Bullseye substitute

Wayneinky · May 9, 2020, 09:08 PM

For target shooting with my S&W 686 6in I have been reloading 38 Special with Berry 148gr DEWC with 2.7 gr Bullseye. I am board to death stuck at home, I thought I would reload some more shells but have run out of Bullseye powder. I have Winchester WST and thought I would try using that powder. Any recommendations for a formula using WST. I also have TiteGroup and Silhouette oh hand as well if one of those would be a better substitute for Bullseye.

9MMand223only · May 9, 2020, 09:14 PM

Here is a list:
http://www.natoreloading.com/fast9mm/
Win244
Red Dot
IMR Red
Sport Pistol
Titegroup
HP38
SW Cleanshot (personal favorite)
Accurate #2
N320

Are all comparable in burn rate/near Bullseye.

big al hunter · May 9, 2020, 09:56 PM

Hodgdon website has data for 38 spl with WST. Google search Hodgdon load data. Select the cartridge, then skip the other selection boxes to the last one and select the powder.

pete2 · May 10, 2020, 10:33 AM

WST is what I currently use in .45 ACP and .38. I wish Hodgdon would bless it for 9 MM..
I know it will work in 9 MM if super hot Titegroup works, WST would work.

Wayneinky · May 10, 2020, 11:13 AM

Thank you both for a quick response.
Alliant Powder’s recipe for a 38 special 148 HBWC bullet is 3.1 gr of Bullseye powder. However it is my understanding that for a very long period of time the go to recipe for accuracy with a revolver shooting the same bullet was to use 2.5 -2.7gr of Bullseye powder. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding.
I am also aware that Hodgdon’s website lists their recipe 2.5 to 2.8gr of WST for the same bullet. Trying to follow the same logic where for better accuracy you use a reduced load of bullseye powder, perhaps you may want to use a reduced load of WST as well. The two powders are totally different so I did not want to reinvent the wheel and thought I would see what others have experienced with WST powder. I am sorry if I did not explain myself more clearly.

**Unclenick** · May 10, 2020, 03:27 PM

Note that all of Alliant's "recipes" are their maximum loads. Download the PDF file of their manual and you will find they expect you to know to knock 10% off those recipe charge weights and work up. So that covers 2.8 to 3.1 grains of Bullseye. Because of the small charges involved and greater sensitivity to exact bullet length and seating depth that high power rifles have, Western Powder recommends reducing maximums by 10% for rifle and 15% for handgun loads. I think that's a good policy and apply it to Alliant data, personally. Western's recommendation would take Bullseye from 2.6 to 3.1 grains for the wadcutter in this instance, and frankly, I know a lot of people who have loaded lower. The fast powders in most handgun-size cases are not sensitive to being loaded low the way rifle cartridges are.

Jim Watson · May 10, 2020, 04:33 PM

On the other hand, for the specific purpose of loading .38 Specials for use in a .357 Magnum revolver, I have no compunction against loading the maximum.

Actual data:
S&W M28 4"
148 gr Speer HBWC
2.7 gr WST = 744 fps
3.2 gr W231 = 745 fps, my usual load
2.7 gr Bullseye = 696 fps

Greater friction of copper plate on steel than waxed lead, I think your Berrys are even slower.

Wayneinky · May 10, 2020, 06:16 PM

Thanks Guys

More they once I have found that what I think I know is not always exactly 100% correct so that is why I like to research here. I always learn a lot for you and your help is always appreciated.

Wayneinky

pbcaster45 · May 10, 2020, 09:29 PM

Here' what I use in my Clark PPC Revolver.

Bullet: Bullet Works Copper Plated 148grn. DEWC
Powder: Hodgdon Titegroup 3.3 grs.
Primer: Federal 100 Small Pistol Match
Case: Federal .38 Special
LOAL: 1.220 (Taper Crimp)
Avg. Vel.: 733.58 fps
ES: 55.64
SD: 20.80

Carriertxv · May 10, 2020, 09:43 PM

Titegroup is very close to Bullseye but runs hotter. I still get better results with Bullseye though.

44caliberkid · May 11, 2020, 07:29 AM

I'm using Titegroup right now, just because it is what I already have. However, I do a lot with Accurate #5. It will do target loads up to mild magnums and works great in auto pistol rounds.

Dufus · May 11, 2020, 05:26 PM

Just be careful using the HBWC and don't push them too fast. They have been known to leave a barrel obstruction without any indications until the next shot.

The DEWC is no worries.

May 9, 2020, 09:08 PM	#1
Wayneinky Junior Member Join Date: April 15, 2017 Posts: 9	Bullseye substitute For target shooting with my S&W 686 6in I have been reloading 38 Special with Berry 148gr DEWC with 2.7 gr Bullseye. I am board to death stuck at home, I thought I would reload some more shells but have run out of Bullseye powder. I have Winchester WST and thought I would try using that powder. Any recommendations for a formula using WST. I also have TiteGroup and Silhouette oh hand as well if one of those would be a better substitute for Bullseye. Last edited by Wayneinky; May 9, 2020 at 09:16 PM.

May 9, 2020, 09:56 PM	#3
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	Hodgdon website has data for 38 spl with WST. Google search Hodgdon load data. Select the cartridge, then skip the other selection boxes to the last one and select the powder. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

May 10, 2020, 03:27 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Note that all of Alliant's "recipes" are their maximum loads. Download the PDF file of their manual and you will find they expect you to know to knock 10% off those recipe charge weights and work up. So that covers 2.8 to 3.1 grains of Bullseye. Because of the small charges involved and greater sensitivity to exact bullet length and seating depth that high power rifles have, Western Powder recommends reducing maximums by 10% for rifle and 15% for handgun loads. I think that's a good policy and apply it to Alliant data, personally. Western's recommendation would take Bullseye from 2.6 to 3.1 grains for the wadcutter in this instance, and frankly, I know a lot of people who have loaded lower. The fast powders in most handgun-size cases are not sensitive to being loaded low the way rifle cartridges are. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

May 10, 2020, 06:16 PM	#8
Wayneinky Junior Member Join Date: April 15, 2017 Posts: 9	Bullseye substitute Thanks Guys More they once I have found that what I think I know is not always exactly 100% correct so that is why I like to research here. I always learn a lot for you and your help is always appreciated. Wayneinky

May 9, 2020, 09:14 PM	#2
9MMand223only Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2014 Posts: 283	Here is a list: http://www.natoreloading.com/fast9mm/ Win244 Red Dot IMR Red Sport Pistol Titegroup HP38 SW Cleanshot (personal favorite) Accurate #2 N320 Are all comparable in burn rate/near Bullseye.

May 10, 2020, 10:33 AM	#4
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	WST is what I currently use in .45 ACP and .38. I wish Hodgdon would bless it for 9 MM.. I know it will work in 9 MM if super hot Titegroup works, WST would work.

May 10, 2020, 11:13 AM	#5
Wayneinky Junior Member Join Date: April 15, 2017 Posts: 9	Bullseye substitute Thank you both for a quick response. Alliant Powder’s recipe for a 38 special 148 HBWC bullet is 3.1 gr of Bullseye powder. However it is my understanding that for a very long period of time the go to recipe for accuracy with a revolver shooting the same bullet was to use 2.5 -2.7gr of Bullseye powder. I may be wrong, but that is my understanding. I am also aware that Hodgdon’s website lists their recipe 2.5 to 2.8gr of WST for the same bullet. Trying to follow the same logic where for better accuracy you use a reduced load of bullseye powder, perhaps you may want to use a reduced load of WST as well. The two powders are totally different so I did not want to reinvent the wheel and thought I would see what others have experienced with WST powder. I am sorry if I did not explain myself more clearly.

May 10, 2020, 04:33 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	On the other hand, for the specific purpose of loading .38 Specials for use in a .357 Magnum revolver, I have no compunction against loading the maximum. Actual data: S&W M28 4" 148 gr Speer HBWC 2.7 gr WST = 744 fps 3.2 gr W231 = 745 fps, my usual load 2.7 gr Bullseye = 696 fps Greater friction of copper plate on steel than waxed lead, I think your Berrys are even slower.

May 10, 2020, 09:29 PM	#9
pbcaster45 Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2010 Posts: 139	Here' what I use in my Clark PPC Revolver. Bullet: Bullet Works Copper Plated 148grn. DEWC Powder: Hodgdon Titegroup 3.3 grs. Primer: Federal 100 Small Pistol Match Case: Federal .38 Special LOAL: 1.220 (Taper Crimp) Avg. Vel.: 733.58 fps ES: 55.64 SD: 20.80

May 10, 2020, 09:43 PM	#10
Carriertxv Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2013 Posts: 268	Titegroup is very close to Bullseye but runs hotter. I still get better results with Bullseye though.

May 11, 2020, 07:29 AM	#11
44caliberkid Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2017 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,104	I'm using Titegroup right now, just because it is what I already have. However, I do a lot with Accurate #5. It will do target loads up to mild magnums and works great in auto pistol rounds.

May 11, 2020, 05:26 PM	#12
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	Just be careful using the HBWC and don't push them too fast. They have been known to leave a barrel obstruction without any indications until the next shot. The DEWC is no worries.