm Br. (Short for 9mm Browning) Some may say 9mm Kruz, or 9x17mm. The majority of ammo with those headstamps will be imported.

June 5, 2009, 01:36 PM	#1
Nate1778 Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Louisville Ky Posts: 312	Weird .380 brass question Just got back from the range today, shot a bunch of .380 and was gathering my brass. In the midst of it all I was kinda browsing the head stamps, and noticed a lot of the .380 brass I was picking up was marked 9mm. I know the 9mm Luger is close but these particular shells are identical to my .380. Can I use these to reload for the .380. If so I did not know they marked a .380 casing with 9mm in the states. Am I missing something __________________ "And finally, the Baby Bear looked and he said, "Somebody's sleeping in my bed, and the bastard's still there!" But Goldylocks had a Remington semi-automatic, with a scope and a hair-trigger!"

June 5, 2009, 02:16 PM	#3
Nate1778 Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Louisville Ky Posts: 312	Yeah I know the difference between the 9mm Luger and the .380, and that is what threw me. These two shells are identical in size, one is marked .380 and the other is marked 9mm. I know the .380 is also known as the 9mm Short but never scene it stamped this way. That is why I am asking if it will reload in the .380. Here are some pics, the two to the left are .380 obviously, the two on the right are the shell in question, it looks identical to the .380 in every way. The head stamp reads 9mmBr.c S&B __________________ "And finally, the Baby Bear looked and he said, "Somebody's sleeping in my bed, and the bastard's still there!" But Goldylocks had a Remington semi-automatic, with a scope and a hair-trigger!"

June 5, 2009, 02:54 PM	#6
Nate1778 Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Location: Louisville Ky Posts: 312	Well don't get me wrong, I have tried to get a 9mm Luger into the shell holder a couple times in the past by accident. __________________ "And finally, the Baby Bear looked and he said, "Somebody's sleeping in my bed, and the bastard's still there!" But Goldylocks had a Remington semi-automatic, with a scope and a hair-trigger!"

June 6, 2009, 10:01 PM	#7
Randy 1911 Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Location: Western Arkansas Posts: 273	Last fall I bought a Sig/Sauer P232 in380 acp and on the side of the slide it is marked 9mm Kurtz. By the way, Sig is made in Germany. __________________ Been Reloading 27 Years NRA Member Member Old Fort Gun Club www.ofgc.org

June 7, 2009, 01:06 AM	#9
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	There's no such word as Kurtz. The German word for Short is KURZ. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

June 5, 2009, 01:51 PM	#2
cerberus65 Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Posts: 384	.380 ACP and 9mm are two different calibers and are not interchangeable. 9mm is also called 9x19. .380 ACP is also called 9x17. They use the same caliber bullet (.355) but that is where the similarities end. The case of the 9mm is slightly longer (by 2 mm, actually) than the .380. The 9mm case is also wider at the base and tapers slightly. The .380 is a straight-wall case. I am often fooled by 9mm cases when I'm picking up my .380 brass. Usually, though, once I pick one up and get it closer to me I can tell it's longer. Look closely and you'll probably start to see the difference too. If that fails, read the headstamp. The headstamp don't lie. :-) Edit: one more thought. I have seen .32 ACP marked 7.65mm. So I suspose it's possible to have gotten European 9x17 cases. What's the rest of the headstamp?

June 5, 2009, 02:23 PM	#4
dakotashooter2 Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2005 Posts: 498	380=9mm Kurtz=9mm short Since the brass was S&B which I believe is European made, I suspect it maybe came from a market where it is known as and marketed for the Kurtz.

June 5, 2009, 02:51 PM	#5
cerberus65 Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Posts: 384	Did a bit of Googling... Looks like the Br. C. stands for Browning Corto or Court (depending on whether you prefer "short" in Italian or French). Since 9mm Short = .380 ACP, you're good to go. Sorry I assumed you couldn't tell the difference between 9x19 and .380.

June 6, 2009, 10:12 PM	#8
KC9LDB Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Location: Woodridge, IL Posts: 147	yup yup yup. the 9mm browning is generally stamped on import ammo, out .380auto is more common than anything. Same with 9mm Kurtz, Kurtz is German for short so its like a 9mm short. So regardless, if it says 9mm Kurtz, 9mm browning, it is 380 auto, but don't get confused, look twice to make sure. Watch those grain ratings!!! Check out a Walther PPK, it says 9mm kurtz

June 8, 2009, 10:02 PM	#10
tmd47762 Member Join Date: April 30, 2009 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 96	Be careful with the S&B headstamps, they also have 9mmM cases that look like 380 almost but are 9x18 Makarov cases. I reload Makarov and 9x19 a lot so I find sorting cases is a large part of my life.

June 9, 2009, 05:03 PM	#11
Russ5924 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 1,874	Sure someone didn't cut down 9mm cases to .380. Not sure anymore but I remember reading about cutting down 9mm to fit .380 someplace in one of my books????????? __________________ Russ5924

June 9, 2009, 07:00 PM	#12
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Case head on the .380 is a smaller diameter as well. So if someone actually went to the trouble to cut down 9mm, they'd also have to turn each case on a lathe or something similar to get them to chamber in .380 pistols. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

June 10, 2009, 07:33 AM	#15
JFN Member Join Date: July 4, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 45	I don't know that a cut down 9mm case would fit, unless the 380 chamber was a loose. .380 has a .374 rim, case OD just above the rim is also .374 and the case is straight walled. 9mm has a .394 rim, case OD just above the rim is .391 tapering down to .381 at the mouth. They both use the same .356 bullet and if you reload both 9mm and .380 you will notice how much thinner the .380 cases are. They crumple pretty easily if not lined up exactly going into the die.

June 10, 2009, 08:54 AM	#16
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	The case in the photo is Sellier & Bellot 9 mm BROWNING COURT (aka .380 AUTO) It is factory ammo and can be reloaded and used for your .380 pistol. I will warn you that S&B has TIGHT primer pockets so some of the harder primers (CCI) can be difficult to insert. Just FYI, same Caliber, Different Name.... .380 Auto 9mm Short 9mm Browning 9mm Kurz 9 mm Kratak (if you are Yugoslavian) 9mm Corto 9mm Scurt 9x17mm These are NOT, I repeat NOT the same thing as.... 9x19mm 9mm Luger 9mm Parabellum 9 mm NATO __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on" Last edited by ZeSpectre; June 10, 2009 at 02:23 PM.

June 10, 2009, 02:21 PM	#17
Russ5924 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Posts: 1,874	Now that I have read that I think it was 9X18 they cut down . When I wrote it it just didn't seem right __________________ Russ5924

June 11, 2009, 04:52 PM	#18
bignz Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Location: North Texas Posts: 196	I have factory .380 S&B rounds sitting in front of me right now. They DO INDEED show it as 9mm Br.C. One thing I like about reloading S&B is that if you pick them up at the range it is easy to see if they are only one-time fired. The red paint across the primer is a sure giveaway. Might check the case you show...it appears to have a chipped mouth.

May 17, 2011, 10:33 AM	#19
Crazy Reformer Junior Member Join Date: May 17, 2011 Location: Kaysville,Utah Posts: 8	Weird .380 brass question Yes the 9mmBr.C. S&B is a european version of the .380acp and to clarify the question about cutting down 9mm Luger to 380,yes it can be done. You need a lathe and arbor to hold the shell then recut the head and case wall to the 380 specifications,and recut the extracter groove and you now have a .380acp. All you need to do is either erase the head stamp information change it to 9mmBr.C. or 9mm Kurz. You could leave just the 9mm also. I would mark the case head with a bright colored marker so that you can find the remanufactured case due to the time spent making it.

May 17, 2011, 10:49 AM	#20
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Good to know information Crazy Reformer. More work than I'd be willing to do. You might not get a response from the original poster though as this thread is almost two years old.

May 17, 2011, 10:51 AM	#21
lasvegastransplant Member Join Date: May 15, 2011 Location: Vegas Posts: 74	YES THEY ARE CUT DOWN 9mm I heard the same also. Trimmed 9 makes .380 Were they marked somehow? I would mark the case if I were to alter it like that. A little dab of paint or something. __________________ Thinking 4:24/7 is a way of life.

May 17, 2011, 04:43 PM	#23
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I see S&B head stamp which is European it is marked as 9mm Br. (Short for 9mm Browning) Some may say 9mm Kruz, or 9x17mm. The majority of ammo with those headstamps will be imported. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.